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How easy or hard is it to use a Hydrogen car in the UK?

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Whilst i know Hydrogen buses have been in use for a long time (such as on the Tower Transit route RV1 in London and a few other places) i only just realised that Hydrogen cars are available too.

From looking online there are plenty of different makes and models of Hydrogen cars available.

My question is how easy is it to use a Hydrogen car in the UK? How do you fill it up? Are there any petrol stations that offer Hydrogen as i have certainly never seen one?

I would be interested to hear if anyone has any experience of driving Hydrogen cars and what they think?
 
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GusB

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Whilst i know Hydrogen buses have been in use for a long time (such as on the Tower Transit route RV1 in London and a few other places) i only just realised that Hydrogen cars are available too. From looking online there are plenty of different makes and models of Hydrogen cars available. My question is how easy is it to use a Hydrogen car in the UK? How do you fill it up? Are there any petrol stations that offer Hydrogen as i have certainly never seen one? I would be interested to hear if anyone has any experience of driving Hydrogen cars and what they think?


A quick search has provided this article:


The full list of hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK​

  1. Shell, Gatwick (RH6 0NX) - Operated by: ITM Power
  2. Shell, M25 Cobham Services, Surrey (KT11 3JS) - Operated by: ITM Power
  3. Power CEME Innovation Centre, Marsh Way, Rainham (RM13 8EU) - Operated by: ITM Power
  4. NPL, Teddington (TW11 0LY) - Operated by: ITM Power
  5. Hatton Cross Station, London (TW6 2GE) - Operated by: Air Products
  6. Shell, M40 Beaconsfield Services, Buckinghamshire (HP9 2SE) - Operated by: ITM Power
  7. Honda Manufacturing, Swindon (SN3 4TZ) - Operated by: BOC
  8. J Matthey, Great Western Way, Swindon (SN5 8AT) - Operated by: ITM Power
  9. AMP, Rotherham, Sheffield (S60 5WG) - Operated by: ITM Power
  10. Aberdeen Hydrogen Centre, Langdykes Road, City of Aberdeen (AB12 3FT) - Operated by: Aberdeen City Council
  11. Hydrogen Refuelling, Powis Terrace, City of Aberdeen (AB25 3RF) - Operated by: BOC


Planned hydrogen refuelling stations:

  1. A50/A38 services, Willington, Derby (DE65 6DX) - Operated by: ITM Power
  2. Cavendish House Prince’s Wharf, Thornaby, Stockton-on-Tees (TS17 6QY) - Operated by: TBC

There aren't many places on that list, but I'd hope that anyone who was planning to buy a hydrogen car would do their research to find out if there's somewhere nearby that they can fill up. I don't have any knowledge about the hydrogen cars on the market, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to charge one like a plug-in hybrid - the main difference being that the internal combustion engine is replaced by the fuel cell.
 
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A quick search has provided this article:




There aren't many places on that list, but I'd hope that anyone who was planning to buy a hydrogen car would do their research to find out if there's somewhere nearby that they can fill up. I don't have any knowledge about the hydrogen cars on the market, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to charge one like a plug-in hybrid - the main difference being that the internal combustion engine is replaced by the fuel cell.
Wow just eleven Hydrogen fuelling stations! I guess having a Hydrogen car is not really practical in the UK unless you happen to live close to one of those eleven places!

Hydrogen is a gas so how would you charge one like a plug in hybrid? I am not quite sure what you mean here?

I wonder if Hydrogen cars will become more popular in the future with more people trying to go environmentally friendly? Or if electric cars will continue to be far more popular and leave Hydrogen mostly redundant?

I suggest searching the Drivetribe channel on YT to find James May's perspective on owning and driving a Toyota Mirai. Very interesting.
Many thanks for the suggestion. I shall go have a watch of that now.
 
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……..From looking online there are plenty of different makes and models of Hydrogen cars available.…….

There are only two models of fuel-cell passenger cars available, with limited availability.
The Hyundai Nexo (£69,000) and Toyota Mirai (£50,000 - £65,000).
 

GusB

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Wow just eleven Hydrogen fuelling stations! I guess having a Hydrogen car is not really practical in the UK unless you happen to live close to one of those eleven places!

Hydrogen is a gas so how would you charge one like a plug in hybrid? I am not quite sure what you mean here?

I wonder if Hydrogen cars will become more popular in the future with more people trying to go environmentally friendly? Or if electric cars will continue to be far more popular and leave Hydrogen mostly redundant?

