How the term "rail replacement bus" is viewed.

[lookapigeon]

What are you supposed to do in this situation? There must be a procedure in place for those not on paper/mobile tickets

Unethical but not tap in is probably what most people have done. As I was going to Waterloo it shall be interesting to see how the TFL backend copes with my journey of tapping in at Surbiton, and then another entry tap at Clapham Junction and then an exit at Waterloo.

On the way back, once I had exited from Clapham Junction station I just got on board a replacement bus - there was no mechanism for me (or anyone else) to register their journeys onwards from Clapham Junction on a contactless/Oyster.

 

[BenS]

I would add "and decrease your comfort" to the above. The number of vehicles which are either toiletless or the loo is locked out of service.....

Some of my recent experiences has been on the transpennine route where ongoing Transpennine Route Upgrade has meant sections of the train line were replaced with different coaches.

On one occasion this meant a coach with no working toilets - which is not ideal when traveling with children, but fortunately didn't cause any actual problems.

Another issue is if you have chosen train travel due to train being less likely to cause travel sickness - although again the coach was okay from this point of view.

 

[43096]

Not really. I've seen plenty of other countries with plenty of rail replacement buses.

The dreaded "autobusi".

Let's be honest, rail replacement bus is just a terrible way of travelling. I start from the basis that buses are the lowest form of mechanical life...

 

[JD2168]

The problem with some Rail Replacement Buses is like this morning between Sheffield & Chesterfield 16 seat minibuses we’re being used which is not adequate for the job & risk’s passengers who have booked seats on a specific service not being able to use it. If coaches are used the elderly passengers struggle with the stairs.

It is also part of the problem that at times you don’t know if they will turn up.

 

[RJ]

The dreaded "autobusi".

Let's be honest, rail replacement bus is just a terrible way of travelling. I start from the basis that buses are the lowest form of mechanical life...

I’ve happened across them without intending to and been quite impressed! I was in Budapest a couple of years back and had to use the M3 replacement service. There were rigid and articulated Mercedes Citaros running at a frequency of every 1-2 minutes. They were packed but they shifted people extremely efficiently! As a bus service planner at the time I couldn’t help but wonder what other services BKK had to cut to get all that resource on that route.

Then I was interrailing from Copenhagen to Stockholm. We had to change at Malmo and it turned out it was a replacement bus service to Lund I think it was. Again, a very large quantity of vehicles waiting, this time from a load of different operators but they were being dispatched very frequently.

 

[Rescars]

Interesting to read everyone's responses. What a variety of experiences! RRBs seem to be a bit of a Marmite issue.

 

[NorthOxonian]

The main problem I have with Rail Replacement Buses is the fact they inevitably add changes to the journey. For instance, I recall once travelling from London to Hastings with a bus between Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells - the bus itself was pleasant enough both ways, and the run along quite a good road wasn't much slower than the train would have been, but simply the hassle of changing twice probably added about 15-20 minutes to the journey. In longer journeys or ones where the interchanges are less organised, you can probably double that. For leisure trips where much of the pleasure comes from the journey itself, this isn't so bad (I broke my journey in Tonbridge to have dinner so would have lost time there anyway), but for more time-critical journeys I would certainly want to avoid the buses at all costs.

I do like seeing more of the scenery that you sometimes miss while rushing through on a train, but frankly if I want to potter about with a slower scenic route I'd rather just take a service bus! And sometimes stations can be very poorly placed for the road network - for instance I recently had to endure a RRB from Leeds to York and the diversions along country lanes to serve Micklefield and Church Fenton were particularly tedious...

 

[Wolfie]

The main problem I have with Rail Replacement Buses is the fact they inevitably add changes to the journey. For instance, I recall once travelling from London to Hastings with a bus between Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells - the bus itself was pleasant enough both ways, and the run along quite a good road wasn't much slower than the train would have been, but simply the hassle of changing twice probably added about 15-20 minutes to the journey. In longer journeys or ones where the interchanges are less organised, you can probably double that. For leisure trips where much of the pleasure comes from the journey itself, this isn't so bad (I broke my journey in Tonbridge to have dinner so would have lost time there anyway), but for more time-critical journeys I would certainly want to avoid the buses at all costs.

I do like seeing more of the scenery that you sometimes miss while rushing through on a train, but frankly if I want to potter about with a slower scenic route I'd rather just take a service bus! And sometimes stations can be very poorly placed for the road network - for instance I recently had to endure a RRB from Leeds to York and the diversions along country lanes to serve Micklefield and Church Fenton were particularly tedious...

