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How much longer will social distancing go on for in the UK?

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bramling

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Do you mean "possibly hit"? How he leaves office is a big question mark as there are two factions who want him out for different reasons: if he goes because too many have died and the overall handling has been shambolic in the "everything done late/half hearted" sense, he'll probably resign on his own accord once the vaccine rollout allows most if not all restrictions to be lifted. If however he doesn't lift them quick enough for the CRG's liking and the fallout from all this becomes very apparent while Johnson is still in charge, his departure will more likely be through "resign or we'll kick you out" from his own party.

From a deaths' perspective I don't think there's much more that, for a while at least, can now be viewed in similar light to today; above 100,000 landmarks are fewer and further between (I'd say 150,000 is next), and the peak death rate appears to be coinciding with the 100k, so if it's all going down from here any "alarmist" media reporting will be plainly obvious.


The peak in infections was on the 8th January, so by virtue of the "deaths within 28 days of a positive test, they'll be falling by the 5th February at the latest, but as 28 days is the end point, not the start point, they may well fall earlier, but the rate could well be falling rapidly in the week or two leading up to the mid-February review, given how rapidly it appears to be dropping right now.

Yes apologies did mean “hit”. I think he has crossed a psychological line, where he knows the death figure will be the sole defining take-away from his PM tenure. Likewise the various theories about him resigning on the claim of ill-health could well be overtaken by events, and he finds himself having to resign simply for being the PM who presided over 100,000 deaths.

Whether this is entirely fair is another matter. Whilst the response has been shambolic, in all fairness I’m not sure many of those deaths were preventable. It doesn’t help that we don’t seem to compare well to other countries (so much for lockdowns working!). The trouble is that everything he has done has either been done in the wrong way or at the wrong time. I don’t think he’s ever going to shake off the allegation of having “locked down too late, not once but twice” - in time I suspect it will be for him what Iraq was for Blair. The only partial saving grace may well be if the vaccine programme continues to go relatively well.

Don’t read the above as being too sympathetic to him though, the handling of the whole affair has been dire and he should be held accountable for that, and I for one want to see the back of him. Just that I don’t think the 100,000 figure is all on his head.
 
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MikeWM

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I don’t think he’s ever going to shake off the allegation of having “locked down too late, not once but twice”

We have to strongly resist that becoming the prevailing narrative, else lockdowns will become a regular feature of life whenever a potentially worrying-looking virus comes along. There's been at least 6 or 7 over the last 20 years, for example.
 

brad465

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We have to strongly resist that becoming the prevailing narrative, else lockdowns will become a regular feature of life whenever a potentially worrying-looking virus comes along. There's been at least 6 or 7 over the last 20 years, for example.
Unfortunately the best way to do that is to ensure all the deaths and suffering caused by lockdowns are thrown in the spotlight as much as possible, with primary emphasis on suicides and cancer, among others, then unemployment and poverty, followed by the amount of national and private debt build-up that's come with this.
 

Scotrail12

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Unfortunately the best way to do that is to ensure all the deaths and suffering caused by lockdowns are thrown in the spotlight as much as possible, with primary emphasis on suicides and cancer, among others, then unemployment and poverty, followed by the amount of national and private debt build-up that's come with this.
This is already happening in a way, I have noticed more coverage being given to mental health issues this week.
 

Class 33

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But what are the chances he'll stick to anything in the road map? I'd say pretty close to zero.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic about all this. Things are heading in the right direction now with all the cases/healthcare/deaths stats. Johnson has said he'll publish a roadmap out of lockdown and restrictions in the next few weeks. I think chances are he very aims to get us out of all this. Just got to hope that something or other doesn't go and mess things up again such as yet another new variant, or problems with the vaccine supplies, or whatever. But I'm feeling more positive now about things. Within 5 or 6 months tops, this country should be in a very much better place.
 

DB

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I wouldn't be so pessimistic about all this. Things are heading in the right direction now with all the cases/healthcare/deaths stats. Johnson has said he'll publish a roadmap out of lockdown and restrictions in the next few weeks. I think chances are he very aims to get us out of all this. Just got to hope that something or other doesn't go and mess things up again such as yet another new variant, or problems with the vaccine supplies, or whatever. But I'm feeling more positive now about things. Within 5 or 6 months tops, this country should be in a very much better place.

