How does the 5, 9 or 10 car allocation work on LNER's new Azuma?

[t52192]

Just looking to book some tickets for June when the new Azuma will be running hopefully from Leeds to London.

This appears to be the new seat plan
lforums.co.uk/threads/may-2019-timetable-pdf-files.180558/

Does anyone know which routes, time slots will be allocated for whether the train uses 5, 9 or 10 cars? The seat plan on the LNER site seems to be the old train even though June is selected.

lastly, it says this for the Quiet Coach on Azumas "Just so you know, a handful of Azuma trains won’t have a quieter coach onboard." Any ideas on what those handful of services could be??

Really looking forward to a go on these new long-awaited trains.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Based on information posted in other threads, the best bet for catching an Azuma would be booking on either the 1103 Kings Cross - Leeds service or the 1345 Leeds - KGX. These services are currently run using the HST set used for the daily Hull service, which is planned to be the first to be swapped to a 9-car Azuma. I'm booked to use the 0803 KGX - Leeds service on June 17th, which according to the seat map is also planned to be a 9-car Azuma (and would mean the 1045 return working to KGX is also an Azuma).

 

[HaggisBotherer]

I'm wondering about this when they eventually run to Aberdeen. Will it be two five car units that split at Edinburgh or a full nine car throughout?

If the former, it'll be like going back to the 1970s on the Hastings line ("Passengers for Frant, Wadhurst, Stonegate, Etchingham, Robertsbridge, Battle and West St Leonards, please travel in the front six coaches only")

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm wondering about this when they eventually run to Aberdeen. Will it be two five car units that split at Edinburgh or a full nine car throughout?

If the former, it'll be like going back to the 1970s on the Hastings line ("Passengers for Frant, Wadhurst, Stonegate, Etchingham, Robertsbridge, Battle and West St Leonards, please travel in the front six coaches only")

This happens all the time on LNR, Southern and GWR at least (probably others) - not just a 70s thing!

 

[Master29]

I'm wondering about this when they eventually run to Aberdeen. Will it be two five car units that split at Edinburgh or a full nine car throughout?

If the former, it'll be like going back to the 1970s on the Hastings line ("Passengers for Frant, Wadhurst, Stonegate, Etchingham, Robertsbridge, Battle and West St Leonards, please travel in the front six coaches only")

I was thinking the very same thing concerning the Highland Chieftain to Inverness and if that will potentially split at Edinburgh.

 

[danthekyle]

The seat plan on the LNER site seems to be the old train even though June is selected.

The LNER website does show the Azuma seating plan when you try to reserve seats for some services in June, so that should give you an idea of what's confirmed. I've only ever seen a 9 car presented on the seat selection map so far. It's not quite the same as the published PDF seating plan though (it looks like they have some seats the wrong way around, in error).

 

[Class455]

Based on information posted in other threads, the best bet for catching an Azuma would be booking on either the 1103 Kings Cross - Leeds service or the 1345 Leeds - KGX. These services are currently run using the HST set used for the daily Hull service, which is planned to be the first to be swapped to a 9-car Azuma. I'm booked to use the 0803 KGX - Leeds service on June 17th, which according to the seat map is also planned to be a 9-car Azuma (and would mean the 1045 return working to KGX is also an Azuma).

I'm booked onto the 20:03 KGX to LDS on May 30th and according to the seat map that will be an Azuma.

 

[t52192]

I was under the impression that come 15th May, all HSTs on Leeds to London get replaced to Azumas? Perhaps a slow introduction for the first month, but overall all Azumas

 

[800001]

I was under the impression that come 15th May, all HSTs on Leeds to London get replaced to Azumas? Perhaps a slow introduction for the first month, but overall all Azumas

1 set on 15th May, then another 2 weeks before another set launches, then weekly for next 5 weeks after that.

No services open for reservation are for 5 or 10 sets all for the 9 car sets.

First set replaces hst, next few sets should replace MK4s.

 

[TheBigD]

I'm wondering about this when they eventually run to Aberdeen. Will it be two five car units that split at Edinburgh or a full nine car throughout?