Re your last para the all stations stopping RRB for the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line is absolutely awful for that. They have been using decent full-sized coaches but getting those into some locations....

One thing that TfL does well with its RRBs is using sensibly located extant bus stops rather than even trying that malarkey.

 

[yorksrob]

On acouple of occasions I've been waiting for an RRB for the last train back and its not turned up.

The main problem I have with Rail Replacement Buses is the fact they inevitably add changes to the journey. For instance, I recall once travelling from London to Hastings with a bus between Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells - the bus itself was pleasant enough both ways, and the run along quite a good road wasn't much slower than the train would have been, but simply the hassle of changing twice probably added about 15-20 minutes to the journey. In longer journeys or ones where the interchanges are less organised, you can probably double that. For leisure trips where much of the pleasure comes from the journey itself, this isn't so bad (I broke my journey in Tonbridge to have dinner so would have lost time there anyway), but for more time-critical journeys I would certainly want to avoid the buses at all costs.

I do like seeing more of the scenery that you sometimes miss while rushing through on a train, but frankly if I want to potter about with a slower scenic route I'd rather just take a service bus! And sometimes stations can be very poorly placed for the road network - for instance I recently had to endure a RRB from Leeds to York and the diversions along country lanes to serve Micklefield and Church Fenton were particularly tedious...

Was the Vic - Hastings via Haywards Heath not running that day ?

 

[Peter0124]

Some RRBs are quite luxurious for the routes they serve. The Argyle Line RRBs were coaches and I'm pretty sure one of them had tables.

 

[nr758123]

To be honest I view the term “rail replacement bus” as meaning “find another way to travel, or simply don’t bother”!

In my experience (most recently the Stalybridge blockade this time last year), rail replacement buses only work if most of the passengers make alternative arrangements. The capacity of the rail replacement bus provision was typically less than 10% of the train capacity it replaced.

For most passengers, the experience will be:

• A lower standard of vehicle than the train they were expecting.
• Significantly extended journey times.
• Hassle around having to change modes, especially when travelling with luggage (which there may not be space for on the bus), often with poor information, long queues and a poor waiting environment - the Brighton Line seems to have taken this to the next level.
• Paying more for the journey than normal (because there will be no advance purchase fares available if there's a gap in the train service) for a worse service.

Add to this the inability to track replacement buses, which might be running early or late or not at all, and the need to correct the driver (who doesn't know the area) when they head off in completely the wrong direction.

 

[Mikey C]

I very much doubt that is the case. France in particular has a number of rural lines where the RRB has become virtually permanent.

RRB on quiet rural lines are far less of a drag than RRB on packed mainline services, where large numbers of people have to get off their train and try and board replacement vehicles, often joining crowded roads in the process.

 

[A0wen]

RRB on quiet rural lines are far less of a drag than RRB on packed mainline services, where large numbers of people have to get off their train and try and board replacement vehicles, often joining crowded roads in the process.

So what do the Europeans do when a mainline is closed for essential engineering ? Put passengers on buses or coaches. Let's not pretend this is a uniquely British problem.

 

[philosopher]

I do like seeing more of the scenery that you sometimes miss while rushing through on a train, but frankly if I want to potter about with a slower scenic route I'd rather just take a service bus! And sometimes stations can be very poorly placed for the road network - for instance I recently had to endure a RRB from Leeds to York and the diversions along country lanes to serve Micklefield and Church Fenton were particularly tedious...

I was on a rail replacement bus from Dover to Deal a few years ago in which a double decker urban bus was used and I definitely recall the bus struggled to access some of the railway stations due to the narrow lanes.

Rural stations in many cases would be better served by mini buses which are more suited to many country lanes.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Out of interest, would anyone know if it's cheaper/easier to agree ticket acceptance with local bus operators than to organise rail replacement?

On Sunday (3rd) buses replaced trains between Brighton and Littlehampton, which is served rather well by bus services/connections, but there was an awfully large compliment of replacement buses drawn in (and an odd break of journey at Worthing for most services) that seemed a bit 'over the top'.

