How many people still have no bank account and still have no smartphones or computers or internet access.

[busestrains]

In the thread about EU entry rules in was mentioned that the new ETIAS required a bank account and internet access. It was mentioned by some that almost everyone has that these days so i have started a new thread to discuss this to avoid going off topic in that one. I wonder how many other people these days do not have a bank account and how many people do not have a smartphone or computer or internet access.

I personally do not have a bank account and have never had a bank account in my life. The main reason is that i have never needed one so never bothered opening one and also i really do not like the idea of the banks and governments having control over my money.

People always act like it must be so difficult not having a bank account but i have always found it very easy to get by without one. I pay all of my bills and taxes at the Post Office and in fact most things are done through the Post Office so they make it quite easy. I doubt i would manage without a Bank Account if the Post Office did not exist. Although you can also use Pay Point and Pay Zone for many things.

I send cash to other people and receive cash from other people by using the Moneygram or Western Union or Post Office Money Order services. You can even buy a lot of stuff online by purchasing Gift Cards in shops. For example to order on Amazon you just buy a Gift Card for Amazon in the shops. Obviously in London you can use Oyster without a bank account by topping up in shops so you can get the same fares as contactless.

I have my own small business which i have been running for almost fourty years and i deal solely with cash. I pay my suppliers in cash and pay my staff in cash and only accept cash from customers. I know there are plenty of other small businesses like mine so cash is still very much in use (and before anyone accuses me of it i am NOT a tax evader and my reasons for not having a bank account do NOT have anything to do with avoiding taxes).

But i do wonder how many people in the UK do not have bank accounts? Is there any statistics or estimates? I would be interested how many people other forum members know who do not have bank accounts and what are the ages of them too? Also what is the situation in other countries as i know many countries (especially Eastern Europe and also most third world countries) it is very common not to have a bank account while other countries (especially Sweden which is a nightmare for cash users like myself) probably have far fewer people without bank accounts than the UK?

I am certainly not the only one as i have a couple of friends in their 40s and 50s and 60s who have no bank account either. But i reckon it is quite rare these days compared to say fourty years ago. Also both my parents do not have a bank account (although they are both in their 90s so it is probably very common for people of that age to not have a bank account).

Similarly i wonder how many people do not have a smartphone or computer or internet access? Does anyone on here know anyone without any of these?

I never used the internet or computers or smartphones (or even a mobile phone) before 2010. It took me a while to start using these. But since then i do have a computer and a smartphone. The internet and technology is great (this forum is a great example of the great things about the internet) but in some ways i do kind of prefer the days before the internet and smartphones and computers were invented.

Again my parents (who are in their 90s now) have never used smartphones or computers or the internet. They do not even have a mobile phone. So i guess it is still quite common for older people. But i reckon that it must be extremely rare for anyone who is not either an OAP or homeless to not have a smartphone or computer or internet access these days.

So i would be interested to hear your thoughts on how many people currently do not have a bank account or how many people currently do not have a smartphone or computer or internet access? Does anyone think there will ever be a time when 100% of the population has these?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As benefits can only be paid into a bank account I suspect very, very few adults now eschew one. I don't have figures but likely it is well below 1%.

Anyone can get Internet access at a public library. Therefore if they want it that is already at 100%.

Smartphones, well, I suspect it is mostly very old people who don't and that demographic is bluntly rapidly dying off. But many won't know how to use most features and will just use it as a phone.

 

[duncanp]

I would have thought it is comparatively rare for people not to have a bank account.

But the early stages of the COVID pandemic showed that there were significant numbers of people who didn't have internet access (ie. they couldn't do remote learning from home when schools were closed) and didn't have smartphones either.

This fact is often lost on companies in the rush to do everything online, especially banks who have been closing branches at an accelerated rate over the past few years.

This thread

Bluestar (Go Ahead) plans to withdraw “TheKey” ITSO smart card

Announced alongside a fares update, apparently Bluestar consider their “TheKey” smartcard to be “old technology” and plan to withdraw it shortly: https://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/changes-fares-monday-31-october You will notice some prices are more expensive on our smartcard theKey, which is now...

www.railforums.co.uk

outlines plans by a bus company to withdraw a smartcard, leaving people with little choice but to use the smartphone app.

And if you don't have a smartphone, or even if you do have a smartphone but it is not compatible with the app, what are you supposed to do?

Then you have the unwelcome trend of App based supermarkets, where you have to download a smartphone app to enter the store, and scan each item as you shop. Whilst it is convenient for some people, you are excluded from using that supermarket if you don't have a smartphone.

