How to mitigate the effects of stranded trains in future incidents

[Deepgreen]

Moderator note: Split from

GWML / Elizabeth line disruption due to OLE down near Paddington

Sat just west of Paddington right now with no overhead power according to the driver!

www.railforums.co.uk

With the number of overhead line equipment (OHLE) failures on the Great Western Main Line (GWML), perhaps the case for a 'Thunderbird' stationed there is growing?

While 800s can use their diesel, 387s and 345s could be rescued at least.

 

[jayah]

Plans should be in place so passengers are off before the emergency batteries die, surely.

There doesn't seem to be a plan, or at least one that would work in a perfectly foreseeable real life scenario like this.

The trains have batteries. Why don't they look at rigging them up as a last mile power source? If they aren't big enough, make them bigger. Keeping hotel power going on a train with no toilets for 2-3-4 hours isn't really a solution.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If a train has no power, I’m not sure what you’re expecting the alternative to be? Again heating & lighting are important for safety. It’s selecting the best of a terrible range of options.

I think you keep missing the point.

If I can purchase a power bank that will keep my phone charged for days for £40, why can’t manufacturers ensure there is sufficient resilience for 4 hours+ of everything?

Lighting could easily be replaced with the same emergency lighting aircraft have. Key thing is to keep people informed = keep people safe.

 

[Horizon22]

I think you keep missing the point.

If I can purchase a power bank that will keep my phone charged for days for £40, why can’t manufacturers ensure there is sufficient resilience for 4 hours+ of everything?

Lighting could easily be replaced with the same emergency lighting aircraft have. Key thing is to keep people informed = keep people safe.

I’m no fleet engineer but a power bank for your phone is obviously a totally different scale to a modern 9-car train, which are heavily reliant on computer systems with a huge range of different elements.

I imagine the answer is something to do with cost, space and practicality. I’m just explaining what the current situation is which has some part in explaining why events would unfold the way they did.

 

[800301]

I think you keep missing the point.

If I can purchase a power bank that will keep my phone charged for days for £40, why can’t manufacturers ensure there is sufficient resilience for 4 hours+ of everything?

Lighting could easily be replaced with the same emergency lighting aircraft have. Key thing is to keep people informed = keep people safe.

Unfortunately trains just aren’t designed that way, most of the 387’s I drive, you’d be very lucky to get an hour out of them on batteries, the 800’s you’d get even less time which tbh I do find a bit shocking for quite modern trains, but then they aren’t designed in any way to run on battery power for any length of time, same with DMU’s as soon as that engine is off they go into load shed shutting down systems and will eventually shut down completely. While I’m no expert, nor do I know the full circumstances involving the incident and staff involved, it comes across as really poorly managed, why could passenger not be off trains quicker? once the power was off I think it was pretty clear this isn’t going to be fixed in 5 mins and with the passenger numbers involved, de training passengers should be a priority when evident that nothing is going to move anytime soon

 

[westcoaster]

I think you keep missing the point.

If I can purchase a power bank that will keep my phone charged for days for £40, why can’t manufacturers ensure there is sufficient resilience for 4 hours+ of everything?

Lighting could easily be replaced with the same emergency lighting aircraft have. Key thing is to keep people informed = keep people safe.

It all depends on each traction type.

On the trains I drive even during and after load shedding the GSMR and PA system is functional.

Once the unit shuts it self down after say 90 minutes. The GSMR will switch off, but can still be used by pressing a certain button (they have a separate internal battery), and the PA is still functional.

But shut the unit down manually and the above will not work.

 

[ijmad]

I think you keep missing the point.

If I can purchase a power bank that will keep my phone charged for days for £40, why can’t manufacturers ensure there is sufficient resilience for 4 hours+ of everything?

Lighting could easily be replaced with the same emergency lighting aircraft have. Key thing is to keep people informed = keep people safe.

A 20,000 mAh power bank could power the 10kW needed to heat a train carriage for approx 2-3 minutes

 

[jfowkes]

It seems like a big problem was crew availability, both due to strike and the potential to go outside working hours.

I suggest that good mitigations for stranded trains are

1. Resolving the current labour disputes, so that staff are safe, rested and happy
2. Allowing some kind of emergency overtime working (with appropriate protections and compensation for affected staff) during major disruption. If there is a risk that passengers will detrain themselves, I'd say the potential harms of that are greater than a driver working over their allowed hours.

 

[zwk500]

The trains have batteries. Why don't they look at rigging them up as a last mile power source? If they aren't big enough, make them bigger. Keeping hotel power going on a train with no toilets for 2-3-4 hours isn't really a solution.