I suspect that Sunak will be putting pressure on him due to the financial implications too.
 

chris11256

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PM has said 'other economic and social restrictions would be lifted from then or thereafter 8 March - as and when the data permits.'
Link

The PM says other economic and social restrictions would be lifted from then or thereafter 8 March - as and when the data permits.

Returning to education, he says, as remote learning will continue, the government will prolong arrangements for providing free school meals for those eligible children not in school, including food parcels and the national voucher scheme, until they return to the classroom.

The government will also provide a programme of catch-up over the next financial year, involving a further £300m funding for tutoring.

Specific initiatives for summer schools will also be developed, he says.

There will also be a long-term plan to make sure pupils have the chance to make up their learning over the course of this parliament, the PM adds.

He closes his statement by stressing that the way forward has been clear ever since the vaccines arrived.

"Our goal now must be to buy the extra weeks we need to immunise the vulnerable and get this virus under control," he says.

Subject to the usual caveats of cases and deaths going down and vaccinations going as planned.
 

brad465

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I wouldn't be so pessimistic about all this. Things are heading in the right direction now with all the cases/healthcare/deaths stats. Johnson has said he'll publish a roadmap out of lockdown and restrictions in the next few weeks. I think chances are he very aims to get us out of all this. Just got to hope that something or other doesn't go and mess things up again such as yet another new variant, or problems with the vaccine supplies, or whatever. But I'm feeling more positive now about things. Within 5 or 6 months tops, this country should be in a very much better place.
The roadmap between early May and early July was done on time throughout, so there is a precedent, especially if the CRG keep lobbying him.

This is already happening in a way, I have noticed more coverage being given to mental health issues this week.
A Tory MP asked Johnson about this in PMQs earlier, and a recent Question Time episode with a Police Chief guest raised the dealing of mental health problems in their response as well.
 

MikeWM

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Unfortunately the best way to do that is to ensure all the deaths and suffering caused by lockdowns are thrown in the spotlight as much as possible, with primary emphasis on suicides and cancer, among others, then unemployment and poverty, followed by the amount of national and private debt build-up that's come with this.

I have feared for some time that the only way we avoid doing this ever again is if the fallout from this time around is sufficiently horrible.

However, I think the fallout *is* going to be rather horrible, so maybe that will work :-/
 

Yew

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I have feared for some time that the only way we avoid doing this ever again is if the fallout from this time around is sufficiently horrible.

However, I think the fallout *is* going to be rather horrible, so maybe that will work :-/
Unfortunately, it is also in the future, and our government are too blinkered to notice.
 

westv

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Hopefully now that grim milestone has passed we'll get a bit less focus on deaths for a couple of weeks
Our local news this evening opened with a news item about deaths in the area since it started.
 

HSTEd

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Front page in Telegraph suggests lockdown until May and Rule of Six to the end of the year
 

6862

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Front page in Telegraph suggests lockdown until May and Rule of Six to the end of the year

I'd say that's a very optimistic view of things. It wouldn't surprise me if the Rule of Six remains permanently, although personally I think a permanent ban on socialising is also quite likely.
 

DB

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Front page in Telegraph suggests lockdown until May and Rule of Six to the end of the year

If the government wants to completely undermine itself by imposing restrictions which will be widely ignored, that's certainly how to go about it! Soon as the warmer weather comes, there's absolutely no chance of the lockdown measures being followed.
 

yorksrob

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Front page in Telegraph suggests lockdown until May and Rule of Six to the end of the year

Government will be in for a surprise then.

(at this point I would normally turn to the BBC for confirmation, but know its not worth it).
 

DB

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I'd say that's a very optimistic view of things. It wouldn't surprise me if the Rule of Six remains permanently, although personally I think a permanent ban on socialising is also quite likely.

I think the restrictions are ridiculous, but this sort of hysterical comment doesn't really do anyone any good - they simply can't do this. There is no magic money tree, and it's simply not affordable to carry on with this much longer. It will also be impossible to justify once numbers really start to fall (as they are, and will do a lot more).
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Front page in Telegraph suggests lockdown until May and Rule of Six to the end of the year

It is basically this article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/30/exclusive-social-distancing-may-have-remain-place-year/
Britain may not be able to abandon social distancing rules this year unless a vaccine proves to be 85 per cent effective at stopping transmission of coronavirus as well as severe illness, ministers have been warned.