 

[miklcct]

My experience on rail replacement buses for me included:
- Bus failed to turn up at Bournemouth (accidentally skipped the station, i.e. failure to call), resulting in a huge Delay Repay compensation (60+ minutes) due to the cascading effect of missing the only direct train of the day from Southampton Airport to Farnborough on a Sunday
- Unclear information of where the bus will call - I waited at the bus stop named "Cricklewood Railway Station" for an all-stations RRB to West Hampstead Thameslink but no bus turned up, and ended up running to West Hampstead Thameslink railway station where I was supposed to change from the RRB to train - Months later there was a poster up telling that the RRB would call at Cricklewood Broadway some distance away from the station
- Long distance between the RRB stop and the train station - the "Gospel Oak" stop for North London Line replacement buses calls at Mansfield Road, located half way between Hampstead Heath and Gospel Oak. I have then avoided using it anymore and take the normal bus C11 instead which calls right at the station.
- Unclear signage for RRB - the Cambrian line was closed and bustituted from Machynlleth, and everyone was directed to a coach. The coach sped through the stop I wanted (Penhelyg) and I asked the driver what happened. He responded me that I was supposed to get on a minibus for intermediate stops and the driver dropped me off at Aberdyfi.
- And the worst - a local RRB, calling all stations from Haslemere to Petersfield ran out of fuel midway and made a long diversion on the A3 to refuel, which resulted me missing a train connection, and the next train was hit by a fresh signal failure! and it resulted me again a large Delay Repay compensation.

The express, non-stop RRB between two railway stations are generally good, but local RRBs are full of horror stories like all the above.

 

[RJ]

Out of interest, would anyone know if it's cheaper/easier to agree ticket acceptance with local bus operators than to organise rail replacement?

On Sunday (3rd) buses replaced trains between Brighton and Littlehampton, which is served rather well by bus services/connections, but there was an awfully large compliment of replacement buses drawn in (and an odd break of journey at Worthing for most services) that seemed a bit 'over the top'.

I think that arrangement works well if there is a lot of spare capacity on the service buses. If the local operator would have to lay on extras, that pushes the price up quite a lot. I imagine with the volume of passengers on the coastway, extras have to be laid on so might as well make it a tailored service with appropriate calling patterns.

 

[Wolfie]

Out of interest, would anyone know if it's cheaper/easier to agree ticket acceptance with local bus operators than to organise rail replacement?

On Sunday (3rd) buses replaced trains between Brighton and Littlehampton, which is served rather well by bus services/connections, but there was an awfully large compliment of replacement buses drawn in (and an odd break of journey at Worthing for most services) that seemed a bit 'over the top'.

Re your first para there has to be a suitable service bus operating at decent frequency for that to even be an option.

For example there is a service bus operates from Telford bus station to Wolverhampton Mon-Sat (but less than hourly and with a relatively narrow time window - roughly 0600 to 1800 - Mon-Fri, less on Saturday and no service at all on Sunday. How would that be an adequate replacement for Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton trains?

 

[Ken H]

Back to the thread title, there was a cartoon doing the rounds before Christmas of a kid opening his new trainset and finding the box contained a model bus with a 'Rail Replacement Bus' label. Sort of sums up how the general public think of RRBs

 

[Rescars]

Back to the thread title, there was a cartoon doing the rounds before Christmas of a kid opening his new trainset and finding the box contained a model bus with a 'Rail Replacement Bus' label. Sort of sums up how the general public think of RRBs

A picture tells a thousand words!

 

[RJ]

My experience on rail replacement buses for me included:
- Bus failed to turn up at Bournemouth (accidentally skipped the station, i.e. failure to call), resulting in a huge Delay Repay compensation (60+ minutes) due to the cascading effect of missing the only direct train of the day from Southampton Airport to Farnborough on a Sunday
- Unclear information of where the bus will call - I waited at the bus stop named "Cricklewood Railway Station" for an all-stations RRB to West Hampstead Thameslink but no bus turned up, and ended up running to West Hampstead Thameslink railway station where I was supposed to change from the RRB to train - Months later there was a poster up telling that the RRB would call at Cricklewood Broadway some distance away from the station
- Long distance between the RRB stop and the train station - the "Gospel Oak" stop for North London Line replacement buses calls at Mansfield Road, located half way between Hampstead Heath and Gospel Oak. I have then avoided using it anymore and take the normal bus C11 instead which calls right at the station.
- Unclear signage for RRB - the Cambrian line was closed and bustituted from Machynlleth, and everyone was directed to a coach. The coach sped through the stop I wanted (Penhelyg) and I asked the driver what happened. He responded me that I was supposed to get on a minibus for intermediate stops and the driver dropped me off at Aberdyfi.
- And the worst - a local RRB, calling all stations from Haslemere to Petersfield ran out of fuel midway and made a long diversion on the A3 to refuel, which resulted me missing a train connection, and the next train was hit by a fresh signal failure! and it resulted me again a large Delay Repay compensation.