If this trend continues, there will be many people who are excluded from large sections of society, or where even the most basic functions of daily living are more time consuming and difficult.

It will be some time before 100% of the population have smartphones and internet access. The government would have to decide how to provide these services for those who cannot afford to pay for it themselves.

 

[busestrains]

As benefits can only be paid into a bank account I suspect very, very few adults now eschew one. I don't have figures but likely it is well below 1%.

Anyone can get Internet access at a public library. Therefore if they want it that is already at 100%.

Smartphones, well, I suspect it is mostly very old people who don't and that demographic is bluntly rapidly dying off. But many won't know how to use most features and will just use it as a phone.

Benefits can still be paid in cash. There is something called the "Payment Exception Service" for people who do not have bank accounts. This allows you to pick up your benefits at a Post Office (or Pay Point or Pay Zone too i believe) so it is possible. A bank account is not required for benefits.

 

[najaB]

But the early stages of the COVID pandemic showed that there were significant numbers of people who didn't have internet access (ie. they couldn't do remote learning from home when schools were closed) and didn't have smartphones either.

A lot of that was people who only have limited access to the Internet, which couldn't support the higher needs of remote working/learning.

For example, a 500MB/month PAYG phone pack was plenty when it was being used to message on WhatsApp but would only last a day or two for remote learning. Not to mention access speed.

As to the OP's question. Yes, there will be some people who don't have either a bank account and/or Internet access. But they will be a very small minority who, for reasons that make sense to themselves, choose to go out of their way to make their lives more difficult than they need to be.

 

[busestrains]

I would have thought it is comparatively rare for people not to have a bank account.

But the early stages of the COVID pandemic showed that there were significant numbers of people who didn't have internet access (ie. they couldn't do remote learning from home when schools were closed) and didn't have smartphones either.

This fact is often lost on companies in the rush to do everything online, especially banks who have been closing branches at an accelerated rate over the past few years.

This thread

Bluestar (Go Ahead) plans to withdraw “TheKey” ITSO smart card

Announced alongside a fares update, apparently Bluestar consider their “TheKey” smartcard to be “old technology” and plan to withdraw it shortly: https://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/changes-fares-monday-31-october You will notice some prices are more expensive on our smartcard theKey, which is now...

www.railforums.co.uk

outlines plans by a bus company to withdraw a smartcard, leaving people with little choice but to use the smartphone app.

And if you don't have a smartphone, or even if you do have a smartphone but it is not compatible with the app, what are you supposed to do?

Then you have the unwelcome trend of App based supermarkets, where you have to download a smartphone app to enter the store, and scan each item as you shop. Whilst it is convenient for some people, you are excluded from using that supermarket if you don't have a smartphone.

If this trend continues, there will be many people who are excluded from large sections of society, or where even the most basic functions of daily living are more time consuming and difficult.

It will be some time before 100% of the population have smartphones and internet access. The government would have to decide how to provide these services for those who cannot afford to pay for it themselves.

Yes far too much is only available online these days. It is fine to have that option but they need to have other options as well for people who do not have a smartphone to use an app.

Although that bus company is withdrawing the smartcard they are still selling cash tickets onboard for Single and Return and Day tickets. But it will mean those without smartphones will have to pay more as they will have to buy tickets every day rather than getting cheaper monthly and annual tickets.

With the news the Go Ahead are starting to withdraw their Key smartcard it makes me wonder if TFL will withdraw the Oyster Card eventually. Similarly i wonder if places like Sainsburys and Tesco will withdraw their plastic rewards cards and make that app only too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then you have the unwelcome trend of App based supermarkets, where you have to download a smartphone app to enter the store, and scan each item as you shop. Whilst it is convenient for some people, you are excluded from using that supermarket if you don't have a smartphone.

It isn't a trend, it's an experiment. There are about 3 in the whole country, on the same street in the City of London, a place where basically 100% of people will have phones. Even then they cause mass confusion so I think they are a failed experiment.

Card only and no staffed checkouts (or only one for booze and fags) with the option of phone self scan is more likely to win out.

 

[najaB]

It isn't a trend, it's an experiment. There are about 3 in the whole country, on the same street in the City of London, a place where basically 100% of people will have phones. Even then they cause mass confusion so I think they are a failed experiment.

Card only and no staffed checkouts (or only one for booze and fags) with the option of self scan is more likely to win out.

Without wanting to derail the thread, I wouldn't call it a failed experiment any more than formulas WD-1 to WD-39 were failed experiments...

 

[DelayRepay]

Although that bus company is withdrawing the smartcard they are still selling cash tickets onboard for Single and Return and Day tickets. But it will mean those without smartphones will have to pay more as they will have to buy tickets every day rather than getting cheaper monthly and annual tickets.

