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How much of a general decline in parliamentary standards are we experiencing?

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Gloster

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I would hope the Labour leadership stage an intervention and prevent him standing if Vaz was to rerun. My understanding is candidates are decided by local parties, but they are then vetted and the main party can intervene if the candidate has a controversial past. In this case they wouldn't have to bother digging anywhere to find stuff on Vaz. The fact Starmer has been calling today for Claudia Webbe to resign, and supporting a recall petition if she doesn't, suggests he's taking standards among his party's MPs seriously, so one would hope the same would happen in selecting a new candidate.
Unless Vaz threatens that if Labour don’t let him run as an official candidate, he will run as an independent. Labour does not have a massive majority in Leicester East, just over 6,000, and he had built up quite a power base there: in 2017 he had a majority of over 22,000. Starmer at least has the opportunity to look decisive and make Labour look clean: even losing a seat might be worthwhile if it makes the party appear to be the lily-white one.
 
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DarloRich

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George Eustace was doing the media rounds yesterday morning spouting nonsense. Apparently it is entirely coincidental that people who give the Tories £3m get a seat in the Lords and are, in fact, "philanthropists" and that this is all a storm in a tea cup. They think we are idiots and it is clear they hold us little people in contempt.
 

Typhoon

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Unless Vaz threatens that if Labour don’t let him run as an official candidate, he will run as an independent. Labour does not have a massive majority in Leicester East, just over 6,000, and he had built up quite a power base there: in 2017 he had a majority of over 22,000. Starmer at least has the opportunity to look decisive and make Labour look clean: even losing a seat might be worthwhile if it makes the party appear to be the lily-white one.
No doubt about it. He stands as an independent, grounds for dismissal from the party. He splits the vote - 'having the right candidate is better than winning the election'. Johnson's majority is so big that one seat won't make a difference. The drop in Labour's majority could not just be because of Vaz's personal vote but also some voters refused to back a party in which Vaz had been the candidate.

Labour needs to take the high line on this one at any expense otherwise future candidates will be met with 'you are all the same'.

And, as far as giving up "the cruel world of politics", if he thinks that a thirty day suspension amounts to cruelty. he needs to start living in the same world that most of us inhabit.

There is more likelihood of the 7th circle freezing over than this happening, let's be honest. I personally wouldn't bet on it.
Paterson seemed to be expecting some sort of sympathy. He, and some of his (former) colleagues have missed the mood - sympathy for the families of Brokenshire and Amess, yes, but for an MP who was given a minimal punishment but would not take it, no! There might be more to come
Randox was awarded two Covid testing contracts last year worth nearly £480m without the normal competition. Government officials cited the urgency of the pandemic as grounds for not advertising the contracts.

The company insists Paterson “played no role in securing any Randox contract”, but on 9 April last year the MP had a telephone meeting with the firm and Lord Bethell, then a health minister, about Covid testing.
And is there a recording or transcript of the call? If not, the public is allowed to take whatever view it likes on the content.
(Boris Johnson sleaze crisis deepens amid pressure on Covid deals | Conservatives | The Guardian)
 

Typhoon

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I am fairly certain Vaz is the local party chieftain but the Labour party need to prevent him standing.
You are right. However, I think he still has the 6 months suspension from Parliament unserved; whether that carries over from one parliament to the next I don't know.
I'm not sure what weight the following has:
Ex-Labour MP Keith Vaz should be ashamed of his behaviour towards a House of Commons staff member, a report on his conduct has said.
Mr Vaz's "sustained and unpleasant bullying" of Jenny McCullough had an "enduring psychological impact" on her, a panel of independent experts says.
The panel says Mr Vaz - who stood down as an MP in 2019 - should never be given a Parliamentary pass again.
If this came to a vote in parliament, it would be interesting to see which Labour MPs didn't support it, and how the Conservatives voted.