I should perhaps have done a bit more research before I responded to your question (!), but essentially hydrogen fuel-cell cars are electric cars; the main difference is that they generate their own electricity from the fuel-cell, but they also carry batteries to store energy from braking. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that those batteries could also be re-charged in the same way a conventional battery-electric or plug-in hybrid, although in the case of the Toyota Mirai they're claiming 400 miles range on hydrogen so obviously they don't think it's necessary. As an aside, I really like the look of the Mirai :)

There is some work being done on internal combustion engines that burn hydrogen. Others may be able to supply more information, but the one that I'm aware of is Cummins.

Cummins Inc. (NYSE: CMI) has taken another step forward in advancing zero carbon technology as the company began testing a hydrogen-fueled internal combustion engine. The proof-of-concept test is building on Cummins’ existing technology leadership in gaseous-fuel applications and powertrain leadership to create new power solutions that help customers meet the energy and environmental needs of the future.

“Cummins is thrilled about the potential of the hydrogen engine to reduce emissions and provide power and performance for customers,” said Srikanth Padmanabhan, President of the Engine Segment. “We are using all new engine platforms equipped with the latest technologies to improve power density, reduce friction and improve thermal efficiency, allowing us to avoid the typical performance limitations and efficiency compromises associated with converting diesel or natural gas engines over to hydrogen fuel. We have made significant technological advancements and will continue moving forward. We are optimistic about bringing this solution to market.”

Following the proof-of-concept testing, the company plans to evaluate the engine in a variety of on- and off-highway applications, supporting the company’s efforts to accelerate the decarbonization of commercial vehicles.

“The hydrogen engine program can potentially expand the technology options available to achieve a more sustainable transport sector, complementing our capabilities in hydrogen fuel cell, battery electric and renewable natural gas powertrains,” said Jonathon White, Vice-President of Engine Business Engineering.

Hydrogen engines offer OEMs and end-users the benefit of adaptability by continuing to use familiar mechanical drivelines with vehicle and equipment integration mirroring that of current powertrains while continuing to provide the power and capability for meeting application needs.

The hydrogen engines can use green hydrogen fuel, produced by Cummins-manufactured electrolyzers, emitting near zero CO2 emissions through the tailpipe and near zero levels of NOx. The projected investment in renewable hydrogen production globally will provide a growing opportunity for the deployment of hydrogen-powered fleets utilizing either Cummins fuel cell or engine power.



Integrating Hydrogen Technology​

Cummins is investing across a range of technologies to support hydrogen-based transportation including hydrogen engines, fuel cells, electrolyzers and storage tanks.

The high energy density of hydrogen enables easily integrated on-board gas storage without compromising either the vehicle payload or operating range. Cummins’ joint venture partnership with hydrogen storage specialist NPROXX adds the ability to integrate the fuel cell or hydrogen engine with the high-pressure gas cylinder tanks and supply lines on the vehicle. NPROXX is also a leading supplier of containerized storage vessels, enabling fast hydrogen refueling for end users.

Cummins’ pivotal role in expanding the hydrogen ecosphere goes beyond fuel cells and storage solutions to the manufacture of decarbonized renewable hydrogen, with the experience of more than 600 electrolyzer installations across the globe. The modular scalability of our electrolyzers are ideally suited for a range of applications, from the localized supply of truck and bus fleets to utility-scale electrolysis. Cummins has unique hydrogen capabilities extending from fuel production to storage and vehicle power.
 

xotGD

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People without the facility to plug in a battery electric vehicle at home may be more interested in hydrogen fuel cell cars. Then, you just refuel at a 'gas' station, same as you do with petrol or diesel. Of course, we need a lot more filling stations before this becomes a practical option. Hydrogen is better suited to heavier vehicles and/or those with a big daily mileage. So buses, lorries, maybe taxis. And of course trains.
 

MotCO

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Wow just eleven Hydrogen fuelling stations! I guess having a Hydrogen car is not really practical in the UK unless you happen to live close to one of those eleven places!
And don't intend travelling any further than 200 miles from home!
 

Dent

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I should perhaps have done a bit more research before I responded to your question (!), but essentially hydrogen fuel-cell cars are electric cars; the main difference is that they generate their own electricity from the fuel-cell, but they also carry batteries to store energy from braking. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that those batteries could also be re-charged in the same way a conventional battery-electric or plug-in hybrid, although in the case of the Toyota Mirai they're claiming 400 miles range on hydrogen so obviously they don't think it's necessary. As an aside, I really like the look of the Mirai :)

How big is that battery? If it's only intended to store the energy recovered from stopping once then it won't store enough to cover any real distance on its own.
 

brad465

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And don't intend travelling any further than 200 miles from home!
Unless that 200 miles is in the direction of another Hydrogen filling station, so looking at that list a return trip from London to somewhere near Rotherham/Sheffield (or vice versa) would work if you fill up at one end before travelling back.
 