The express, non-stop RRB between two railway stations are generally good, but local RRBs are full of horror stories like all the above.

The stops for Cricklewood have never been outside the station. For years they were on Lichfield Road then this was changed to Cricklewood Broadway a couple of years ago.

Gospel Oak has always been like that, they don’t stop anywhere the station in order to make the route safe for double deckers. I used to drive the Stratford to Richmond service.

I’ve been a regular driver on both services but these are two of the most difficult routes in London for drivers unfamiliar with the area so you just have to hope the bus shows and hasn’t inadvertently missed your stop.

 

[duncombec]

I'd contend that one of the reasons why Rail Replacement is considered such an issue is because they tend to happen at the weekends, when more "non-regular" rail users come out to play: it's not day in, day out commuters, but leisure travellers who 'expect' the train to run to the timetable.

Photographing rail replacement recently (buses being my thing), I heard a small group of 20-somethings approach the station, set eyes on the brand spanking new, only delivered two weeks earlier, -73- plate shiny double decker, and exclaim "ohhhhh maaaaaate, we've got to get the f*****g bus". Never mind that the bus was circa two decades younger than the train, isn't fitted with a ticket machine and so new it had barely been near a school working, it was still deemed an issue because it was a bus.

Another recent experience as a traveller: a rail replacement was working on a Y-basis, with one terminus at the eastern end (Rainham, Sittingbourne or Faversham... can't remember the length of the closure) and two at the western end (Strood and Meopham). The journey time from Meopham to wherever allowed for the trains to run to more or less regular times, but Strood is much shorter. Cue arriving 18 minutes before your train, or having to wait 26 (or something like that - more than 20) minutes for the bus. Who thought it was a sensible idea to have a bus leave 4 minutes before a train is due, then have arriving passengers wait 26 minutes, to connect at one end?!?!

It's a combined issue of what the passenger expects (to be able to turn up and get the train at N-o'clock because that's when it ran six weeks ago when they last caught it, so they didn't check anything before hand), to what the bus company can or is prepared to provide (let's be honest... we've all shared journeys with adults whose behaviour rivals that of alleged 'feral schoolkids' - I've shared many a train with sloshed adults returning from a hooray-henry summer jaunt to Whitstable... why would you provide your swankiest coach?) to what the train company can provide (different at staffed and unstaffed stations... why do some unstaffed stations seem devoid of any information where rail replacements stop, or a tiny poster on the platform? Even if they stay up all the time, unstaffed stations should have clear, high-contrast (black text on penalty-fare yellow background) information for all to see - "Replacement Bus stops on Main Street, 200m walk", or "Replacement Bus Stops on Station Forecourt. Some Buses Limited Stop: Please Check Destination with Driver.".

Dispatch staff: I recall in days gone by at my local station (staffed) the platform dispatch staff used to oversee departure times outside, whilst ticket office/gateline staff did their usual roles. That seems to have drifted, relying entirely on staff from the contractor (in this case, Go Ahead) at termini. Where there are 'extra' staff available, why aren't they being used to help passengers on replacement buses?

Tracking is a harder one... with no ticket machine required on the bus, and no physical tracking of the train, it would no doubt be prohibitively expensive to set up. Short of giving the bus/coach a GPS token connected to rail systems, not sure how you could solve that one! There has usually been less of a problem with knowing the way when dealing with local drivers than those from further afield. Again, from personal experience last year, my outward journey was fine, the driver was careful, prompt and actually delivered us early. The return journey, with a different driver from the same company was erratic, uncomfortable, unsure of where to stop and clearly lost. At one point he drove down a road clearly signposted "No Access to A299" whilst looking for the A299. It wouldn't have been so bad had we not stopped a few feet before the roundabout (for the third time in five minutes) for him to presumably read his map. I wasn't local enough to offer help safely - as well as not wanting to attempt to go downstairs as we lurched around like being in a Formula Bus grand prix, but even I can tell the difference between a sign saying "A299" and a sign saying "No Access to A299" and guessing which exit might be the one I wanted!

Of course, there is also a certain requirement on the passenger to check their journey before they travel, and not rely on last week/month/year. If there is a bus, why would you just assume it stops at a certain stop? We have fast and slow trains - why would you assume it's going to stop at every stop. If in doubt... ask!