If the former, it'll be like going back to the 1970s on the Hastings line ("Passengers for Frant, Wadhurst, Stonegate, Etchingham, Robertsbridge, Battle and West St Leonards, please travel in the front six coaches only")

I can't see the 5 car bi-modes forming the Aberdeen or Inverness services.

There are only 10 x 5 car bi-modes for 8 diagrams. Once the full timetable is up and running around 2022, they will be mostly used for the Lincolns and Harrogates which will require 6 units. Throw in the 2 hourly Middlesbroughs that should be introduced as well, another 3 bi-modes required, and there are not enough 5 cars to go around, especially as some will need to be doubled up in the peak hours into/out of London.

There's a thread about the new services and the document is linked on the first post...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-ecml-lner-services.177199/

 

[Clansman]

People seem to underestimate just how much Inverness and Aberdeen services are used. Aberdeen services tend to be ram packed by Kirkcaldy, and Inverness services are usually fairly loaded after Perth. Where standard isn't as busy, first class 9 times out of 10 always is.

Five coach Azumas on these services, which, baring in mind, is only 3.5 standard class coaches and the equivilant of 1 first class coach, would definitley not be able to cope, even on quieter days.

The only valid argument for shortening existing services north of Edinburgh would be Stirling, purely on a capacity usage basis. But given it's only a short hop from Edinburgh, what is the benefit in splitting if the set you're leaving behind in Edinburgh would have been originally scheduled to work back to Craigentinny anyway? The same logic applies to both Aberdeen and Inverness services.

If anything it's just more crew to work an empty for the sake of absolutely bugger all.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

People seem to underestimate just how much Inverness and Aberdeen services are used. Aberdeen services tend to be ram packed by Kirkcaldy, and Inverness services are usually fairly loaded after Perth. Where standard isn't as busy, first class 9 times out of 10 always is.

Five coach Azumas on these services, which, baring in mind, is only 3.5 standard class coaches and the equivilant of 1 first class coach, would definitley not be able to cope, even on quieter days.

The only valid argument for shortening existing services north of Edinburgh would be Stirling, purely on a capacity usage basis. But given it's only a short hop from Edinburgh, what is the benefit in splitting if the set you're leaving behind in Edinburgh would have been originally scheduled to work back to Craigentinny anyway? The same logic applies to both Aberdeen and Inverness services.

If anything it's just more crew to work an empty for the sake of absolutely bugger all.

So why have LNER ordered 5 coach Azumas then, unless they intend them to double up on services (in which case surely a 9 coach Azuma would do just as well?)? I can't think of anywhere on their network where replacing a 9 coach HST with a 5 coach Azuma would be perceived as either practical or an improvement!

 

[Class455]

People seem to underestimate just how much Inverness and Aberdeen services are used. Aberdeen services tend to be ram packed by Kirkcaldy, and Inverness services are usually fairly loaded after Perth. Where standard isn't as busy, first class 9 times out of 10 always is.

Five coach Azumas on these services, which, baring in mind, is only 3.5 standard class coaches and the equivilant of 1 first class coach, would definitley not be able to cope, even on quieter days.

The only valid argument for shortening existing services north of Edinburgh would be Stirling, purely on a capacity usage basis. But given it's only a short hop from Edinburgh, what is the benefit in splitting if the set you're leaving behind in Edinburgh would have been originally scheduled to work back to Craigentinny anyway? The same logic applies to both Aberdeen and Inverness services.

If anything it's just more crew to work an empty for the sake of absolutely bugger all.

The morning Stirling diagram goes on to work a Leeds service later in the day which becomes extremely busy and then will work the 17:33 Kings Cross- Harrogate so that won’t be shortened, unless they attach it to another 5 car 800 at Edinburgh

 

[sprinterguy]

So why have LNER ordered 5 coach Azumas then, unless they intend them to double up on services (in which case surely a 9 coach Azuma would do just as well?)? I can't think of anywhere on their network where replacing a 9 coach HST with a 5 coach Azuma would be perceived as either practical or an improvement!

