How have the minor stations between Morpeth and Berwick avoided closure?

[Bletchleyite]

One of the main strengths of the ECML, compared with the WCML North of Crewe, is the level of traffic from Edinburgh (and beyond ) to the intermediate stations such as York, Doncaster and Peterborough. Nearly 60 years ago I used to catch the 08.00 from KX (you were almost certain to get a Deltic on an early service! ). It was almost empty on departure but we'll loaded before Edinburgh.

That kind of makes sense given that there's nowhere of that substantial size between Carlisle and Lancaster, whereas Newcastle, York, Doncaster etc are all fairly big. Yes, there's the Lakes, but there are also bigger and better and less touristy mountains in Scotland.

There's a reasonable demand from Scotland <-> Preston (and onward to Blackpool).

Lancaster would mostly be students, but Scots mostly go to Scottish universities as it's free. It's a nice enough place, but being in some ways a mini Edinburgh (hilly, stone buildings and a castle) I doubt it has much of a tourist market from further north - they'd just go to actual Edinburgh.

 

[mangyiscute]

I dunno if the second London to Glasgow train per hour has been tested before, but I do think that with enough promotion and perhaps slightly cheaper fares this would definitely be viable. Or perhaps a cheaper London to Edinburgh via the WCML - I dunno how the journey times would compare to the ECML, but I imagine most tourists would happily do an extra hour+ if it was like 25% cheaper

 

[RailWonderer]

Liverpool is a bit unique among the Avanti destinations in that it has almost no hinterland that would connect into the service at Lime St. It basically only serves Liverpool and its immediate commuter hinterland - the shape of the coastline sort of leaves it on its own. Totally unlike Edinburgh which offers connections to all of Scotland.

And Manchester with its 3tph for its connections with the Hope Valley, Calder Valley, Bolton etc.

I dunno if the second London to Glasgow train per hour has been tested before, but I do think that with enough promotion and perhaps slightly cheaper fares this would definitely be viable. Or perhaps a cheaper London to Edinburgh via the WCML - I dunno how the journey times would compare to the ECML, but I imagine most tourists would happily do an extra hour+ if it was like 25% cheaper

Glasgow doesn't have anywhere near the tourist demand of Edinburgh. That said there are students, business travellers and some tourists for onward destinations which leave the hourly service solidly packed. Despite that I wouldn't say a 2nd tph is in order, and especially not with Avanti's recent woes - they are in no position to provide it.

 

[Killingworth]

I dunno if the second London to Glasgow train per hour has been tested before, but I do think that with enough promotion and perhaps slightly cheaper fares this would definitely be viable. Or perhaps a cheaper London to Edinburgh via the WCML - I dunno how the journey times would compare to the ECML, but I imagine most tourists would happily do an extra hour+ if it was like 25% cheaper

Quick check for tomorrow, an £88 fare from Kings Cross with Lumo, change Waverley, 5 hours 30 minutes is available.

£112.60 with Avanti from 4 hours 30 minutes. A more frequent service at that price

Slipping away a bit from Acklington and Chathill stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I dunno if the second London to Glasgow train per hour has been tested before, but I do think that with enough promotion and perhaps slightly cheaper fares this would definitely be viable.

There is a second London to Scotland WCML train per hour, it runs via Birmingham so is slower but has cheaper Advances to compensate. This was a Virgin idea joining Euston-Brum and Brum-Scotland services together, and it works very well.

Or perhaps a cheaper London to Edinburgh via the WCML - I dunno how the journey times would compare to the ECML, but I imagine most tourists would happily do an extra hour+ if it was like 25% cheaper

There is and they do.

