How many construction locos would HS2 phase 1 need?

[Topgun333]

30 diesels or more possibly?

Dust down the stored 60s?

 

[The Planner]

Depends on where they are moving muck to and from, it will be all 66s I suspect depending on who gets the contracts. Doubt it will be as high as 30.

 

[455driver]

None, after going out to competitive tender it will all arrive by road!

 

[D365]

None, after going out to competitive tender it will all arrive by road!

Bolt some road tyres on a few 60s or 58s, problem solved

 

[NotATrainspott]

None, after going out to competitive tender it will all arrive by road!

I know you're joking but it's actually the case that Parliamentary approval of the scheme includes restrictions on how it will be built. That means that if a train could feasibly be used rather than lorries, it will be done. Lorries used to build it must then be Euro VI-compliant and the Hybrid Bill even includes building a new junction on the M25 to serve the southern Chiltern Tunnel construction site directly.

 

[route:oxford]

None, after going out to competitive tender it will all arrive by road!

Almost...

After being refused planning permission for rail movements through Oxford, it will all arrive by road.

 

[The Planner]

Not sure why everyone is going for the arriving bit, they will be shifting millions of m³ from the tunnel sites to various holes somewhere. The stuff going in like OLE, ballast, concrete, will be small fry in comparison. As for the Oxford comment, no reason why it won't go through there, the restriction is on tph I thought? there is no way they will all be filled up from the start in 2019 when E-W opens.

 

[edwin_m]

Rail can't be used during the building of the earthworks and structures because these will be done before the track is laid. Probably the earlier stages of work will be to create a haul road along the alignment, then move earth by off-road truck from the site of cuttings to the site of embankments. It may be possible to remove any net surplus or supply any net deficit via a railhead on or near the alignment. Once the formation is in place most of the track, OLE etc can come in by rail.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What existing classes of loco that are currently in storage or soon to go into storage would be best suited for use with the HS2 construction?

Given the larger loading gauge of HS2, is it possible that a new build of locos will be built just for the construction of HS2?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What existing classes of loco that are currently in storage or soon to go into storage would be best suited for use with the HS2 construction?

Given the larger loading gauge of HS2, is it possible that a new build of locos will be built just for the construction of HS2?

(i) With the recent fall in coal traffic, there's probably enough 66s spare...

(ii) Highly unlikely. Firstly, I doubt it'd be viable financially to order new locos for probably less than a decade of work, especially as continental gauge locos then wouldn't be able to be deployed on other work. High speed lines being built in France and Spain used British 37s and 58s, so there's clearly no advantage to buildings larger locos. Also while HS2 has a more generous loading gauge, by their very nature the construction trains need to also use the classic network in order to reach the worksite.

 

[edwin_m]

It's possible Continental gauge locos could be used on HS2 with trains swapping to UK gauge locos at the railhead. However this would probably only be if there was a batch of existing Continental gauge diesels available at a good price.

 

[The Planner]

People are running away with this, it will be 66s, why bother using anything else? just because the gauge is bigger it doesn't mean the construction traffic will be. HS2 will use the easiest to procure locos and wagons, ie: the ones that are about already in the UK. If they have to buy anything it will be the easiest ones to get rid of at the end to people like NSC at NR and the FOCs.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's worth considering how things were done during the construction of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (Now HS1). That used class 66s, hired from EWS and Freightliner, for the most part for tracklaying and ballasting, with some heritage traction (class 14, class 20) in use to shunt the site at Beechbrook Farm.

It'd be nice to think that a number of class 60s could be renovated (I think they'll need a bit more than just "dusting off"! ) for this purpose as a sort of swansong for some members of the class, but the tracklaying and ballasting stage of HS2 construction is still some years off yet, so the locos will have had a further five years (or more?) to deteriorate from their current condition.

Here's a contemporary report on the process used for CTRL construction:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...n-time-tracklaying-poised-to-set-records.html
Just-in-time tracklaying poised to set records
01 Sep 2001

INTRO: A demanding schedule has been set for installing track and M&E equipment on the first section of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link. Murray Hughes visited the tracklaying base at Beechbrook Farm near Ashford

VISITORS to Britain arriving by Eurostar consistently express surprise at the slow pace of travel between the Channel Tunnel and London compared with the 300 km/h line speed in France. Not for much longer. Britain's first dedicated high speed railway is making good progress - and Eurostar passengers can see for themselves the construction sites parallel to the existing line between the Tunnel and Ashford.

The 70 km Section 1 of the 109 km line is set to open in May 2003, cutting 20min off journey times from London to Paris and Brussels. Parts of the formation are already complete and awaiting tracklaying, due to start on November 12.

Once the first track is laid, work will proceed rapidly as the contractors have an access window of just 11 months for use of the worksite at Beechbrook Farm near Ashford. This summer saw the site buzzing with furious activity as the tracklaying and other equipment teams prepared for the day when they begin laying steel.