As noted above by TheBigD, 5 car units should be primarily for Lincoln, Harrogate and Middlesbrough services, which currently only see no or a token daily service.

There are nearly enough 9-car bi-mode sets to replace LNER's HSTs on a like-for-like basis (13 versus 15 respectively).

 

[Master29]

So why have LNER ordered 5 coach Azumas then, unless they intend them to double up on services (in which case surely a 9 coach Azuma would do just as well?)? I can't think of anywhere on their network where replacing a 9 coach HST with a 5 coach Azuma would be perceived as either practical or an improvement!

LNER didn`t order them; that was the DfT. I think it`s already been explained earlier in the thread where the 5 car diagrams will be, of which I was not aware hence my earlier post.

 

[Clansman]

So why have LNER ordered 5 coach Azumas then, unless they intend them to double up on services (in which case surely a 9 coach Azuma would do just as well?)? I can't think of anywhere on their network where replacing a 9 coach HST with a 5 coach Azuma would be perceived as either practical or an improvement!

Well I highly doubt the DfT procured 5-coach Azumas for the sake of splitting existing north of Edinburgh services (which is the idea that I originally criticised), that's for sure.

The morning Stirling diagram goes on to work a Leeds service later in the day which becomes extremely busy and then will work the 17:33 Kings Cross- Harrogate so that won’t be shortened, unless they attach it to another 5 car 800 at Edinburgh

Hence why I mentioned it purely on a capacity basis to try and somehow fit in to other users' ideas that splitting services at Edinburgh would somehow be logical. The diagram you mention proves my original point.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

As noted above by TheBigD, 5 car units should be primarily for Lincoln, Harrogate and Middlesbrough services, which currently only see no or a token daily service.

There are nearly enough 9-car bi-mode sets to replace LNER's HSTs on a like-for-like basis (13 versus 15 respectively).

That's fine in theory but if it's anything like what happened when Cross Country started replacing HSTs with 4 or 5 coach Voyagers, all it takes is for a couple of units to be out of service and you might end up fighting for a seat from London to Edinburgh on a dinky little 5 coach Azuma!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's fine in theory but if it's anything like what happened when Cross Country started replacing HSTs with 4 or 5 coach Voyagers, all it takes is for a couple of units to be out of service and you might end up fighting for a seat from London to Edinburgh on a dinky little 5 coach Azuma!

Better, one would argue, than the outright cancellation that would occur if they were a single 9-car set?

 

[sprinterguy]

That's fine in theory but if it's anything like what happened when Cross Country started replacing HSTs with 4 or 5 coach Voyagers, all it takes is for a couple of units to be out of service and you might end up fighting for a seat from London to Edinburgh on a dinky little 5 coach Azuma!

Doesn't seem terribly likely, given that the replacement IET fleet will be a fair bit larger, in terms of both units and individual carriages, than the existing East Coast fleet.

Crosscountry replaced 7 carriage trains with 4 and 5 car ones, LNER are replacing their 9 carriage fleet with a larger fleet of 9 car and pairs (primarily) of 5 car ones. There's little comparison.

 

[Master29]

That's fine in theory but if it's anything like what happened when Cross Country started replacing HSTs with 4 or 5 coach Voyagers, all it takes is for a couple of units to be out of service and you might end up fighting for a seat from London to Edinburgh on a dinky little 5 coach Azuma!

Unlike GWR 2/3rds of the Azuma orders are for 9 car trains so that isn`t likely.

 

[hexagon789]

lastly, it says this for the Quiet Coach on Azumas "Just so you know, a handful of Azuma trains won’t have a quieter coach onboard." Any ideas on what those handful of services could be??

It's not particular services, it's that the 5-car units don't have a Quiet Coach, only the 9-cars do.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

It's not particular services, it's that the 5-car units don't have a Quiet Coach, only the 9-cars do.

Sorry if it's on another post on this thread but the 10-car Azumas will have a Quiet Coach, H, when in 2x5 formations.