 

[tbtc]

Trains to Glasgow are competing against the M6/ M74 which makes rail less competitive than on the east coast where the A1 is single carriageway for a good chunk of Morpeth to Dunbar (or just dual carriageway on some other sections, roundabouts too, the hassle of congestion at the Metro Centre etc, drivers with poor eyesight heading to Barnard Castle…)

Liverpool has had a half hourly London service with the peak flow for a long time now - but those trains are pretty much just for Lime Street and Runcorn - whereas Manchester trains don’t just stop at Stockport en route, there’s often a decent load at Macclesfield and Stoke which must make a difference to viability

Whilst the WCML was built so that a Glasgow to London train doesn’t pass through anywhere particularly large (so passengers for Manchester/ Birmingham/ Liverpool etc are on separate trains), the fact that the ECML serves central Newcastle / York/ Doncaster etc must make a big difference to overall demand, so comparisons between the two main lines are fairly pointless

 

[Julia]

I genuinely think a well-priced and accelerated 15 min frequency London-Edinburgh service has potential in the future.

Might be fun finding paths through Welwyn though...

 

[dan4291]

What ever happened to a proposed TPE service between Newcastle and Edinburgh that included a stop at Widdrington? Can't remember the other stops but Widdrington was definitely one of them.

 

[geordieblue]

What ever happened to a proposed TPE service between Newcastle and Edinburgh that included a stop at Widdrington? Can't remember the other stops but Widdrington was definitely one of them.

I think the service is running but without the Widdrington calls.

 

[hexagon789]

Might be fun finding paths through Welwyn though...

I did say the future...

But yes, you'd need some infrastructure upgrades to support it.

 

[Falcon1200]

Does there actually need to be more than 2tph between Newcastle and Edinburgh? Do TPE need to go north of Newcastle at all - why can't through passengers change at Newcastle?

Yes, because none of the trains is simply an Edinburgh/Newcastle service, each operator is serving a different market, and people do not like changing; As Lumo has shown, providing additional services generates more traffic. And the TOCs would not run the trains if there was no demand for them!

 

[Killingworth]

What ever happened to a proposed TPE service between Newcastle and Edinburgh that included a stop at Widdrington? Can't remember the other stops but Widdrington was definitely one of them.

I certainly saw that and went to look at Widdtington and Pegswood, the other one I think was mentioned, at tbe time. I sense this was one way of adding a few minutes into an over generous timetable - until the penny dropped that neither station had parking and there's an excellent hourly bus service runs through both villages into Morpeth, Newcastle and Alnmouth. Both stations are a bit bleak.

 

[Swanley 59]

I think the service is running but without the Widdrington calls.

I certainly saw that and went to look at Widdtington and Pegswood, the other one I think was mentioned, at tbe time. I sense this was one way of adding a few minutes into an over generous timetable - until the penny dropped that neither station had parking and there's an excellent hourly bus service runs through both villages into Morpeth, Newcastle and Alnmouth. Both stations are a bit bleak.

TPE Planned Service

I stand to be corrected, but I believe only the Cramlington call on the first southbound service has come to fruition (when it runs).

 

[Some guy]

And Manchester with its 3tph for its connections with the Hope Valley, Calder Valley, Bolton etc.

Glasgow doesn't have anywhere near the tourist demand of Edinburgh. That said there are students, business travellers and some tourists for onward destinations which leave the hourly service solidly packed. Despite that I wouldn't say a 2nd tph is in order, and especially not with Avanti's recent woes - they are in no position to provide it.

They’re running a 2nd Glasgow right now and it’s been running fine this week. Albeit due to the overtime ban ending. Glasgow is the 3rd largest city and central is the busiest station in Scotland it gets loads of demand all year around

 

[Killingworth]

TPE Planned Service

I stand to be corrected, but I believe only the Cramlington call on the first southbound service has come to fruition (when it runs).

December 2021 TPE Stakeholder Newsletter says;

Edinburgh – Newcastle:
• With the agreement of Transport Scotland and the Rail North Partnership, we will
increase services from the current two per day to five services per day (four on Sundays)
• This service will focus on intermediate local connectivity for Northumberland,
Scottish Borders, and the Lothians
• Trains will call at Cramlington, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Reston† and Dunbar
(†Reston will be converted to a public call once a confirmed opening date is announced)
• Due to network capacity constraints, calls are no longer able to be made at
Widdrington by this service

The first TPE southbound is the one and only scheduled to stop at Cramlington, and it did today; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C84894/2023-01-12/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[43074]

Might be fun finding paths through Welwyn though...

