How does a layman understand 'any permitted route'?

[cadder toad]

Glasgow to Shrewsbury is not a hypothetical example! I made this journey myself recently. I wanted to go via Crewe, so I could do a bit of trainspotting. However the price was steep. What I ended up doing was advance single to Warrington, Northern to Chester and then on to Shrewsbury. I think a saving of £70-80 via Crewe from memory, significant anyway. Neither Trainline nor Avanti offer a fare via Chester today - I looked again to see if I could confirm the fares I paid. But - to me - via Chester seems like a more direct route than via Crewe. Apologies if I'm OT.

 

[yorkie]

Some routing descriptions are plain confusing. There is an Anytime Single fare from London Terminals to Selby described as 'Via Doncaster', which is slightly cheaper than the Any Permitted fare. However, most people travelling from London to Selby would go via the ECML and so would in any event travel via Doncaster. What it actually means is 'Not via York'. How is anyone meant to know that?

You are 'meant' to use a journey planner to plan the journey and then be issued with the appropriate fares accordingly.

While not directly comparable modes of transport, the same principle applies on coaches, planes etc.

So I have had this discussion at Euston. About London to Manc via Sheffield being a permitted route or not, On a Standard return ticket London to Manc.

Now I can buy the ticket Manchester via Sheffield to St Panc and I can get the off peak return price. No layman is going to check there is a more expensive ticket for this route via chesterfield. So would the passenger get fined. The ticket is actually from Manchester stations to London stations.

I will have a look to see if it is valid or not

See if what is valid? If you are asking if Manchester to London is valid via Sheffield, the answer is yes. Some fares are specifically routed via Chesterfield, but Any Permitted is valid too.

Here's a small anecdote from myself - I once travelled Ely to Cleethorpes via Retford and Gainsborough - pretty reasonable right? It was only after that I realised that wasn't a technically permitted route - they only had mapped routes via Doncaster or Newark/Lincoln iirc, guess they hasn't bothered putting the parliamentary service in! But it was so obviously reasonable that nobody really questioned it.

The infrequent (not quite technically parliamentary, which means only once a week) service does indeed take a non-permitted route. It is clearly a mistake as it would be a permitted route on a Cleethorpes to Peterborough ticket. No-one is going to question it.

Glasgow to Shrewsbury is not a hypothetical example! I made this journey myself recently. I wanted to go via Crewe, so I could do a bit of trainspotting. However the price was steep. What I ended up doing was advance single to Warrington, Northern to Chester and then on to Shrewsbury. I think a saving of £70-80 via Crewe from memory, significant anyway. Neither Trainline nor Avanti offer a fare via Chester today - I looked again to see if I could confirm the fares I paid. But - to me - via Chester seems like a more direct route than via Crewe. Apologies if I'm OT.

If you wish to travel via Chester, specify via Chester on any booking site. If you use a site which only offers through fares, you will only get results if it is a permitted route.

Alternatively sites such as ours will offer the route irrespective of that; if a through fare is not valid we will offer it with a suitable combination of tickets (unless you turn splits off).

 

[Watershed]

While not directly comparable modes of transport, the same principle applies on coaches, planes etc.

I think the thing that makes rail unique is the combination of the complexity of the network (there could be lots of ways to make a journey) and not needing to book onto a specific train to be able to use it. This means that if you want to take anything other than the train(s) in your itinerary when booking, it may not be obvious what is and isn't permitted.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The average person would look online find times and then buy the suggested ticket. The idea of checking which other ways they could travel on that ticket doesn't normally enter into anyones thinking outside of rail forums.

 

[cadder toad]

If you wish to travel via Chester, specify via Chester on any booking site. If you use a site which only offers through fares, you will only get results if it is a permitted route.

Alternatively sites such as ours will offer the route irrespective of that; if a through fare is not valid we will offer it with a suitable combination of tickets (unless you turn splits off).

Thanks for that advice - I'll be checking the forum ticket site in future! A lesson learned there - a cheap fare all on one itinerary.

It appears that Glasgow-Shrewsbury via Chester is not a permitted route - as it doesn't come up in Avanti or Trainline journey planners. This seems counter intuitive to me

 

[yorkie]

It appears that Glasgow-Shrewsbury via Chester is not a permitted route - as it doesn't come up in Avanti or Trainline journey planners. This seems counter intuitive to me

It is, but that is what we are here for!

Train Companies don't appear to be interested in providing itineraries that are quicker (than the quickest route via a permitted route), have fewer changes, extra change time, lower fares, or any of the other services we provide.

It's more about saying: this is the journey (often via the fastest permitted routes only), this is the through fare price, take it or leave it.

It's not run as a public service or run to provide an enhanced customer experience; people generally use rail because they have to, and most users will pay whatever the cost is. Some will leave it, which is a relief to TOCs and the DfT as it avoids too much investment being required in catering for every prospective passenger who may otherwise travel by rail.

Train companies could use the same system we use, if they wish. But they choose not to.

We can't change the way railways are run but anyone who wants these additional options, can get them by booking with us.

 

[TUC]

The average person would look online find times and then buy the suggested ticket. The idea of checking which other ways they could travel on that ticket doesn't normally enter into anyones thinking outside of rail forums.

Some will do that if they have a specific auery or want a ticket for a specific journey. My point about the London To Selby 'via Doncaster' ticket that is actually 'not via York' is, given that travelling via York or Leeds are both commonly used routes for that journey, a person may change their mind at a late stage what specific service they will travel on and think 'that journey goes via Doncaster so there is nothing else to check'.

 

[yorkie]

Some will do that if they have a specific auery or want a ticket for a specific journey. My point about the London To Selby 'via Doncaster' ticket that is actually 'not via York' is, given that travelling via York or Leeds are both commonly used routes for that journey, a person may change their mind at a late stage what specific service they will travel on and think 'that journey goes via Doncaster so there is nothing else to check'.