In my opinion, Coach B should've stayed as the Quiet Coach - hopefully passengers will quickly learn coach H is the Quiet Coach (H for Hush ) on the Azuma trains.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

LNER told me (took part on Twitter yesterday afternoon in asking whoever it was) that it's not attended to run 5-cars to Aberdeen / Inverness. I didn't think so somehow knowing 9 coaches have been used mostly since like 2002/2003. Plus if a XC service from Plymouth to Dundee or Aberdeen gets terminated at say Edinburgh if on time, you currently have a big 9-coach HST around 25-30 minutes behind - more seats once Azumas take over (9 or 10-cars)!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

LNER told me (took part on Twitter yesterday afternoon in asking whoever it was) that it's not attended to run 5-cars to Aberdeen / Inverness. I didn't think so somehow knowing 9 coaches have been used mostly since like 2002/2003. Plus if a XC service from Plymouth to Dundee or Aberdeen gets terminated at say Edinburgh if on time, you currently have a big 9-coach HST around 25-30 minutes behind - more seats once Azumas take over (9 or 10-cars)!

I took part in the questions on LNER's Twitter page, sorry.

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry if it's on another post on this thread but the 10-car Azumas will have a Quiet Coach, H, when in 2x5 formations.

In my opinion, Coach B should've stayed as the Quiet Coach - hopefully passengers will quickly learn coach H is the Quiet Coach (H for Hush ) on the Azuma trains.

Interesting, the seating plans seemed to suggest a Quiet Coach was only provided in 9-car sets.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Interesting, the seating plans seemed to suggest a Quiet Coach was only provided in 9-car sets.

I thought LNER mentioned this to someone on Twitter. However, you're right and I'm wrong, so apologies for that.

 

[hexagon789]

I thought LNER mentioned this to someone on Twitter. However, you're right and I'm wrong, so apologies for that.

That's alright, I thought maybe LNER had done a u-turn which wouldn't have surprised me.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I wonder if LNER have been keeping an eye on the progress of the GWR Class 80x fleet in terms of the number of 5-car vice 8 (HST), 9 or 10 formations - the LNER Wikipedia page basically states that, as regards the Azuma's, that they'll be 22 5-car sets and 43 9-car sets.

2x5 may give you flexibility but I think LNER want to keep their name if you get me and retain passenger satisfaction by opting for more 9-car sets than 5!

 

[JonathanH]

2x5 may give you flexibility but I think LNER want to keep their name if you get me and retain passenger satisfaction by opting for more 9-car sets than 5!

LNER have had absolutely no say in the fleet that has been procured - it is all down to the DfT and its plans for the East Coast route.

 

[TheBigD]

I wonder if LNER have been keeping an eye on the progress of the GWR Class 80x fleet in terms of the number of 5-car vice 8 (HST), 9 or 10 formations - the LNER Wikipedia page basically states that, as regards the Azuma's, that they'll be 22 5-car sets and 43 9-car sets.

2x5 may give you flexibility but I think LNER want to keep their name if you get me and retain passenger satisfaction by opting for more 9-car sets than 5!

LNER will see a large uplift in capacity and services. A planned increase from 5 trains per hour to 6.5 trains per hour to/from Kings Cross and new services to Lincoln/Harrogate/Middlesbrough/Newcastle, assuming all the infrastructure improvements are completed.

30 x 9 car electric for 26 diagrams, direct replacement for the current 26 Mk4 diagrams, with over 100 extra seats per set.

13 x 9 car bi-mode for 10 diagrams, to replace 10 out of 14 HST diagrams, again over 100 extra seats per set.

12 x 5 car electric sets for 10 diagrams, to be used primarily for the extra services planned (most likely the new Kings Cross - Newcastle stopper)

10 x 5 car bi-mode for 8 diagrams, to be used primarily for the new Harrogate/Lincoln services.

Very few services that are currently 9 cars will be diagrammed for a 5 car. The 5 car units are primarily for the new services.

Excluding the small number of MK4 sets LNER are planning on keeping, there will be an increase of 54 carriages diagrammed each weekday on LNER. And each set will be used more intensively as a result of the reduced journey times.