Although converting the 'hotel' batteries to traction power is probably not going to happen, fitting a suitable battery onto the trains is very plausible. It doesn't need to have much capacity if it's just a 'donkey' supply to get into the nearest platform, and in this incident such a supply capable of even 5-10 miles at low speed would have been sufficient to get trains platformed, which would then remove the risk of passengers evacuating onto the tracks. By removing the risk of public being on the tracks, you make it much easier to focus staff on the actual recovery job rather than worrying about people potentially being in a dangerous or vulnerable position near the line.

 

[jon0844]

The problem with power to trains is part of a whole bigger picture that means a lot of people are not used to, or able to cope, with something happening that cuts them off from getting information. Even though you might be on a mainline and seeing people out and about, and anyone in the know would know you haven't been forgotten about, if people can't be reassured or even just told 'hold tight; they're working on a plan to rescue us' then, yes, they're going to make their own decisions - many of which are going to be unsafe and ill-advised.

Sure, most people on the trains probably had mobiles and assuming the train wasn't in a cutting or tunnel then probably able to make calls, use the phone torch, access data and ask for info on X or another service etc.

But once the power is off and the lights are off, people are going to be well outside their comfort zone and it isn't just the railway that seems unable to use modern technology to mitigate. For one, emergency lighting on a train shouldn't consume much power. If you look at the surge in home battery solutions (and I don't mean giant home batteries to power a whole home) but the types of portable units from Anker and the like you can use at home, on site, camping etc - reasonably heavy, but still movable, and able to provide 500, 800, 1kWh of power. If a train had a battery of that size, it could keep the PA system, GSM-R and VERY basic lighting going for hours and hours.
What if Network Rail or BTP could take one of these to a stranded train and re-enable the lighting, PA and radio? In real terms, they're cheap (starting at around £300-400) and portable.

As a bit of a coincidence, Ofcom is now investigating the situation for mobile networks, which can also have sites with only enough backup power for 30 minutes or so (and some sites have NO backup). So if you have a power outage in bad weather (or whatever), and now have your phone provided over fibre, then losing your mobile service means NO way to call anyone because your landline won't work as it once used to.

No way to check with the grid on the status of the power outage, no way to tell anyone you're okay, and no way to call 999 if you've been injured or need medical help etc.

Without knowing why the power is down, and depending on where you live, it could feel very 'end of world' as you don't know if it's going to be fixed in a few hours, or days. Assume you're old, unable to easily get around...

Ofcom Consult on UK Telecoms Resilience and Battery Backup for Mobile Masts

Ofcom has today proposed to update their resilience guidance to provide greater clarity on how UK broadband ISPs, mobile operators and other digital network com

www.ispreview.co.uk

Ofcom’s Proposals

We propose to introduce an updated version of our resilience guidance for CPs, which sets out the measures we expect them to take in relation to the resilience of their networks, as part of their security duties under s105A-D of the Communications Act 2003. Measures contained in the proposed guidance are flexible enough to apply to all types of CPs offering communications networks and services in the UK, while also allowing for continued technology evolution.

This includes:

• Ensuring that networks are designed to avoid or reduce single points of failure.

• Ensuring that key infrastructure points have automatic failover functionality built in, so that when equipment fails network traffic is immediately diverted to another device or site that can maintain end user connectivity.

• Setting out the processes, tools, and training that should be considered to support the requirements on resilience.

I don't think people today expect to find themselves in a situation where they can be literally cut off from all means of contact in an instant. It's a bit like the saying that many people are just one paycheck away from losing their home.

Before we took instant communication for granted, people likely had a FM or AM radio in their home and would listen to announcements that way. Now we'll use the Internet, until we can't access it. Clearly people may overreact and panic, and the railway is open to all - so there may be people on a train with anxiety, learning difficulties, conditions that mean needing a toilet more frequently and so on.

We all know what it is like when a train stops in a tunnel for an extended period. It's frustrating to lose signal, and while more tunnels are being enabled for cellular coverage every month - that could stop working and then people will feel like it's the end of the world.

I am not sure how anyone stops people doing the wrong thing, potentially delaying the service recovery even further, but having a train keeping lights on and allowing a driver (or control broadcasting over the air) to use a PA system to reassure people is absolutely vital.

 

[AngusH]

One of the things here is that it is quite routine (often legally required even)
elsewhere to have emergency lighting that is separate from the main lighting system.
Battery powered and triggered by a failure of the main system.