Quote:Former Labour MP Keith Vaz should be ashamed of bullying behaviour, report says - BBC News
 

nw1

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Germany uses a mixed-member proportional representation system, it doesn't use AV, or if its system can be described as AV, it's certainly not the kind that was being advocated in the 2011 referendum here, which was an alternative form of FPTP in effect.

As for the neo-Nazis issue, firstly the latest election gave them 82 seats, down from the 94 in the previous one. Second, yes it's always concerning when those groups can get representation in such a way, but I think a good counter-argument at the moment is the mainstream Conservative party just moved further to the extreme right to absorb UKIP/BXP votes, knowing their core moderate base would either stay put on a "least worst" basis, or go somewhere else (like the Lib Dems or not vote at all) and not greatly impact the overall result. A similar effect has happened in the US with the Republican party now essentially being the Trump party.

Indeed: the only way the far right is going to be a danger under an alternative voting system is that there are enough Hard Right Tories plus far right to form a coalition to force through worrying policies.

I suspect that we'd overall get a more representative parliament with something other than the undemocratic FPTP, even if that means letting in a few UKIP/BXP types. 32 years Tory government out of 45 (assuming a 2024 election) is Tory governments 71% of the time since 1979 and certainly is not democratic and not representative. And if the Tories get lucky and win a 2024 election, as well as staying in power until 2029, we'll be pushing a figure of 75% for the half-century beginning 1979. No wonder many of us are completely disenfranchised by the British political system. FPTP must go.
 
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brad465

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I am fairly certain Vaz is the local party chieftain but the Labour party need to prevent him standing.
You are right. However, I think he still has the 6 months suspension from Parliament unserved; whether that carries over from one parliament to the next I don't know.
I'm not sure what weight the following has:

If this came to a vote in parliament, it would be interesting to see which Labour MPs didn't support it, and how the Conservatives voted.

Quote:Former Labour MP Keith Vaz should be ashamed of bullying behaviour, report says - BBC News
At the moment Labour are doing well countering all this corruption business, probably helped by Starmer's background in the legal profession. If they want to retain this apparent moral highground then they cannot allow Vaz to stand again. If he does he'd not only likely lose, but it will be used a line of attack against him with calls of hypocrisy.
 

DarloRich

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At the moment Labour are doing well countering all this corruption business, probably helped by Starmer's background in the legal profession. If they want to retain this apparent moral highground then they cannot allow Vaz to stand again. If he does he'd not only likely lose, but it will be used a line of attack against him with calls of hypocrisy.
It shouldn't even be a debate. He, like Webbe, should be barred from standing.
 

Gloster

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Barring people from standing as an officIal candidate is all very well, but once you start barring people from standing at all, you are on a slippery slope. You may start with convictions for a limited number of offences, but what next? Banning people who are awaiting trial on serious or electoral offences, even though they haven’t been tried yet? The case might be ridiculous, but, ”We, the government, take cases like this very seriously.”
 

Typhoon

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Barring people from standing as an officIal candidate is all very well, but once you start barring people from standing at all, you are on a slippery slope. You may start with convictions for a limited number of offences, but what next? Banning people who are awaiting trial on serious or electoral offences, even though they haven’t been tried yet? The case might be ridiculous, but, ”We, the government, take cases like this very seriously.”
Maybe Labour should seek the guidance of the Speaker's office as to whether he would be permitted to have a parliamentary pass given the judgement against him and also whether he would have to serve the six month ban. If he was unable to enter parliament, that surely is grounds enough for barring him from standing. It is that rather than any civil or criminal offence, whether convicted or not, which to me is telling.
 

Busaholic

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George Eustace was doing the media rounds yesterday morning spouting nonsense. Apparently it is entirely coincidental that people who give the Tories £3m get a seat in the Lords and are, in fact, "philanthropists" and that this is all a storm in a tea cup. They think we are idiots and it is clear they hold us little people in contempt.
George Eustice is trotted out by the Tories down here in Cornwall whenever newly-minted rubbish is required to be spouted. Would you believe he is considered (by his party) to be the least braindead of Cornwall's full complement of six Tory MPs? What does that say about the rest of the bunch?!
 