Modelling commissioned by SPI-M, a subgroup of Sage, and passed to Downing Street suggests the UK will suffer a third huge spike in deaths unless inoculation cuts transmission significantly.

Currently, most experts think efficacy against transmission will be around 60 per cent but there is huge uncertainty.

The paper, produced by modellers at the University of Warwick, warns: "Only vaccines that offer high infection-blocking efficacy with high uptake in the general population allow relaxation of non-pharmaceutical interventions without a huge surge in deaths."

The paper, published last week, makes for grim reading and goes some way to explaining why Boris Johnson has been so reluctant in recent weeks to raise expectations of an end to lockdown.

It is understood that SPI-M's other modelling groups – including Imperial College London and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine – have reached similar conclusions.

"The exact numbers differ, but there is a high degree of consensus", a source told The Telegraph.

The paper finds that even in a best case scenario, in which vaccines stop 85 per cent of transmission in those vaccinated, lockdown would have to be kept in place until the end of May to prevent another significant spike in deaths.

If Mr Johnson lifted the measures in mid-February – when ministers forecast that the top four priority groups will be vaccinated – the modelling suggests a third surge in infections and deaths, of a scale similar to last spring, would follow in April.

If vaccines are 85 per cent transmission blocking, deaths would peak at just under 1,000 a day. At 60 per cent efficacy, daily deaths would approach 1,500.

"While the novel vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 offer a potential exit strategy for this outbreak, this is highly contingent on the infection-blocking (or transmission-blocking) action of the vaccine and the population uptake, both of which need to be carefully monitored as vaccine programmes are rolled out in the UK and other countries," the authors say.

Dr Sam Moore, a post-doctoral research associate at Warwick and one of the paper's authors, said a number of "non-obvious" factors were driving the numbers.

He said that because the natural 'R' rate of the virus was so high – above three – even vaccines that provided "very high" infection blocking would struggle to get the 'R' number below one in the absence of continued social distancing measures.

"There is definitely a sort of threshold," he said. "If we get very high infection blocking then this could almost be what delivers us from it, but it would have to be very high. Even vaccines with 85 per cent infection blocking are insufficient to drive 'R' below one on their own."

Unless 'R' falls below one, the incidence of the virus continues to grow exponentially.

The number of people who remain vulnerable to disease will also remain high for much longer than might be immediately obvious, said Dr Moore. The efficiency of the vaccines in preventing severe disease, the time between doses and overall vaccine uptake all add up.

"The vaccines are not going be 100 per cent effective at stopping serious disease. So if you manage to get, say, 85 per cent of people to take it and it turns out to be 90 per cent effective, that's still 25 per cent of people who could die from it, which is a lot of people," he said.

Nadhim Zahawi, the vaccines minister, said he had not read the Warwick paper but was aware of the issue. Ministers had prioritised work through Public Health England to understand the impact vaccines would have on transmission, he added.

"We're probably another four weeks away from getting some of that data back but it should be able to then allow us to make plans… we'll be able to see the impact of vaccines on transmission and also on hospitalisation and serious infection," Mr Zahawi said.

The Warwick paper models different scenarios for unwinding social distancing. Which one is ultimately chosen by ministers will hinge on the efficacy of the vaccines in preventing transmission, something likely to differ between products.

If the vaccines provide an average 60 per cent block on transmission, which experts hope, then ending lockdown at the end of May and reverting to the social distancing measures that were in place in early September produces the fewest deaths in the Warwick model.

However, those restrictions – which included a prohibition on large events – would have to be maintained until the end of the year.

A Government spokesman said: "At this early stage in the vaccination programme, scientists do not have sufficient data to advise how the vaccine may affect onward transmission.

"As large numbers of people from at risk groups are vaccinated, we will be able to gather the evidence to asses the impact on infection rates, hospitalisation and reduced deaths. It's important to continue following the national restrictions, instructions from NHS Test and Trace and to self-isolate if you are instructed to do so, even if you have had the vaccine."
All based on SAGE modelling, so make of it what you will.
 

HSTEd

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I would love to know the meaning of "huge surge in deaths".