One small milestone was passed on June 10 when a Class 37 diesel loco propelled a train of 24 tonne ballast wagons into the site. Carrying several hundred tonnes of ballast for the worksite's own tracks totalling 14·8 km, it gave the staff a foretaste of what is to come. For ballasting will be crucial to the whole process.

Bob Doty, CTRL Contract Manager for Contract 570, says that 'ballast delivery drives everything'. Every morning 6000 tonnes of granite will arrive in four trainloads from the Isle of Grain, where it is stockpiled en route from quarries in Scotland. In case of problems, there will be one week's additional stockpile at Sevington east of Ashford and two trains with 1500 tonnes of ballast 'on standby'.

Such measures are needed because the tight timescale for tracklaying and installing other equipment leaves no room for delay. 'We have come up with plans to deal with anything we can think of', says Doty, who believes that records may be set for the speed of work.

Doty, whose railway project management experience dates back to the 1970s, sees the job in terms of minimising risk and balancing this stricture with cost. 'We are trying to minimise risk by sticking with known, but best-case, technology'. But he acknowledges that this is 'inconsistent with engineering - you can sum it up in the saying that better is the evil of good, and I have worked on jobs where they engineered until the paint was dry.'

Doty has no intention of that happening with the CTRL. Next month the Beechbrook Farm site will be in full swing, but given the 11-month deadline there will be no room for mistakes or delays - 'the programmed work must be completed every day as a day lost cannot be recovered', he says. 'The two primary challenges are that the site is rather small and that it has to be managed on a just-in-time basis; we are not allowed to store materials, and this makes it almost a factory environment.' When the site is at full throttle with up to 2000 people at work, 'up to 20 different units will be dispatched every morning'.

Anglo-French team

Doty says that the tracklaying teams 'will use SNCF methodologies', and indeed contractor AMEC Spie Rail Systems has a number of French staff at Beechbrook Farm, some of whom had worked on TGV Méditerranée. Deputy Construction Manager for Contract 570 David Taylor feels that the combination of British and French expertise 'has worked very well with a genuine meeting of minds'. Bringing the international team together has meant 'taking the blinkers off' and has included language courses at all levels 'as nothing must be lost in translation - and all this had to be incorporated into the planning.'

The tracklaying and equipment installation process along the alignment begins with cable troughs, cross channels and cable-laying, followed by footings for overhead line equipment. Tracklaying can then begin, followed by erection of masts and 25 kV 50Hz catenary, which is to the standard SNCF design for 300 km/h. Finally, the TVM430 signalling, communications and other M&E equipment will go in, although some communications equipment at sites off the alignment was in fact installed in July.

The first track will be laid from Beechbrook Farm towards Ashford, but this will be just for staff training. The head of steel will proceed first towards Fawkham Junction, and only then will the teams work back from Beechbrook Farm towards the Channel Tunnel.

Doty says that tracklaying must go forward at 'a minimum of 1100m a day' (550m of double track), with peaks of 1300m expected. The process entails assembly at Beechbrook Farm of temporary panels that are laid out along the alignment to form one track over around 7 km. Sleeper and rail trains then use this to install the permanent track consisting of Stanton Bonna concrete sleepers spaced at 600mm intervals. Long welded UIC60 rail from Thyssen-Krupp (taken over by Voest-Alpine in July) is then installed and affixed with Vossloh fastenings. Final ballasting then takes place.

As many as seven ballasting passes will be needed to achieve the nominal ballast depth of 350mm with six 16 wagon trains a day leaving Beechbrook Farm in the charge of Class 66 locomotives, hire of which Doty was negotiating in July.

 

[route:oxford]

People are running away with this, it will be 66s, why bother using anything else? just because the gauge is bigger it doesn't mean the construction traffic will be. HS2 will use the easiest to procure locos and wagons, ie: the ones that are about already in the UK. If they have to buy anything it will be the easiest ones to get rid of at the end to people like NSC at NR and the FOCs.

Although, it wouldn't be impossible for various lobby groups to demand clauses that only locos that meet the current european standards for emissions for new-build engines are used.

 

[Strathclyder]

It's worth considering how things were done during the construction of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (Now HS1). That used class 66s, hired from EWS and Freightliner, for the most part for tracklaying and ballasting, with some heritage traction (class 14, class 20) in use to shunt the site at Beechbrook Farm.

Privately owned 20s were also used on some of the CTRL OHLE wiring trains. D8001 & D8142 were two of those locos.

 

[Emblematic]

Although, it wouldn't be impossible for various lobby groups to demand clauses that only locos that meet the current european standards for emissions for new-build engines are used.

They could, but as it wouldn't be a reasonable demand, it's unlikely to be given any consideration (especially if no locomotives to that spec. exist at the time.)

 

[Topgun333]

I think UKRL is lining up its renovated 56s for a bid also.

 

[JMH77]

For sure if DBS get a look in they will refurbish all of their class 58's and use them!