Typhoon

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George Eustice is trotted out by the Tories down here in Cornwall whenever newly-minted rubbish is required to be spouted. Would you believe he is considered (by his party) to be the least braindead of Cornwall's full complement of six Tory MPs? What does that say about the rest of the bunch?!
But they are all likely to get in next time. Admittedly I am not local but other than Eustice, I had only ever heard of one (I knew he was an MP, that's it) so it shows they are making an impression! One had the decency to abstain on Paterson (so no chance of a government job there). And to think that 12 years ago there wasn't a Tory from the county. I suppose it is largely down to leaving the EU.
 

brad465

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But they are all likely to get in next time. Admittedly I am not local but other than Eustice, I had only ever heard of one (I knew he was an MP, that's it) so it shows they are making an impression! One had the decency to abstain on Paterson (so no chance of a government job there). And to think that 12 years ago there wasn't a Tory from the county. I suppose it is largely down to leaving the EU.
Even if many of the Cornish MPs are unseated at the next election, if the Tory party can still govern, Eustice will likely just get a peerage going by recent history and rumours around Owen Paterson's future.
 

AM9

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But they are all likely to get in next time. Admittedly I am not local but other than Eustice, I had only ever heard of one (I knew he was an MP, that's it) so it shows they are making an impression! One had the decency to abstain on Paterson (so no chance of a government job there). And to think that 12 years ago there wasn't a Tory from the county. I suppose it is largely down to leaving the EU.
Every time I see his name in the news or hear his ridiculous defences of the indefencible, I am reminded of the cartoon character in the Daily Mirror when I was a child - 'Useless Eustace'. So fitting a name for one of Johnson's stooges. :rolleyes:
 

Busaholic

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Every time I see his name in the news or hear his ridiculous defences of the indefencible, I am reminded of the cartoon character in the Daily Mirror when I was a child - 'Useless Eustace'. So fitting a name for one of Johnson's stooges. :rolleyes:
My wife and I have called him that since first elected! Used to have to be careful as a dogwalking acquaintance was his aunt: only found out as she was telling us of a family party she'd been to. She'd been a farmer's wife, tough as nails, and quite bright, but a Tory through and through. Despite that, I quite liked her, she was a genuine person and not hard-hearted.
 

brad465

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The collection of front pages tomorrow looks bad for Johnson, which includes the Express:

1636413315508.png1636413326645.png1636413337076.png1636413351536.png1636413362441.png1636413385172.png1636413396884.png1636413419081.png

Only the Telegraph has an alternative headline and reserves discussion of apology demands to a tiny bit at the bottom of the front page, but I think all of the above working in effective unison, coupled with the fact this is 6 days on from when the row first erupted, shows just how big a hole Johnson is in right now.
 

dosxuk

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Note the deliberate in-front-of-the-press photos of him not wearing a mask in a hospital when everyone else around him is. Blatant attempt to distract from his failure to attend parliament or offer an apology with a bit of not playing to expectations - he wants people to be talking about the lack of mask, not the running away and hiding.

(In other, less publicised images, he was wearing a mask while meeting and talking to staff, it's only in the main released ones where he goes alone without one).


Completely off topic, but what is it about Times readers which mean they get an extra hour before bedtime compared to Guardian readers?
 

Strathclyder

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Note the deliberate in-front-of-the-press photos of him not wearing a mask in a hospital when everyone else around him is. Blatant attempt to distract from his failure to attend parliament or offer an apology with a bit of not playing to expectations - he wants people to be talking about the lack of mask, not the running away and hiding.

(In other, less publicised images, he was wearing a mask while meeting and talking to staff, it's only in the main released ones where he goes alone without one).
A classic Boris diversionary tactic. From the same playbook as the deliberately messy hair and the nonsenscial waffle he's always spouting. All of them frustratingly/depressingly effective despite being patently obvious tricks to those of us who can see them for what they are.

