How good could the London to Dublin connection be?

[greg321]

The connections off the service you list onto the ferry are fine. Gets you into Dublin for tea time. I don't think people choose the ferry over the plane for speed, and nor will they.

The ferry leaves at 14.10, I wonder if you need all that time to change, I agree people don't go by train for speed, I'm just wondering how fast it could possibly be.

There is another train that takes 3h 50m and gets in at 16.52. Then a swift ferry leaves at 17.15, is that doable?!

Yes. In the days before Ryanair there were Euston-Holyhead boat trains with few stops. But they took more than 4 hours because the WCML was not as fast then and the train had to change locos at Crewe.

That's really interesting, I wonder if anyone knows how fast they could go along that line now?

That's just in line with people wanting to fly, though. If that was to change, e.g. for environmental reasons, it could be made friendlier.

Exactly, and I wonder how much?

Yes. In the days before Ryanair there were Euston-Holyhead boat trains with few stops. But they took more than 4 hours because the WCML was not as fast then and the train had to change locos at Crewe.

Thinking a bit more, Wikipedia says the line from Crew to Holyhead is 105.5 miles long. Will the 805s be able to go at 125mph along the North Wales Coast Line? That would mean Crewe to Holyhead would take 50 mins and so the train in the first post would get in at 11.35, taking 2 hrs 35 in total.

If we assume it could do it a bit quicker non-stop, say 2 hrs?! Then 30 mins to change to the fast (2 hrs 15 m) ferry. That would make it 4hrs 45m to Dublin. Is that possible?

 

[RailWonderer]

I don’t like airports and all the security theatre that goes with them. But the budget airline will have more comfortable seats than the train.

I cannot believe a member of railway staff has the brass neck to talk about strikes when flying by air! Far more risk with the *^%#show that is the British rail system, including weather related disruption.

You think 30in on Ryanair and 29in on BA is more comfortable than the train? I want some of what you're smoking.

And I guess you haven't heard of the cancellations and queues at Heathrow and Gatwick due to the weather and shortages of staff in recent months? The air industry is in a chaos not far off the railways. It's difficult to make sure a rail and air crisis don't collide and every holiday you book is basically like spinning a wheel these days.

 

[43096]

You think 30in on Ryanair and 29in on BA is more comfortable than the train? I want some of what you're smoking.

The seats on Ryanair and BA are way more comfortable than the dross in Voyagers and IETs. And if you're flying you don't have to sit in them for as long, either.

And I guess you haven't heard of the cancellations and queues at Heathrow and Gatwick due to the weather and shortages of staff in recent months? The air industry is in a chaos not far off the railways. It's difficult to make sure a rail and air crisis don't collide and every holiday you book is basically like spinning a wheel these days.

Oh I've heard of the stuff with the airlines, and was 2hrs late back from Dublin about 6 months ago due to some weather related fiasco. But it was still quicker than the train+boat. And, now we have the likes of Flightradar24, I have information that is better than the airlines dare to give you - in the Dublin example I could see when the outbound flight left Heathrow so I knew what was happening, even if BA were saying "on time".

It's difficult to make sure a rail and air crisis don't collide and every holiday you book is basically like spinning a wheel these days.

Fully agree on that!

 

[stuu]

Thinking a bit more, Wikipedia says the line from Crew to Holyhead is 105.5 miles long. Will the 805s be able to go at 125mph along the North Wales Coast Line? That would mean Crewe to Holyhead would take 50 mins and so the train in the first post would get in at 11.35, taking 2 hrs 35 in total.

Maximum is 90, and lots is slower. There's not much scope for speeding it up noticeably either

 

[adamedwards]

Another issue for speeding this up is that the large ferries now used on the Holyhead to Dublin route dock a long way out from the station. Google maps suggests this is 1.3 miles. When I did it you got off the train, went through checkin and then went on a bus to the ship. So you'll need ideally to fund an extra bit of railway to get the 805s to the ferry ramp and save 20 mins of faffing about. Now of course if the train actually went onto the ferry...

 

[43096]

Now of course if the train actually went onto the ferry...

It would be rather pointless as it couldn't do anything when it got to Ireland.

 

[dk1]

It would be rather pointless as it couldn't do anything when it got to Ireland.

Beat me to it lol.

 

[zwk500]

Another issue for speeding this up is that the large ferries now used on the Holyhead to Dublin route dock a long way out from the station. Google maps suggests this is 1.3 miles. When I did it you got off the train, went through checkin and then went on a bus to the ship. So you'll need ideally to fund an extra bit of railway to get the 805s to the ferry ramp and save 20 mins of faffing about. Now of course if the train actually went onto the ferry...