 

[lookapigeon]

Photographing rail replacement recently (buses being my thing), I heard a small group of 20-somethings approach the station, set eyes on the brand spanking new, only delivered two weeks earlier, -73- plate shiny double decker, and exclaim "ohhhhh maaaaaate, we've got to get the f*****g bus". Never mind that the bus was circa two decades younger than the train, isn't fitted with a ticket machine and so new it had barely been near a school working, it was still deemed an issue because it was a bus.

Perhaps this is for another thread, but I wonder where the negative perception of the bus comes from especially in the UK? Where you saw the bunch of 20-somethings, was it in in London where the bus services are under the auspices of TFL and are cheap/relatively frequent, or was it somewhere it is left to local operators who operate a service every 2 hours, and stop at 17:00 in the evening?
Or is it indirectly through culture - perhaps the scene from the Inbetweeners where he calls people waiting at a bus stop a bunch of w!nkers, or Thatcher implying that people over a certain age riding the bus failed in life.

Back on track, I've been charged an arm and a leg by TFL for incomplete journeys and now have the pleasure of waiting 10 days whilst they sort it out.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Back to the thread title, there was a cartoon doing the rounds before Christmas of a kid opening his new trainset and finding the box contained a model bus with a 'Rail Replacement Bus' label. Sort of sums up how the general public think of RRBs

This reminds me of a picture I saw on the Internet:

I thought it was a real book, but it doesn't exist.

Anyway, on the topic, I like RRBs. I often try to target RRBs as they are cheaper*.

*euphemism

 

[duncombec]

Perhaps this is for another thread, but I wonder where the negative perception of the bus comes from especially in the UK? Where you saw the bunch of 20-somethings, was it in in London where the bus services are under the auspices of TFL and are cheap/relatively frequent, or was it somewhere it is left to local operators who operate a service every 2 hours, and stop at 17:00 in the evening?
Or is it indirectly through culture - perhaps the scene from the Inbetweeners where he calls people waiting at a bus stop a bunch of w!nkers, or Thatcher implying that people over a certain age riding the bus failed in life.

Rainham is a major part of an urban area, total population ca. 275,000, with a bus at least every 15 minutes along the main road a few minutes walk from the station when they have enough drivers and spare parts. The local buses are also blue flecked with dirt, and this was so white if it were sideways I'd have called it a dinnerplate and had lunch from it!

Hence why I'm fairly certain it "it's not a train" was the cause of their problem!

 

[stevieinselby]

Anyway, on the topic, I like RRBs. I often try to target RRBs as they are cheaper*.

*euphemism

Sure, if your entire journey is bustituted, you might get away with that. But when it's just part of the journey – especially if it's in the middle – you'll end up paying more for the privilege of a longer, less reliable and less comfortable journey – because there won't be any advance fares available for a journey that includes a road replacement leg.

 

[yorksrob]

I have one tonight apparently, so we'll see if it turns up.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Sure, if your entire journey is bustituted, you might get away with that. [...]

Yeah, I have to say, I sometimes take RRBs to the extreme, where I plan my journeys around RRBs.

For example, I had a day out in Southampton (from Guildford) for cheap, just by studying the Engineering Works calendar. On a Sunday, there were SWR RRBs from Guildford to Havant, then Southern RRBs from Havant to Southampton. There were also SWR RRBs from Southampton to Bournemouth on the same day, so I could have travelled from Guildford to Bournemouth, but I decided it was too long a journey!

When the New Guildford Line is closed, there are also RRBs from Guildford to Surbiton via Cobham. In the early morning, and late nights, these RRBs are extended to Clapham Junction.

So it's the classic time vs. money scenario. You can do it for cheap... if you have plenty of time.


Anyway, my RRB advice is try to board at the origin or large stations. If your station is unstaffed and in the middle of nowhere (e.g. along the New Guildford Line or North Downs Line), good luck. I've seen drivers depart early, stop at the wrong bus stop, or skip the stop completely because they got lost or forgot!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I don't have too much of a problem with a rail replacement in itself, I already expect the journey to double in length, my problem is with the standing there for an hour and a half and nothing showing up (and now that's even worse of a problem with the rail replacement supply [more like money] shortage).

In the past a rail replacement got me to my destination 8 minutes early, despite boarding the RRB 44 minutes late, although I probably would've still preferred the train journey.

 

[yorksrob]

I have one tonight apparently, so we'll see if it turns up.

It did - which was nice.

What helped matters was that I caught it from a staffed station with someone there to point me to it. I'd be a lot more wary of catching one from a country wayside station.