Yes the routeing choice makes no sense, but is typical of the lack of attention to detail put in place by some of the people who set rail fares.

On the plus-side, the fact it doesn't state it isn't valid via York on the ticket means that it would nearly always be accepted by York (except by a very small proportion of Guards who read the negative easements) without being charged the excess.

If someone did travel via York then the Guard would be entitled to charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare for the journey (including any Railcard discounts); half the difference in the case of a return, so it wouldn't be much to pay.

 

[faltskog36abba]

My family were waiting at Blackpool north for our Manchester bound train -About 20 years ago. We were informed our train on that line was delayed by an hour or so due to a reason I can no longer remember. I said lets jump on the York train to Blackburn and change for Manchester - I thought it would be a change of route and a nicer train. The conductor explained though that - Northern spirit and first north western are different companies and one would abstract revenue from another company, I got it and a lesson learned, However my family didn't understand and still don't- Some people have never heard of Routing rules guide.

 

[6Gman]

Or they ask a member of staff who also says that it's valid, because it is.

If only it was possible to buy your ticket from a trained member of staff who could advise you of validity ...

They could be placed in a position at major stations so you'd always know where to find them.

 

[Dai Corner]

If only it was possible to buy your ticket from a trained member of staff who could advise you of validity ...

They could be placed in a position at major stations so you'd always know where to find them.

Most people seem to prefer to buy from a retailer who can give them a range of price/flexibility options, has infinite patience while they try different times and routes and produces an itinerary which is guaranteed to be valid. Some will even offer cheaper combinations than the ticket office without prompting and find fares and routes you'd never have thought of.

Also

 

[TUC]

If only it was possible to buy your ticket from a trained member of staff who could advise you of validity ...

They could be placed in a position at major stations so you'd always know where to find them.

Why would I want to cause a hold-up in a queue whilst different options were tried out, to say nothing of relying on the patience and knowledge of the person behind the counter? Much more relaxing to do it myself in my own time.

Yes the routeing choice makes no sense, but is typical of the lack of attention to detail put in place by some of the people who set rail fares.

On the plus-side, the fact it doesn't state it isn't valid via York on the ticket means that it would nearly always be accepted by York (except by a very small proportion of Guards who read the negative easements) without being charged the excess.

If someone did travel via York then the Guard would be entitled to charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare for the journey (including any Railcard discounts); half the difference in the case of a return, so it wouldn't be much to pay.

The difference in the Anytime Single fare without a railcard is just under £15, so its a fairly significant additional cost.

 

[Dai Corner]

Why would I want to cause a hold-up in a queue whilst different options were tried out, to say nothing of relying on the patience and knowledge of the person behind the counter? Much more relaxing to do it myself in my own time.

Older readers will remember Travel Centres at large stations which dealt with the complex enquiries and sales while the normal ticket office churned out the straightforward walk-up tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Older readers will remember Travel Centres at large stations which dealt with the complex enquiries and sales while the normal ticket office churned out the straightforward walk-up tickets.

Travel Centres are still a thing on LNER! But at stations like York you have an absolutely miniscule proportion of the demand that was once there. What remaiins now serves the purpose of the Travel centre for the most part and, despite only 1 or 2 people serving, the queuing time is still less than the old days of the separate Travel centre + ticket office with loads of windows (which is now Sainsbury's).

Times change!

Before it was easy to find this information online, you were entirely at the whim of what the staff would be like, which was very variable. And if you turned up a second too late for the Travel Centre, some staff would refuse to deal with any requests which were not for tickets for immediate travel. We're in a better position today.

 

[TUC]

Older readers will remember Travel Centres at large stations which dealt with the complex enquiries and sales while the normal ticket office churned out the straightforward walk-up tickets.

So something available for those in cities and larger towns and not much use to other people.

 

[Dai Corner]

So something available for those in cities and larger towns and not much use to other people.

There wouldn't have been enough custom for both a standard ticket office and a Travel Centre at smaller station. The ticket office fulfilled both functions (sometimes to the frustration of passengers wanting a walk-up ticket stuck behind one wanting to enquire about a proposed future journey that didn't result in a sale).

 

[Class800]

As noted, "the average person in the street" is not using obscure routes and is generally getting from A to B, and will use direct trains or use a journey planner which will only show permitted routes.

Maybe but I asked my friend - who is not into rail at all, is much more into fashion and socialising - and she was using split ticketing, the 'occasional' finishing short and loved the idea of finding obscure routes - particularly if they involved amusing sounding stations. Yet she has no idea what a routing guide is, what NRCoT means or what trains numbers are for! Everyone is different. Another 'normal' (i.e. non-enthusiast) was travelling Exeter to Nottingham and thought nothing of having 12 tickets in his pocket for the return, 6 split tickets each way!

 

[Haywain]

Maybe but I asked my friend - who is not into rail at all, is much more into fashion and socialising - and she was using split ticketing, the 'occasional' finishing short and loved the idea of finding obscure routes - particularly if they involved amusing sounding stations. Yet she has no idea what a routing guide is, what NRCoT means or what trains numbers are for! Everyone is different. Another 'normal' (i.e. non-enthusiast) was travelling Exeter to Nottingham and thought nothing of having 12 tickets in his pocket for the return, 6 split tickets each way!

And will have got their split tickets through using a journey planner? That being the case it backs up what you have quoted me as saying.

 

[Class800]

And will have got their split tickets through using a journey planner? That being the case it backs up what you have quoted me as saying.

One used train line other used train split

 

[Haywain]

One used train line other used train split

Both of which are journey planners.