You'd probably be surprised actually, Thameslink is already on a 15 min interval so logically it 'fits'. Would get more interesting figuring out how to serve the likes of Grantham, Newark, Northallerton etc which are busy stations in their own right on the 2 track sections elsewhere.

 

[Swanley 59]

December 2021 TPE Stakeholder Newsletter says;



The first TPE southbound is the one and only scheduled to stop at Cramlington, and it did today; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C84894/2023-01-12/detailed#allox_id=0

I commute from Morpeth to Sunderland three times a week. I most often use the 7:13 LNER service, but I have caught the first TPE service at 7:04 from time to time. To be fair, it seems to be running more reliably of late.

It's a shame that more TPE services don't serve Cramlington, which I'm sure would generate a lot more passenger traffic if only there were the track capacity. Morpeth is very well served by comparison.

 

[mangyiscute]

You'd probably be surprised actually, Thameslink is already on a 15 min interval so logically it 'fits'. Would get more interesting figuring out how to serve the likes of Grantham, Newark, Northallerton etc which are busy stations in their own right on the 2 track sections elsewhere.

If only we were building a new high speed track to provide a lot more space on lines heading north leaving London

 

[RailWonderer]

They’re running a 2nd Glasgow right now and it’s been running fine this week. Albeit due to the overtime ban ending. Glasgow is the 3rd largest city and central is the busiest station in Scotland it gets loads of demand all year around

I wasn't including the Birmingham extenions only the directs via the Trent Valley though it's good to see some connections return.

 

[RestonRailUser]

Folks. For Chathill and the intermediate small stations on the ECML, it would actually make sense for the TPE train to call there. At the moment, if you catch the daily service from Chathill, you can only go south to Newcastle. This is bonkers considering that you are 3/4 of the way to Berwick and the DMU already heads up further to Belford sidings to turn around, so not a great service.

If TPE really want to make good use of their trains then replacing the daily Northern service with the TPE EDB to NCL service opens up additional journey opportunities.

The TPE service between EDB and NCL was always there to be a East Lothian/Borders - Northumberland link and it was always designated as a local service (even though it uses 125mph capable rolling stock).

It requires NWR to make better use of the existing loops between Edinburgh and Newcastle and for TPE not to complete with XC and LNER (which is kinda what they are doing right now).

 

[43074]

If only we were building a new high speed track to provide a lot more space on lines heading north leaving London

Fine - but HS2 and the northern part of the WCML only has capacity for 2tph to Scotland because of freight and HS2 will be pretty much full from the start. And they have to split at Carlisle, so whilst sure there's a journey time improvement it's not as much of a frequency improvement.

 

[AL1]

With the power upgrades taking place on the northern stretch of the ECML, is it not time to consider running the local service with EMUs designed for such a service?

In part the TPE service does that with what was designed as a longer distance inter-city EMU. Now I fully understand the reasons for that . But is this really a good use of an expensive train?

So why not look at how an EMU based operation for the north east might work. Perhaps a small fleet of 350 ex LM might be a better answer. I appreciate that the DMUs used won’t save much in the way of units , but you have to start somewhere!

 

[Swanley 59]

With the power upgrades taking place on the northern stretch of the ECML, is it not time to consider running the local service with EMUs designed for such a service?

In part the TPE service does that with what was designed as a longer distance inter-city EMU. Now I fully understand the reasons for that . But is this really a good use of an expensive train?

So why not look at how an EMU based operation for the north east might work. Perhaps a small fleet of 350 ex LM might be a better answer. I appreciate that the DMUs used won’t save much in the way of units , but you have to start somewhere!

Pathing 75 mph DMUs through the most congested part of the ECML in Northumberland (Morpeth - Newcastle) has never made much sense to me, particularly when the line is electrified and has stretches cleared for 110 mph.