I would imagine that it costs the bus company more to process and bank the small amount of cash than it costs them to process the equivalent fares paid by app. So I think it's fair that those who pay by cash are charged more to cover these costs. Or the other way of looking at it is that the app users receive a discount.

With the news the Go Ahead are starting to withdraw their Key smartcard it makes me wonder if TFL will withdraw the Oyster Card eventually. Similarly i wonder if places like Sainsburys and Tesco will withdraw their plastic rewards cards and make that app only too.

I don't think Morrisons issue plastic loyalty cards any more (although their loyalty scheme is pretty useless anyway!). If you already have a card, it still works, but someone wants a new one they have to use the app. John Lewis call their loyalty scheme the 'My John Lewis Card' but despite this I think it's only available as an app. Personally this does not bother me - I don't carry a wallet full of cards round any more, I've got them all on my phone. Much easier.

Even the stores that still offer cards provide additional benefits to app users. For example Sainsburys give various extra nectar point offers through the app each week, and Tesco sometimes have coupons like double points available in the Clubcard app. They used to send these kind of coupons by post but I don't think they do any more.

I have my own small business which i have been running for almost fourty years and i deal solely with cash. I pay my suppliers in cash and pay my staff in cash and only accept cash from customers. I know there are plenty of other small businesses like mine so cash is still very much in use (and before anyone accuses me of it i am NOT a tax evader and my reasons for not having a bank account do NOT have anything to do with avoiding taxes).

I guess how practical this is depends on the nature of the business and its customer base. But (purely out of interest), how easy is it to deal with your tax affairs using paper tax returns and settling your tax bill with cash? Presumably your business doesn't employ anyone or need to be registered for VAT as I think those types of tax returns have to be submitted electronically.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes far too much is only available online these days. It is fine to have that option but they need to have other options as well for people who do not have a smartphone to use an app.

Essential services, perhaps. But businesses do not have to. You’ve made a conscious decision to remain unbanked, aware of the downsides, and that’s a choice you need to live with, or change if it becomes too costly.

 

[najaB]

Essential services, perhaps. But businesses do not have to. You’ve made a conscious decision to remain unbanked, aware of the downsides, and that’s a choice you need to live with, or change if it becomes too costly.

Agreed. It's up to each business to decide if the cost of providing support via a given channel is worth it to them as compared to the income that would be lost by not providing that channel.

So, for example, if providing a telephone helpdesk costs them £50K a year, and closing that helpdesk would only result in them losing £4K worth of business then why should they be forced to absorb that £46K?

 

[Cloud Strife]

But the early stages of the COVID pandemic showed that there were significant numbers of people who didn't have internet access (ie. they couldn't do remote learning from home when schools were closed) and didn't have smartphones either.

This was a major issue in Poland. It wasn't even so much access to the equipment as access to the internet, which (as it turned out), was very patchy in rural areas when it came to a fast enough connection.

For example, a 500MB/month PAYG phone pack was plenty when it was being used to message on WhatsApp but would only last a day or two for remote learning. Not to mention access speed.

I'm loosely connected to the topic, but in general, what happened here was that it all depended on the willpower of the local social services. The better run ones were able to sort out internet access, but the worse run ones were hopeless and kids simply went without any education during that time. Where I live, the municipal social services managed to organise laptops and dongles for anyone in need, but only because a local councillor simply went to every single IT company she could find to rustle up equipment, then she arranged with a local virtual operator to offer free access to MS Teams and Google.

 

[Busaholic]

I would have thought it is comparatively rare for people not to have a bank account.

About 4% of the adult population (1.2 to 1.3 million) according to the Financial Conduct Authority in their financial life survey in early 2020, down from about 1.7 million a few years earlier.

The old age pension can be paid into a bank or Post Office account, but if you choose the bank option you can't change later, in theory at least. That means that other payments based on that pension (e.g. Winter fuel allowance) are automatically paid into that account.

 

[DelayRepay]

To be fair when the pandemic started here and we started to ask people to work from home, there were a surprising number of staff who didn't have broadband. Quite a few just used their mobile data (which for most was not a practical way of working at home).

I remember having a dispute with one employee - he couldn't work from home because he didn't have broadband. But he refused to come into the office as he claimed he was being discriminated against (he wasn't on any kind of shielding or vulnerable list though). I suggested he either come into the office, or order a broadband connection and then use annual leave until it was installed.

 

[Typhoon]

I don't think Morrisons issue plastic loyalty cards any more (although their loyalty scheme is pretty useless anyway!). If you already have a card, it still works, but someone wants a new one they have to use the app.