Getting 805s right to the ferry in the manner of Harwich would be somewhat pointless as the space is used for marshalling cars, which are the vast majority of the trade. Having the passenger terminal at the port entrance (i.e. in the Railway Station) and then using a shuttle bus is what many other ports do (e.g. Newhaven and Portsmouth) and is perfectly sensible in todays very safety- conscious world.

 

[Bartsimho]

While this is probably an overdone idea you could improve the journey times from Euston to Holyhead or the frequency post HS2 and advertise the connection more.

Although the idea of trains on boat is romantic it is probably impossible (Even the idea of sleeper cars with dual gauge and a higher price to be both travel and hotel room)

 

[6Gman]

Thinking a bit more, Wikipedia says the line from Crew to Holyhead is 105.5 miles long. Will the 805s be able to go at 125mph along the North Wales Coast Line? That would mean Crewe to Holyhead would take 50 mins and so the train in the first post would get in at 11.35, taking 2 hrs 35 in total.

If we assume it could do it a bit quicker non-stop, say 2 hrs?! Then 30 mins to change to the fast (2 hrs 15 m) ferry. That would make it 4hrs 45m to Dublin. Is that possible?

There's no way you could do Crewe-Holyhead in 50 minutes! (Average speed 126mph)

And why would you run non-stop, given the use made of intermediate stations?

2019-20 (pre-Covid) figures: Bangor 625,000 passengers; Rhyl 504,000, Llandudno Junction 301,000 + 117,000 interchange, Colwyn Bay 271,000.

Holyhead 206,000.

The market for "classic" foot passengers is small, and unlikely to increase significantly by speeding up the service.

 

[greg321]

Maximum is 90, and lots is slower. There's not much scope for speeding it up noticeably either

Ahh, that's a shame, thanks for the info though! So I guess we're back to Crewe to Holyhead taking 1hr 30m at best?! So we're looking at something close to 6hrs at best (and then you're only at Dublin Port, so another half an hour into the centre).

There's no way you could do Crewe-Holyhead in 50 minutes! (Average speed 126mph)

And why would you run non-stop, given the use made of intermediate stations?

2019-20 (pre-Covid) figures: Bangor 625,000 passengers; Rhyl 504,000, Llandudno Junction 301,000 + 117,000 interchange, Colwyn Bay 271,000.

Holyhead 206,000.

The market for "classic" foot passengers is small, and unlikely to increase significantly by speeding up the service.

I'd suggest that the demand for this route will grow over the coming years as people try to reduce their carbon footprint, plus flying being such a horrible experience these days.

A flight from London to Dublin takes about 1hr 20m, assuming you check in 2 hours early and it takes half an hour from the plane landing to getting out of the airport, plus an hour getting to and from the airports to the city centres at each end that's also around 6 hours. So if the train and ferry companies made the route as good as it could be (ignoring upgrades), then it would be pretty comparable on time. And I'm sure the people of Rhyl wouldn't mind maybe one train from Euston 44,777,000 flying past a day.

 

[zwk500]

I'd suggest that the demand for this route will grow over the coming years as people try to reduce their carbon footprint, plus flying being such a horrible experience these days.

This is rather optimistic. There's still healthy flights between London and Paris and London and Amsterdam, despite the train journey time being 2.5 or 4hrs respectively. Only Brussels, which is a smaller market and is only 2h away, has seen substantial replacement of flights by the train. France has had to introduce restrictions on internal travel to force people to use the TGV.

A flight from London to Dublin takes about 1hr 20m, assuming you check in 2 hours early and it takes half an hour from the plane landing to getting out of the airport, plus an hour getting to and from the airports to the city centres at each end that's also around 6 hours. So if the train and ferry companies made the route as good as it could be (ignoring upgrades), then it would be pretty comparable on time.

Your air timings are very pessimistic. The biggest variable will be getting from house to the airport, but the catchment for 1h Luton and Stansted is pretty considerable. Last time I flew to Dublin I got up normal time in MK, got the bus to Luton, was on a mid-morning flight and was still at my AirBnB in Dublin in time for some mid-afternoon drinks at the Temple Bar and well before thinking about dinner time. Similarly on the way back we had a very easy morning, might have got a quick lunch in the city and then was back in MK in time for a late supper.

And I'm sure the people of Rhyl wouldn't mind maybe one train from Euston flying past a day.

Depends which train it is. If the train to connect with the ferry is at peak travelling time to/from London they'll be very miffed to see a nearly empty Avanti go flying by to save 4 minutes off sail-rail journeys.