Bald Rick

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Of course the problem with hydrogen as a fuel is that most of it in this country is made through Steam Methane Reforming. In terms of energy output, a hydrogen car produces about the same amount of CO2 as a petrol car, and ‘fugitive’ (escaping) Methane in the process adds much more in greenhouse gas terms. That will only change with large scale production of ‘green’ hydrogen through the electrolysis of water by renewable electricity. But that’s a way off yet.

Far better to have an electric car and buy renewable electricity...
 

JohnMcL7

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I suggest searching the Drivetribe channel on YT to find James May's perspective on owning and driving a Toyota Mirai. Very interesting.
That's exactly what I was thinking and here's one he did recently when he bought his new Toyota Mirai which I found a good insight into hydrogen vehicles:

 

Flying Snail

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Of course the problem with hydrogen as a fuel is that most of it in this country is made through Steam Methane Reforming. In terms of energy output, a hydrogen car produces about the same amount of CO2 as a petrol car, and ‘fugitive’ (escaping) Methane in the process adds much more in greenhouse gas terms. That will only change with large scale production of ‘green’ hydrogen through the electrolysis of water by renewable electricity. But that’s a way off yet.

Far better to have an electric car and buy renewable electricity...

How exactly do you buy "renewable energy"? As long as the entirety of the nation's demand exceeds the renewable generation ability you are not buying 100% renewable no matter what marketing bunk an individual supplier tells you.

The two advantages with Hydrogen are, as soon as there are enough filling stations it won't have the range anxiety that battery electric always will have due to charge times and it is a more scalable form of electricity generation storage than banks of lithium batteries.

Assuming there is a point where there is an excess of renewable generation supply for all domestic and industrial demands, there is a very strong argument for electrically generated hydrogen powered transport over battery electric not least of which are the real environmental and geopolitical issues caused by the materials used in the vast amount of batteries required.
 

Domh245

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As long as the entirety of the nation's demand exceeds the renewable generation ability you are not buying 100% renewable no matter what marketing bunk an individual supplier tells you.

It's an accounting fudge, but if your supplier claims to sell 100% renewable and has the REGOs to prove it, then to all intents and purposes the electricity you consumed was 100% renewable (though I don't think they account for T&D losses?)

Assuming there is a point where there is an excess of renewable generation supply for all domestic and industrial demands, there is a very strong argument for electrically generated hydrogen powered transport over battery electric not least of which are the real environmental and geopolitical issues caused by the materials used in the vast amount of batteries required.

Ah yes, those batteries that Hydrogen vehicles famously don't use....
Unless you're going for a hydrogen fuelled ICE (I don't think anyone is anymore, at least not seriously and definitely not at passenger car size) then you're still going to need large quantities of batteries with associated unpleasantness. I'm not entirely sure that fuel cells themselves are without 'dubious' materials either
 

Bald Rick

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How exactly do you buy "renewable energy"? As long as the entirety of the nation's demand exceeds the renewable generation ability you are not buying 100% renewable no matter what marketing bunk an individual supplier tells you.

Well that is a matter of some debate, and opinions vary, as I have written before. You can make persuasive arguments that someone buying renewable (or green) energy on a specific tariff is using electricity that is producing:

a) zero carbon
b) carbon of the grid average
c) carbon at the rate of the worst generator type at the margin.

However, none of that detracts from the principle that, right now, producing Hydrogen in this country for transport use Is almost exclusively worse than using a petrol engine.

(The almost allowing for an exception of Aberdeen buses).
 

Bald Rick

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What's special about Aberdeen's hydrogen?

There’s a small fleet of hydrogen buses in Aberdeen with the hydrogen produced by electrolysis with the electricity produced from a dedicated wind farm.
 

Domh245

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There’s a small fleet of hydrogen buses in Aberdeen with the hydrogen produced by electrolysis with the electricity produced from a dedicated wind farm.

Is that related to Orkney's hydrogen experiments by any chance?
 

Bald Rick

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Is that related to Orkney's hydrogen experiments by any chance?

Doing a bit more research - it seems the hydrogen electrolysed is (or at least was) powered by electricity on a green tariff rather than from a dedicated source - apologies. Plenty of wind power up there of course, and lots more to come which won’t all be able to be sent south of the border.
 

wessextrains

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I was looking in to this it seems like there are two types of Hydrogen vehicles available. There is Hydrogen Combustion vehicles and Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles. I am wondering how exactly do these differ. They both run on pure Hydrogen i think? Does anyone know what the difference is and which is better? Are cars of both types currently sold?
 