There is no magic money tree, and it's simply not affordable to carry on with this much longer.

The ruling class and their preferred voter demographic would not suffer significant reductions in their standard of living in this was maintained indefinitely.

The people who would suffer don't tend to feature heavily in public policy making at the best of times.
 

yorksrob

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"The vaccines are not going be 100 per cent effective at stopping serious disease. So if you manage to get, say, 85 per cent of people to take it and it turns out to be 90 per cent effective, that's still 25 per cent of people who could die from it, which is a lot of people," he said.

This makes no sense to me mathematically. If someone could explain ?

Come to think of it, they could die, but still a damn site less likely than now.
 

DB

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The ruling class and their preferred voter demographic would not suffer significant reductions in their standard of living in this was maintained indefinitely.

They would - it wouldn't be possible to maintain public services (including the NHS) while also paying a significant part of the population to sit at home watching Netflix.
 

duncanp

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It is basically this article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/30/exclusive-social-distancing-may-have-remain-place-year/

All based on SAGE modelling, so make of it what you will.

As it is based on SAGE modelling, it has about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

At current rates of vaccination, we should be able to vaccinate almost the entire adult population of the UK by some time in June or July.

This is the time when all restrictions should be removed, not when we start to remove restrictions.

Even if cases do go up after restrictions are removed (which is by no means certain) it won't matter so much if a large proportion of the population have some level of immunity, because the symptoms are likely to be less severe, leading to fewer hospitalisations and deaths.

Even Chris Whitty has said that the decision to lift lockdown will be a political one, dependent on how much risk the government is prepared to take.

After Easter, the weather will be better, and respiratory viruses tend to recede in the warmer weather, so the risk involved in removing restrictions is lower.
 

yorksrob

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I can live with social distancing and the rule of six to the end of the year. Easy peasy.

I can't do lockdown until May, and I won't.
 

HSTEd

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They would - it wouldn't be possible to maintain public services (including the NHS) while also paying a significant part of the population to sit at home watching Netflix.

That depends on the definition of public services you use.
If you accept the bulk of the population will have a substantially lower standard of living this is entirely feasible.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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We seem to be forgetting that a vaccine for a respiratory virus with 80-90% efficacy is the exception, not the norm. The flu vaccine only usually has around 40-60% efficacy.

"The vaccines are not going be 100 per cent effective at stopping serious disease. So if you manage to get, say, 85 per cent of people to take it and it turns out to be 90 per cent effective, that's still 25 per cent of people who could die from it, which is a lot of people," he said.
0.85*0.9 = 0.765
1-0.7525 = 0.235

Thus 23.5% of people could still die from it. That's where the numbers come from, but the theory is far from correct.
 

DB

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That depends on the definition of public services you use.
If you accept the bulk of the population will have a substantially lower standard of living this is entirely feasible.

That would see many of those currently supporting the policy no longer doing so - a lot of those who support restrictions are only doing so because they aren't seriously affected (and in many cases ignore the bits which they don't like).
 

yorksrob

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It's ironic really. Hearing an interview about the European vaccine situation it was said that the Germans were worried because the delay would cause them ten difficult weeks. Here we are, we've already started earlier and we're already looking at half of the year imprisoned.

And why do these ******* announcements always turn up on Saturday to ruin my day off. Why can't we export SAGE to the continent, they can have them.
 

DB

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Why can't we export SAGE to the continent, they can have them.

That really wouldn't be fair - what have countries on the continent done to deserve that?!

Do I detect another government leak i.e. lets put the proposal out there and see what the reaction is?

Looks more like one of SAGE's associated research groups trying to get some publicity for themselves.
 

yorksrob

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We seem to be forgetting that a vaccine for a respiratory virus with 80-90% efficacy is the exception, not the norm. The flu vaccine only usually has around 40-60% efficacy.


0.85*0.9 = 0.765
1-0.7525 = 0.235

Thus 23.5% of people could still die from it. That's where the numbers come from, but the theory is far from correct.

Cheers.

So Could, but still at 0.whatever percent likelihood that was previously of the whole population.

I think at this level, we should be given the choice of whether to risk it.

That really wouldn't be fair - what have countries on the continent done to deserve that?!

Yes, I apologise, In the words of Ms Foster, that would be an act of extreme hostility.
 
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