 

[Bartsimho]

This is rather optimistic. There's still healthy flights between London and Paris and London and Amsterdam, despite the train journey time being 2.5 or 4hrs respectively. Only Brussels, which is a smaller market and is only 2h away, has seen substantial replacement of flights by the train. France has had to introduce restrictions on internal travel to force people to use the TGV.

I'd suggest that as the price of Eurostar is so much more than flying that it has a smaller market share than it could do.
Also the type of traveller is probably a factor, to Paris it's probably a very large amount of tourists who primarily look at price while to Brussels I would say a larger contingent is Business which can expense the train and use it in marketing to show they're a Green Company

 

[zwk500]

I'd suggest that as the price of Eurostar is so much more than flying that it has a smaller market share than it could do.

Passenger capacity is restricted, rather than price. Eurostar regularly sells out all it's trains, so the market for Eurostar's price range is certainly there. It also depends what timescales you compare booking at but in general Eurostar is not massively off the going rate for flights especially once you add transfers in.

Also the type of traveller is probably a factor, to Paris it's probably a very large amount of tourists who primarily look at price while to Brussels I would say a larger contingent is Business which can expense the train and use it in marketing to show they're a Green Company

No it's simply the larger market between London and Paris, which are cities that function on a completely different level. London to Paris has far more business connections than London to Brussels, and Brussels travel was usually related to one or other governments based in Brussels, not business travel per se. The smaller market and sub-2h journey, and Brussels Airport's lesser status than CDG made it prime capture territory. However Paris, Amsterdam and Dublin have much larger flows to/from London and their airports (Dublin less so) are bigger hubs than brussels, so flying will continue to be an important part of the transport link.

 

[Chester1]

Ahh, that's a shame, thanks for the info though! So I guess we're back to Crewe to Holyhead taking 1hr 30m at best?! So we're looking at something close to 6hrs at best (and then you're only at Dublin Port, so another half an hour into the centre).

There are sections that are significantly below 90mph. Crewe to Abergele could probably have significant amounts of 100-110mph running but the rest is stuck to 60-90mph due to the alignment, which is dictated by difficult geography. Probably the best possible journey time would be London to Holyhead in under 3 hours using HS2. That would require electrification and some speed improvements. HS2 phase 2a (if its buillt) would cut London to Crewe to 55 minutes. Assuming 5 minutes stop and recovery time, at 15-20 minutes would need to be cut off the current journey time. Electrification and some linespeed improvements would probably be able to do this. Without a tunnel between Holyhead and Dublin rail will not be competitive for journeys between England and Ireland, only for journeys between Wales and Ireland.

 

[Bald Rick]

Your air timings are very pessimistic. The biggest variable will be getting from house to the airport, but the catchment for 1h Luton and Stansted is pretty considerable. Last time I flew to Dublin I got up normal time in MK, got the bus to Luton, was on a mid-morning flight and was still at my AirBnB in Dublin in time for some mid-afternoon drinks at the Temple Bar and well before thinking about dinner time. Similarly on the way back we had a very easy morning, might have got a quick lunch in the city and then was back in MK in time for a late supper.

quite. I can leave home (Hertfordshire) tomorrow at 0645 and be in central Dublin by 1030, for a flight price of £101 (If I swallowed my pride and flew Ryanair). Or I could leave home at 0800 and be in central Dublin for 1300 flying with BA or Aer Lingus for around £140.

Using the train / ferry, I would need to leave home at 0800, and I’d be in central Dublin about 1800. Yes it would be cheaper, but I’d happily pay a lot more for an hour or so on an A320 than 3 hours on the Irish Sea (on the back of nearly 4 hours on the train).

 

[6Gman]

And I'm sure the people of Rhyl wouldn't mind maybe one train from Euston 44,777,000 flying past a day.

It's not about the people of Rhyl minding or otherwise. It's about whether it makes any sense to dedicate a train (and a path on the West Coast Main Line) for a few people who want a slightly faster journey between London and Dublin.

 

[Chester1]

quite. I can leave home (Hertfordshire) tomorrow at 0645 and be in central Dublin by 1030, for a flight price of £101 (If I swallowed my pride and flew Ryanair). Or I could leave home at 0800 and be in central Dublin for 1300 flying with BA or Aer Lingus for around £140.

Using the train / ferry, I would need to leave home at 0800, and I’d be in central Dublin about 1800. Yes it would be cheaper, but I’d happily pay a lot more for an hour or so on an A320 than 3 hours on the Irish Sea (on the back of nearly 4 hours on the train).