Ediswan

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I was looking in to this it seems like there are two types of Hydrogen vehicles available. There is Hydrogen Combustion vehicles and Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles. I am wondering how exactly do these differ. They both run on pure Hydrogen i think? Does anyone know what the difference is and which is better? Are cars of both types currently sold?
Hydrogen combustion is an alternative fuel for a suitably adapted internal combsution engine. Hydrogen fuel cell generates electricty to power an electric motor.
 

Domh245

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I was looking in to this it seems like there are two types of Hydrogen vehicles available. There is Hydrogen Combustion vehicles and Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles. I am wondering how exactly do these differ. They both run on pure Hydrogen i think? Does anyone know what the difference is and which is better? Are cars of both types currently sold?

Hydrogen combustion vehicles are like conventional petrol vehicles but combust hydrogen rather than petrol to make pistons move up & down to rotate a crankshaft and ultimately the wheels. Hydrogen fuel cells react hydrogen with oxygen from the air to produce electric charge, which is then used in the same way it would be on a battery electric car.

Fuel Cells seem to be the preferred option, and to the best of my knowledge only ones being produced and sold right now. Fuel cells are much more efficient at the very least, both in turning hydrogen into useful work, and in being able to more readily recuperate energy through regenerative braking
 

wessextrains

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Hydrogen combustion is an alternative fuel for a suitably adapted internal combsution engine. Hydrogen fuel cell generates electricty to power an electric motor.
Hydrogen combustion vehicles are like conventional petrol vehicles but combust hydrogen rather than petrol to make pistons move up & down to rotate a crankshaft and ultimately the wheels. Hydrogen fuel cells react hydrogen with oxygen from the air to produce electric charge, which is then used in the same way it would be on a battery electric car.

Fuel Cells seem to be the preferred option, and to the best of my knowledge only ones being produced and sold right now. Fuel cells are much more efficient at the very least, both in turning hydrogen into useful work, and in being able to more readily recuperate energy through regenerative braking
For reference, hydrogen fuel cells are not new. Powered a tractor in 1959. Powered the Apollo spacecraft.

https://www.thoughtco.com/hydrogen-fuel-cells-1991799
Thank you for the information and explanation. I would quite like to buy a Hydrogen car as my car needs replacing soon but it is the lack of places to fill up that makes it difficult. Hopefully more fuelling stations will start offering Hydrogen soon.
 

MotCO

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Jo Bamford has an explanation of the Hydrogen combustion engine - ideal for large lorries, tractors etc. See this Harry Garage's video.
 

Factotum

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Thank you for the information and explanation. I would quite like to buy a Hydrogen car as my car needs replacing soon but it is the lack of places to fill up that makes it difficult. Hopefully more fuelling stations will start offering Hydrogen soon.
Rather than having hydrogen stations selling hydrogen into a tank built into the ca, like we do with petrol, would it be possible to sell cylinders of hydrogen,which you connect to the fuel cell via a valve.
Rather like the way you buy calor gas for your garage or patio heater. Trading in the empty cylinder for a full one..
 

MotCO

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Rather than having hydrogen stations selling hydrogen into a tank built into the ca, like we do with petrol, would it be possible to sell cylinders of hydrogen,which you connect to the fuel cell via a valve.
Rather like the way you buy calor gas for your garage or patio heater. Trading in the empty cylinder for a full one..

I've always thought that battery EV cars should have a slide-out battery pack which can be exchanged at refilling stations for a fully recharged pack. Obviously it will need standardisation so that all packs are interchangeable, and will require a robot-like forklift truck to slide out the old pack and replace with a new one, but it would be a lot quicker than waiting for at least an hour to recharge your batteries.
 

AM9

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I've always thought that battery EV cars should have a slide-out battery pack which can be exchanged at refilling stations for a fully recharged pack. Obviously it will need standardisation so that all packs are interchangeable, and will require a robot-like forklift truck to slide out the old pack and replace with a new one, but it would be a lot quicker than waiting for at least an hour to recharge your batteries.
It would also require quite a complex mechanical and electrical interface, a lot of safety resources, a degree of QC to continuously monitor the state of batteries in circulation and much higher overall costs. The clamour for swap batteries is mainly coming from those who either don't know how to manage car batteries of just can't be bothered.
 

AndrewE

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How exactly do you buy "renewable energy"? As long as the entirety of the nation's demand exceeds the renewable generation ability you are not buying 100% renewable no matter what marketing bunk an individual supplier tells you.
Of course you cannot buy electrons guaranteed to come from a renewable source, but (if you haven't got your own farm or hill) and you want "your own" electricity from a wind turbine you could buy into this:
You join a coop which owns a turbine and buy your share of its output. In due course (when it is built) you get the credit for "your electrons" against the actual power bit of your bill. Of course you still have top pay the grid charges, and the levy for "green investments," which seems unfair.
A
 
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