You can get a new card if you already have an account:

How do I request a new My Morrisons card?​

To replace your My Morrisons card you just need to use one of the following simple options.
Via website www.mymorrisons.com

1. Login with the Email & Password combination you entered when registering.
2. Click on 'My Account'
3. Select Replace/Cancel Card
4. Click on 'Report my card as lost or stolen' if you have lost your card
5. Click on 'Request a replacement for a damaged card' if you have damaged your card
6. Click on 'Cancel Card' if you would like to no longer be in the scheme

Underlined section - absolutely agree. Even the Co-op's deals are better than theirs.

https://www.morrisons.com/help/my-m...sons,if you have damaged your card More items

 

[Rheoman]

My wife who works for Citizens Advice was trying to sort out benefits for a client who had not long been released from prison.
When it came to the bank account details the benefits would be paid to, the claimant toLd my wife he was barred from holding a UK bank account as he had been convicted previously of armed robbery on a bank!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

What about savings? I would not want to keep a lot of cash at home, it has to be in a bank account.

 

[JGurney]

It isn't a trend, it's an experiment. There are about 3 in the whole country, on the same street in the City of London,

There is one, an Amazon grocery, just outside Richmond station.

What about savings? I would not want to keep a lot of cash at home, it has to be in a bank account.

I suspect that a substantial number of those without bank accounts are more likely to be at risk of debt than to have savings.
In the early years of the London Oyster card, I recall being surprised to find that many adult basic skills students were still paying cash bus fares rather than getting Oyster cards and paying significantly less. It turned out that due to the physical resemblance between an Oyster card and a credit card, many had a confused idea that using an Oyster card could result in running up debts

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair when the pandemic started here and we started to ask people to work from home, there were a surprising number of staff who didn't have broadband. Quite a few just used their mobile data (which for most was not a practical way of working at home).

I remember having a dispute with one employee - he couldn't work from home because he didn't have broadband. But he refused to come into the office as he claimed he was being discriminated against (he wasn't on any kind of shielding or vulnerable list though). I suggested he either come into the office, or order a broadband connection and then use annual leave until it was installed.

Working on a 4G connection is totally viable. Some people even have a home 4G router and no cabled connection. I would have offered to arrange that, for business use only.

 

[Acfb]

....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Smartphones, well, I suspect it is mostly very old people who don't and that demographic is bluntly rapidly dying off. But many won't know how to use most features and will just use it as a phone.

That is why it is called a smartphone...

 

[najaB]

Working on a 4G connection is totally viable.

That depends entirely on the signal strength in the area - I can get a 4G signal indoors but it's barely strong enough to stay in LTE and more often than not drops back to either HSPA/HSPA+ or sometimes even EDGE.

 

[DelayRepay]

That depends entirely on the signal strength in the area - I can get a 4G signal indoors but it's barely strong enough to stay in LTE and more often than not drops back to either HSPA/HSPA+ or sometimes even EDGE.

Same here. Our corporate telecoms are provided by O2 and I get a poor 4G signal. Fine for checking emails on my phone, but not good enough to work through especially if running multiple applications and using VOIP or video conferencing software. My personal mobile, on a different network is fine but I won't use it for work as I don't have unlimited data.

 

[PGAT]

For Internet Access there are actually numbers online. As of 2021 the UK has 65,001,016 internet users which was roughly 96.6% at the time.

(Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users)

 

[Busaholic]

For Internet Access there are actually numbers online. As of 2021 the UK has 65,001,016 internet users which was roughly 96.6% at the time.

(Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_Internet_users)

I'd treat that figure with suspicion, given the definition of internet user there. Anyone accessing the internet just once in the year, perhaps on a mobile phone, and quite possibly on a borrowed or communal (e.g. library) machine is included, which is probably due to this country insisting on accessing official websites for many matters where other countries offer alternatives. For instance why would the Netherlands only come in at 90.6% and Italy at 85.3% using the same criteria if coercion was not being encouraged, if not enforced?

 

[najaB]

Anyone accessing the internet just once in the year, perhaps on a mobile phone, and quite possibly on a borrowed or communal (e.g. library) machine is included, which is probably due to this country insisting on accessing official websites for many matters where other countries offer alternatives.

Actually, the UK is some way behind many of our European neighbors where the move to online is concerned.

I was recently speaking with a friend from France who was complaining about the amount of actual paper and going in person that he has to do here Vs at home.