What about the climate catastrophe?*

*sarcasm

 

[irish_rail]

What about the climate catastrophe?*

*sarcasm

Well your sarcasm is misplaced, as all but the most dead headed right wing conspiracy theorists admit there is a climate issue. And taking the train and boat is more environmentally friendly. Many make the boat a part of the trip, sip a drink in the bar, go to the cinema, or just chill out and watch the world go by. Yes its a few hours slower, but it can be time well spent, and avoid the misery of flying.

 

[Bald Rick]

Many make the boat a part of the trip, sip a drink in the bar, go to the cinema, or just chill out and watch the world go by. Yes it’s a few hours slower, but it can be time well spent, and avoid the misery of flying.

Opinions differ of course. I find travelling by ship an absolute misery; I can’t relax and the concept of eating or drinking on board - no chance. I much prefer flying.

 

[Chester1]

Well your sarcasm is misplaced, as all but the most dead headed right wing conspiracy theorists admit there is a climate issue. And taking the train and boat is more environmentally friendly. Many make the boat a part of the trip, sip a drink in the bar, go to the cinema, or just chill out and watch the world go by. Yes its a few hours slower, but it can be time well spent, and avoid the misery of flying.

I know climate change is real but I also know very few people make it the main factor in their decision making. For some using less carbon is a substitute religion. Very, very few people traveling from England to Ireland take the ferry, the vast, vast majority fly. I have taken ferries for environmental reasons but only when they are fairly convenient. I wouldnt spend a day traveling, instead of an evening for instance. It would be impossible for me to get ferry and extra time approved for work related travel for environmental reasons. Government policy should be grounded in reality, not the way we want people to act. Any upgrades to North Wales main line will need to be justified by journeys within UK.

 

[6Gman]

I know climate change is real but I also know very few people make it the main factor in their decision making. For some using less carbon is a substitute religion. Very, very few people traveling from England to Ireland take the ferry, the vast, vast majority fly. I have taken ferries for environmental reasons but only when they are fairly convenient. I wouldnt spend a day traveling, instead of an evening for instance. It would be impossible for me to get ferry and extra time approved for work related travel for environmental reasons. Government policy should be grounded in reality, not the way we want people to act. Any upgrades to North Wales main line will need to be justified by journeys within UK.

Indeed.

I am old enough to remember when the evening boat from Ireland would arrive at Holyhead and several hundred people would head for the 01.00 to Euston. Those days are gone and very unlikely to return.

If there was some future international agreement to curtail the use of flying as an option then a beefed up service would be needed but that would not necessarily be significantly faster than the existing provision for the reasons already set out in this thread.

 

[Chester1]

Indeed.

I am old enough to remember when the evening boat from Ireland would arrive at Holyhead and several hundred people would head for the 01.00 to Euston. Those days are gone and very unlikely to return.

If there was some future international agreement to curtail the use of flying as an option then a beefed up service would be needed but that would not necessarily be significantly faster than the existing provision for the reasons already set out in this thread.

The Irish government is never going to curtail international flights. Ireland is an island off an island. International flights are crucial to it being a successful economy and especially to its involvement in the European single market. GB will remain an important market for Irish services due to same language, similar culture and similar legal systems.

 

[zwk500]

And taking the train and boat is more environmentally friendly.

This is debatable, and depends heavily on how you apportion impacts for both modes.

Many make the boat a part of the trip, sip a drink in the bar, go to the cinema, or just chill out and watch the world go by. Yes its a few hours slower, but it can be time well spent, and avoid the misery of flying.

Fine if you've got the time to do that. But if you can't take an extra 2 days off work and want to maximise your time in vibrant and interesting Dublin rather than a generic ship bar then the flying wins hands down. I quite like the ferry to france as a nice couple of hours' break, but 8 hours would just be a pain.

 

[Chester1]

Fine if you've got the time to do that. But if you can't take an extra 2 days off work and want to maximise your time in vibrant and interesting Dublin rather than a generic ship bar then the flying wins hands down. I quite like the ferry to france as a nice couple of hours' break, but 8 hours would just be a pain.

I have taken the overnight ferry between Liverpool and Belfast and between Hull and Ostend and Rotterdam. I can sleep well on a ferry but some people cannot. Most people will fly if the alternatives are less convenient.

As I have said in another thread, the environmentally friendly future of Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham - Dublin journeys is battery planes. They are amongst the few routes that the technology will be viable for. A220 sized electric plane with 200-250 mile range is viable in the next 10-20 years.