Then again, any apology he offered would be a hollow, meaningless soundbite, given he and his ilk are fundementally unscrupulous. There are undoubtedly several other scandals just waiting to be exposed.
 

brad465

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Note the deliberate in-front-of-the-press photos of him not wearing a mask in a hospital when everyone else around him is. Blatant attempt to distract from his failure to attend parliament or offer an apology with a bit of not playing to expectations - he wants people to be talking about the lack of mask, not the running away and hiding.

(In other, less publicised images, he was wearing a mask while meeting and talking to staff, it's only in the main released ones where he goes alone without one).
It might be a distraction tactic, he's certainly experienced in deploying them, but at the same time, apart from the Mirror (which Tories hardly touch) and the Metro to a lesser extent, the front pages above don't seem interested in his no mask hospital visit. The pro-Tory papers certainly are not giving much attention to that but are headlining with sleaze stories that are unfavourable to him and the Government.

Completely off topic, but what is it about Times readers which mean they get an extra hour before bedtime compared to Guardian readers?
Good spot ;)
 

daodao

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This is not a party political matter.

For example, the LD leader Ed Davey undertakes outside work as a consultant that is a ‘conflict of interest’ - should he be forced to resign?

What about all the "friends of foreign countries" parliamentary groups whose MP members lobby on behalf of these foreign states?

Owen Paterson was lobbying openly on behalf of a reputable diagnostics company (Randox) - why has he been pilloried when others haven't?

The "holier than thou" attitude of the Chairman of the Parliamentary Standards Committee, the ex-priest Chris Bryant, doesn't exactly fit with his previous behaviour in the parliamentary expenses scandal in 2009 - he overclaimed £92,000 in expenses over the five years leading up to the date when the scandal was exposed, according to Wikipedia. People in glass houses.....
 
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If the Conservatives win the next election then in all honesty the fault lies with the Opposition parties and especially Labour. This Govt is probably the worse in my living memory (I just about remember Heath) and a decent, Centre Left, traditional Labour party should be wiping the floor with them. They're not, despite so many open goals. Unfortunately Labour are being hamstrung by the Hard Left Corbynites, the metropolitan Islingtonistas and the most dreadful assembly of shadow ministers in history. It's not good enough to appeal to your base support, they'll vote for you whatever, you have to attract the centre ground floating voter. This is what Blair was good at and what Boris is doing now, hence the Red Wall collapse.

So what can Labour do? No point whining about FPTP, Labour won elections under that. TBH I think Labour cannot win on merit until they can retake Scotland and form a solid base there and there is no sign of that happening any time soon. All Labour can do is march rightwards into the Centre, put in place a viable group of shadow ministers based on talent, skills and experience, develop policies that sit well with the Red Wall type of people and hope the Conservatives damage themselves enough that people just cannot vote for them, as happened in 1997.
If they can't sort themselves out then we are stuck with Boris.
 

nlogax

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We Gruniad readers need more sleep as all the worrying we do wears us out.

I try not to read it as often as I used to, there is so much doom and gloom going on there it's bad for readers' health.

This is not a party political matter.

Whataboutery aside and whether you like it or not this starts to become a party political issue when 90 percent of those MPs with paid consultancy positions come from one particular party. That same party only then trying to change & water down the enforcement of financial interest rules where those rules are seen to have been breached.

Patterson lobbied on behalf of two companies that paid him and completely failed to register his personal interests in those companies while doing so. He instead opted to hide those financial goings-on behind a thinktank that he personally set up and fronted.

If the Conservatives win the next election then in all honesty the fault lies with the Opposition parties and especially Labour.

Labour should absolutely take their portion of blame, they've been a ****show this last five years and Starmer has been pretty slow in steadying the ship. Though I would suggest his speech during yesterday's parliamentary standards debate could mark a turning point in his and Labour's fortunes. It was a well thought-out piece of oratory and a reminder why having an ex-lawyer leading the party can be beneficial.
 
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Typhoon

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This is not a party political matter.

For example, the LD leader Ed Davey undertakes outside work as a consultant that is a ‘conflict of interest’ - should he be forced to resign?