 

[D6130]

Just an observation, but my wife's friend who lives in Alnmouth and commutes to Newcastle every weekday says that the 'Chathill Flyer' seems to have gained more passengers - including from Chathill - since the class 142 units were replaced by the more spacious and comfortable 156s. I wonder how much it would cost to reinstate the Down Loop/Alnwick platform at Alnmouth as a bay in which to terminate the commuter service? Unless there were to be a margin for the Southbound services to run wrong line for a mile from Alnmouth to Wooden Gate crossovers, a new trailing crossover would be required at the South end of Alnmouth station. In such a scenario, Chathill would have to be served by one TPE service par day in each direction.

 

[Swanley 59]

Just an observation, but my wife's friend who lives in Alnmouth and commutes to Newcastle every weekday says that the 'Chathill Flyer' seems to have gained more passengers - including from Chathill - since the class 142 units were replaced by the more spacious and comfortable 156s. I wonder how much it would cost to reinstate the Down Loop/Alnwick platform at Alnmouth as a bay in which to terminate the commuter service? Unless there were to be a margin for the Southbound services to run wrong line for a mile from Alnmouth to Wooden Gate crossovers, a new trailing crossover would be required at the South end of Alnmouth station. In such a scenario, Chathill would have to be served by one TPE service par day in each direction.

Before the wave of strikes and Northern's determination to drive away passengers with their cancellations policy, the northbound 'Chathill Flyer' was often full and standing to Morpeth. It also sees 158s from time to time.

 

[geordieblue]

Just an observation, but my wife's friend who lives in Alnmouth and commutes to Newcastle every weekday says that the 'Chathill Flyer' seems to have gained more passengers - including from Chathill - since the class 142 units were replaced by the more spacious and comfortable 156s. I wonder how much it would cost to reinstate the Down Loop/Alnwick platform at Alnmouth as a bay in which to terminate the commuter service? Unless there were to be a margin for the Southbound services to run wrong line for a mile from Alnmouth to Wooden Gate crossovers, a new trailing crossover would be required at the South end of Alnmouth station. In such a scenario, Chathill would have to be served by one TPE service par day in each direction.

IIRC the heritage Aln Valley Railway have an understanding with NR that the old Alnwick bay would be used for their line to run into when it's fully reopened. Doubt it's a legal agreement though

 

[Class142sbad]

I wonder if that hourly stopper will actually happen. Senrug is still saying they want it. My guess that if it were to happen it will probally be after the Ashington Line opens.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder if that hourly stopper will actually happen. Senrug is still saying they want it. My guess that if it were to happen it will probally be after the Ashington Line opens.

They’re dreaming. I understand from NR strategy publications over quite a few years an hourly stopper like SENRUG propose just cannot be pathed amongst the intercity services.

 

[Starmill]

They’re dreaming. I understand from NR strategy publications over quite a few years an hourly stopper like SENRUG propose just cannot be pathed amongst the intercity services.

Indeed. That was the whole essence of the TransPennine Express services making more calls at Cramlington and Widdrington. Of course in general this hasn't happened despite there being time to do so, become they didn't actually have rights to serve them. That's why a Northern code was placed on a service worked by TPE briefly.

 

[nw1]

Indeed. That was the whole essence of the TransPennine Express services making more calls at Cramlington and Widdrington. Of course in general this hasn't happened despite there being time to do so, become they didn't actually have rights to serve them. That's why a Northern code was placed on a service worked by TPE briefly.

"Didn't have rights to serve them?"

The joys of the privatised railway...

In BR days there were, by contrast, some really resourceful services, which have come up on here before. In (I think) 1983 there was an afternoon Manchester-Bristol XC, for example, which then formed a Bristol to Weston-super-Mare stopper for the evening peak - the rationale being, presumably, that no DMUs were available to work the service, but there was an XC set available which would otherwise be sat in the sidings doing nothing.