 

[Andrew S]

It isn't a trend, it's an experiment. There are about 3 in the whole country, on the same street in the City of London, a place where basically 100% of people will have phones. Even then they cause mass confusion so I think they are a failed experiment.

Card only and no staffed checkouts (or only one for booze and fags) with the option of phone self scan is more likely to win out.

There's the Lidl in Greenwich too.

 

[Busaholic]

Actually, the UK is some way behind many of our European neighbors where the move to online is concerned.

I was recently speaking with a friend from France who was complaining about the amount of actual paper and going in person that he has to do here Vs at home.

I've no personal knowledge of the position in France, but I too have a friend who, just prior to Brexit kicking in, had to travel in person to a tiny French commune to complete the sale of a tiny property she and her husband had purchased on a mortgage years earlier. Her husband now had advanced dementia and the local council in the U.K. were demanding the sale be completed before they would agree to pay a proportion of the huge fees involved in his care: she was already stressed out, and there was nothing in the process that could not have been done online in this country. but the Mairie rules! As the couple were both retired, they chose to live in their French cottage for the summer and took their cat with them, and again the French bureaucracy both at the border and at the vets with showing up in person with forms to be signed was massive.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Anyone can get Internet access at a public library. Therefore if they want it that is already at 100%.

Smartphones, well, I suspect it is mostly very old people who don't and that demographic is bluntly rapidly dying off. But many won't know how to use most features and will just use it as a phone.

Many of those who do not know how to use the features of a smartphone may also not know how to use the internet - and may live many miles from a public library (and these days not just in rural areas.)

 

[Sm5]

In the thread about EU entry rules in was mentioned that the new ETIAS required a bank account and internet access. It was mentioned by some that almost everyone has that these days so i have started a new thread to discuss this to avoid going off topic in that one. I wonder how many other people these days do not have a bank account and how many people do not have a smartphone or computer or internet access.

I personally do not have a bank account and have never had a bank account in my life. The main reason is that i have never needed one so never bothered opening one and also i really do not like the idea of the banks and governments having control over my money.

People always act like it must be so difficult not having a bank account but i have always found it very easy to get by without one. I pay all of my bills and taxes at the Post Office and in fact most things are done through the Post Office so they make it quite easy. I doubt i would manage without a Bank Account if the Post Office did not exist. Although you can also use Pay Point and Pay Zone for many things.

I send cash to other people and receive cash from other people by using the Moneygram or Western Union or Post Office Money Order services. You can even buy a lot of stuff online by purchasing Gift Cards in shops. For example to order on Amazon you just buy a Gift Card for Amazon in the shops. Obviously in London you can use Oyster without a bank account by topping up in shops so you can get the same fares as contactless.

I have my own small business which i have been running for almost fourty years and i deal solely with cash. I pay my suppliers in cash and pay my staff in cash and only accept cash from customers. I know there are plenty of other small businesses like mine so cash is still very much in use (and before anyone accuses me of it i am NOT a tax evader and my reasons for not having a bank account do NOT have anything to do with avoiding taxes).

But i do wonder how many people in the UK do not have bank accounts? Is there any statistics or estimates? I would be interested how many people other forum members know who do not have bank accounts and what are the ages of them too? Also what is the situation in other countries as i know many countries (especially Eastern Europe and also most third world countries) it is very common not to have a bank account while other countries (especially Sweden which is a nightmare for cash users like myself) probably have far fewer people without bank accounts than the UK?

I am certainly not the only one as i have a couple of friends in their 40s and 50s and 60s who have no bank account either. But i reckon it is quite rare these days compared to say fourty years ago. Also both my parents do not have a bank account (although they are both in their 90s so it is probably very common for people of that age to not have a bank account).

Similarly i wonder how many people do not have a smartphone or computer or internet access? Does anyone on here know anyone without any of these?

I never used the internet or computers or smartphones (or even a mobile phone) before 2010. It took me a while to start using these. But since then i do have a computer and a smartphone. The internet and technology is great (this forum is a great example of the great things about the internet) but in some ways i do kind of prefer the days before the internet and smartphones and computers were invented.

Again my parents (who are in their 90s now) have never used smartphones or computers or the internet. They do not even have a mobile phone. So i guess it is still quite common for older people. But i reckon that it must be extremely rare for anyone who is not either an OAP or homeless to not have a smartphone or computer or internet access these days.

So i would be interested to hear your thoughts on how many people currently do not have a bank account or how many people currently do not have a smartphone or computer or internet access? Does anyone think there will ever be a time when 100% of the population has these?

How do you pay the Inland Revenue, for Staff NI, income tax, employment taxes even business taxes ?

Do the IR accept cash ?
Same question for pension contributions ?