What about all the "friends of foreign countries" parliamentary groups whose MP members lobby on behalf of these foreign states?

Owen Paterson was lobbying openly on behalf of a reputable diagnostics company (Randox) - why has he been pilloried when others haven't?

The "holier than thou" attitude of the Chairman of the Parliamentary Standards Committee, the ex-priest Chris Bryant, doesn't exactly fit with his previously less-than-strait behaviour in the parliamentary expenses scandal in 2009 - he overclaimed £92,000 in expenses over the five years leading up to the date when the scandal was exposed, according to Wikipedia. People in glass houses.....
"This is not a party political matter". Absolutely. (I don't think anyone ever said it was - look at the flack that has been directed at Vaz in posts above.)

If Paterson had accepted the 60 day suspension, it would have all been over next month; he's a backbencher, he might miss the odd committee meeting but otherwise nothing of note, his vote isn't crucial, he can continue constituency business as normal. He had to adopt the Jonathan Aitken 'trusty shield of British fair-play' defence.
Questions also persist regarding Randox’s ability to land Covid-19 contracts worth around half a billion pounds, many awarded without tender, over the past year and a half.

Last week Mr Paterson resigned over findings that he breached lobbying rules in his work for both Randox – for which he was paid £100,000 a year – and Lynn’s Country Foods between November 2016 and February 2020.

The Sunday Times has highlighted a phone call that took place on 9 April last year between Mr Paterson and the conservative peer Lord Bethell, who was at the time the minister responsible for testing contracts. The phone conversation took place a week and a half after Randox was awarded a £133m contract to supply and analyse test kits.

The Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) has refused to release minutes of the call, the publication said
.
This has not helped. The natural response is 'why?' Especially as:
Diagnostics company Randox, which paid Owen Paterson for lobbying work, won a coronavirus testing contract worth £133m just days before government officials confirmed it did not have enough equipment, according to documents.

He makes claims that he wasn't allowed to speak in his own defence which is blatant rubbish as there are documents to the contrary in the House of Commons Library.
Then our Prime Minister has to get on his high horse, defends Paterson at PMQs and puts a three line whip on the Leadsom amendment. I don't play poker but I understood that if you have a weak hand, you threw it in; if you keep calling and raising you stand to lose a lot if your opponent keeps on being dealt aces.

I am reminded that some Conservatives defied the whip and others sat on their hands, unable to support the amendment. It is an issue (primarily) of two men, one who refused to accept the imposition he was given and the other who thought that they could impose their will on their side of the Commons and backed down the minute there was any sign of opposition. A tail of stubbornness. arrogance and spinelessness. I don't know which is worse

No argument about Davey - but forced to resign? No! Maybe forced to choose. But the question of lobbying has only been raised because the DHSC has not released the minutes of the call made by Paterson (my guess is that they don't exist, isn't 'off the record' communication the reason why Bethell resigned?) Bryant was in the days of the MPs expenses scandal (duck houses and the clearing of moats and the like). According to the BBC (BBC NEWS | Wales | Wales politics | Welsh Labour MPs' expense detail: )
Claim: According to the Telegraph, the newly-appointed Foreign Office minister "flipped" his second home twice in two years, claiming £20,000 for renovation and fees. He claimed more than £92,000 of expenses between three properties in Wales and London in the past five years, the paper said.

Response: Chris Bryant called the reports "unfounded and inaccurate". He said he was forced to move house in his constituency because of a series of attacks on his former home.
My personal view is that selling and buying a new home in Wales is justified in this case but the amount claimed was not. I would imagine that most Welsh MPs have a second home, because of the distance travelled. He wouldn't get away with 92k now (although at least one Mp has three homes).

Quotes from: Owen Paterson row: Randox won £133m Covid testing contract despite lacking equipment (msn.com)
I would have preferred the Sunday Times original but much is behind a paywall.
 

nlogax

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A tail of stubbornness. arrogance and spinelessness. I don't know which is worse

Hard to choose between those. What is particularly galling is the increasing regularity with which the sitting government chooses to parade these behaviours, and the increasing public tolerance of them.
 