 

[Bartsimho]

As a thing maybe there could be a focus on Manchester/Liverpool to Ireland then. I know London is the source of all money in the rail industry but until there is investment to change that it is a self perpetuation.

Manchester-Dublin has 10 flights per day with 11 in reverse.
Liverpool-Dublin has 6 flights per day with the same in reverse.

Those times are around an hour and 15 minutes plus transfer time although the ferry alone takes 3hrs 15 mins so it's still uncompetitive (also Liverpool has direct ferries).

But running a Manchester to Holyhead service timed to connect with the ferries could drive passenger numbers and not take up a whole WCML path.
I'd say a pattern of Manchester Victoria, Salford Central, Newton-le-Willows, Warrington Bank Quay, Chester, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead might get a decent number of journeys on it

 

[Trainbike46]

This is debatable, and depends heavily on how you apportion impacts for both modes.

The debate on this has been settled, and the impact of the ferry is much lower than from an airplane. Only studies that treated a foot passenger and a HGV with a driver as the same ever concluded that ferries and flights had similar emissions

Fine if you've got the time to do that. But if you can't take an extra 2 days off work and want to maximise your time in vibrant and interesting Dublin rather than a generic ship bar then the flying wins hands down. I quite like the ferry to france as a nice couple of hours' break, but 8 hours would just be a pain.

Overnight ferries are quite time efficient actually. Leave Belfast at 22:30 in the evening, arrrive in Liverpool at 6:30, take a train around 7:40-8:00 from lime street, arrive in london at 10, and many other locations even earlier. An 8 hour ferry during the day would be a pain though

 

[dk1]

I actually quite enjoyed the brief renaissance during the ash cloud in 2010. Virgin Trains overnight increased services & formations on the Holyhead route as foot passenger numbers surged. I at the same time was travelling to Marseille via Eurostar where trains were fully booked throughout with Eurostar having no availability for new bookings for the next 5 days on my return.

 

[zwk500]

I have taken the overnight ferry between Liverpool and Belfast and between Hull and Ostend and Rotterdam. I can sleep well on a ferry but some people cannot. Most people will fly if the alternatives are less convenient.

I've only done an overnight ferry once, and my dad decided I could make do with a seat rather than a cabin, so I didn't sleep a wink. However I fully accept that's not a representative experience.

As a thing maybe there could be a focus on Manchester/Liverpool to Ireland then. I know London is the source of all money in the rail industry but until there is investment to change that it is a self perpetuation.

You'll never change it because London is 10 times the size of Manchester and is a global Alpha city.

Manchester-Dublin has 10 flights per day with 11 in reverse.
Liverpool-Dublin has 6 flights per day with the same in reverse.

Those times are around an hour and 15 minutes plus transfer time although the ferry alone takes 3hrs 15 mins so it's still uncompetitive (also Liverpool has direct ferries).

But running a Manchester to Holyhead service timed to connect with the ferries could drive passenger numbers and not take up a whole WCML path.
I'd say a pattern of Manchester Victoria, Salford Central, Newton-le-Willows, Warrington Bank Quay, Chester, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead might get a decent number of journeys on it

However there's some good base to the idea of improving connections between North Wales and the North West, and if you can line it up with the ferries even better.

Overnight ferries are quite time efficient actually. Leave Belfast at 22:30 in the evening, arrrive in Liverpool at 6:30, take a train around 7:40-8:00 from lime street, arrive in london at 10, and many other locations even earlier. An 8 hour ferry during the day would be a pain though

Fine if it works, but that's Liverpool not Holyhead. I did a 12 hour ferry from Portsmouth to St Malo and the 8am arrival in France was quite nice, but an 8pm arrival in UK would have been very poor (we came back via Newhaven).

 

[Chester1]

Overnight ferries are quite time efficient actually. Leave Belfast at 22:30 in the evening, arrrive in Liverpool at 6:30, take a train around 7:40-8:00 from lime street, arrive in london at 10, and many other locations even earlier. An 8 hour ferry during the day would be a pain though

My friends and colleagues find my occasional use of overnight ferries a bit strange and wouldn't consider it an option. Liverpool - Belfast Stena line overnight service is both time efficient and cheap. £60 for a cabin is a bargain compared with the cost of a hotel. It only works environmentally because foot passengers are a microscopic addition to the carbon footprint of a car ferry. If that became a nightly journey by something similar to a cruise ship it wouldn’t be an environmentally friendly replacement to air travel. Expecting people to spend a day traveling isn't a realistic alternative either. People are accustomed to be able to get to places like Dublin after work. A night ferry essentially replaces this + first night in hotel and breakfast getting you to same position at 9-10am.