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I try not to read it as often as I used to, there is so much doom and gloom going on there it's bad for readers' health.



Whataboutery aside and whether you like it or not this starts to become a party political issue when 90 percent of those MPs with paid consultancy positions come from one particular party. That same party only then trying to change & water down the enforcement of financial interest rules where those rules are seen to have been breached.

I did quite like the idea that someone on (I think) Have I Got For You put forward the other day that any politician receiving money from outside sources should have the company name emblazoned on their clothes in the same manner that a football team have.
Made me laugh at first but then after thinking about it for a second…
 

brad465

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If the Conservatives win the next election then in all honesty the fault lies with the Opposition parties and especially Labour. This Govt is probably the worse in my living memory (I just about remember Heath) and a decent, Centre Left, traditional Labour party should be wiping the floor with them. They're not, despite so many open goals. Unfortunately Labour are being hamstrung by the Hard Left Corbynites, the metropolitan Islingtonistas and the most dreadful assembly of shadow ministers in history. It's not good enough to appeal to your base support, they'll vote for you whatever, you have to attract the centre ground floating voter. This is what Blair was good at and what Boris is doing now, hence the Red Wall collapse.

So what can Labour do? No point whining about FPTP, Labour won elections under that. TBH I think Labour cannot win on merit until they can retake Scotland and form a solid base there and there is no sign of that happening any time soon. All Labour can do is march rightwards into the Centre, put in place a viable group of shadow ministers based on talent, skills and experience, develop policies that sit well with the Red Wall type of people and hope the Conservatives damage themselves enough that people just cannot vote for them, as happened in 1997.
If they can't sort themselves out then we are stuck with Boris.
There's certainly more Labour can do, and actually they have been standing out well in this latest row. However there are also things out of their control to an extent: the current Government are very good at controlling the narrative, with gaslighting and cooking up/picking fights with others to distract from failings, hence the rows over the NI protocol that we signed up to, fights with French fishing vessels, migrant boats and general culture wars. There's also covid creating a "rally around the leader effect", especially prevalent in the vaccine rollout. Scotland seems unlikely to be won again while the SNP deploy similar tactics to the Tories on controlling the narrative and divisive tactics, this time around Scottish Independence. I think Labour can counter some of this though, and Starmer has recently expressed belief the NI protocol row is Johnson picking fights to stop us looking elsewhere.

Recent opinion polls have seen Ipsos Mori give Labour a 1% lead, with other polls giving the Tories a 1% lead, so things are not as rosy for the latter as they were before Owen Paterson stuff blew up. As we enter winter we know a cost of living crisis is likely, and Labour have already been positioning themselves in ways to mitigate it (fully reverse UC cut and remove VAT on energy bills for example). I think Labour were originally hoping the "don't interrupt an enemy when they're making a mistake" principle would help them, but this doesn't work when the majority of the press backs the "enemy". When Johnson does eventually leave, I expect Labour's fortunes will improve considerably, because Johnson is an excellent hypnotist, which helped him win the "Red wall" with his very enthusiastic and eye-catching personality, which no-one else in the Tory party right now has. However, this is no good if Johnson fights the next election.

I don't think Labour will be "whining about FPTP", because while I think they should back PR, if they announce PR plans too soon, the press and Government will have plenty of time to mount an offensive to counter it. I also don't expect a full "progressive alliance" to emerge, that is, standing down candidates, instead I expect a de facto alliance to form, where in key seats candidates with no realistic chance of winning don't campaign, something that helped the Lib Dems in 1997 and in Chesham and Amersham earlier this year.
 

SteveM70

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Boris, like all populists, cannot cope with being associated with any sort of bad news story. Running away from parliament yesterday is typical of him.

What about all the "friends of foreign countries" parliamentary groups whose MP members lobby on behalf of these foreign states?

Oh yes. And their free holidays fact finding missions
 
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