This is what is needed here. At minimum, battery powered independent lights in each carriage section which can illuminate for a minimum of 3 hours after failure of the main system, better 6 or 12 hours.

You can buy off the shelf units promising 3 hours lighting from a built in rechargeable battery for less than 50 pounds.

A system for rail use will obviously cost more because of the additional complexity of course.


Yes there is some maintenance cost and replacing the batteries at intervals, but the alternative seems to be sitting in the dark....


A separate emergency lighting system the benefit of being simple.
No load shedding or priorities, it only does lighting and should hopefully just work.


I wonder if it might also be worth illuminating the outside of the train on the same basis too, to aid in any evacuation.

edit: But if various posts are to be believed such as this:

Class 377/6-7’s | 387’s interior middle lighting never on?

I have a question that’s been bugging me for years now regarding the lighting on Bombardiers last Electrostar trains. The Class 377/6, Class 377/7 and Class 387’s. I have noticed that there are LED lights that run down the middle of each coach similar to that of what you see on an East Midlands...

www.railforums.co.uk

then there is emergency lighting on 387s, which is separate from the main lighting and works as I have hoped.
But if these lights failed, then it can't be separately powered? More explanation of why the lighting failed is needed.

I hold to the view that dedicated and independent emergency lighting batteries would be helpful.

 

[jon0844]

387s do indeed have their own little LED lights for emergencies (presumably because until the refresh, the main lights were not LED).

Not sure what a 700/707/717 does in an emergency as the lights are made up of gazillions of LEDs - but presumably a section of them remain on. They can operate at different brightness levels, so it would make sense to run them very dim because at night your eyes will adjust anyway.

Emergency lights should be easily capable of lasting many, many hours. Many more hours than even the longest rescue.

 

[ShadowKnight]

I find looking at situations like this that the rail industry is overly focused on engineering safety and severely dropped the ball on passenger safety and wellbeing. Being stranded on a train for couple of hours with no communication/or attempts to mitigate them being stranded just stinks of procedures being written up in a boardroom before having a sanity check from someone who can champion the passenger in such a situation. And in the end. If the train won't be moving for a while, detrain the passengers asap so that they are out of the way and any repairs can be done much more effectively in a cleared zone

 

[HSTEd]

Only true way to mitigate against this sort of problem would be for traction batteries or an auxiliary diesel generator to be fitted to all nominally electric only multiple units.

If we had a unified coupler mechnical and electrical standard it would make it a lot easier to rapidly recover trains, but we don't.

Train with power could just shunt through until all trains that needed to be rescued were in a single bloc and haul them all out in one movement.

 

[jfowkes]

In the case where the wires are draped over the train, it's hard to imagine how the process of removing those could be sped up. So even with some sort of onboard backup traction power, there's still the possibility of a lengthy wait.

 

[zwk500]

Only true way to mitigate against this sort of problem would be for traction batteries or an auxiliary diesel generator to be fitted to all nominally electric only multiple units.

Battery yes, but a diesel generator would need fuelling, which means the depot needs a supply and it has to be checked for contamination, etc.

If we had a unified coupler mechnical and electrical standard it would make it a lot easier to rapidly recover trains, but we don't.

Don't trains have emergency air pipes? Couplings should really have been aligned by now but adaptors aren't the end of the world.

Train with power could just shunt through until all trains that needed to be rescued were in a single bloc and haul them all out in one movement.

Up to a point, but one train on a donkey generator is not going to be able to push/haul 4 or 5 dead units on its own very far.

Best solution is each train has a traction battery to get it to the next platform, including trains stepping forward if multiple trains are stuck between stations. Detrain passengers onto platforms, move units into sidings or loops as needed to allow lines to clear for bimode or diesel traction, then when the power is back you can rescue the EMUs running on 'limp to safety' mode.

 

[JohnElliott]

In the case where the wires are draped over the train, it's hard to imagine how the process of removing those could be sped up. So even with some sort of onboard backup traction power, there's still the possibility of a lengthy wait.

It would make it possible to bring another train alongside on its donkey battery to evacuate the passengers, though.

 

[zwk500]

It would make it possible to bring another train alongside on its donkey battery to evacuate the passengers, though.

It would but only after the wires have been removed from the subject train.

 

[SynthD]

How diverse are the causes? Is every case of OHLE down dealt with the same way - take wires off train, move train to nearest platform? If there was a Thunderthing nearby, it would need a long crane arm to remove the wire. It may need to do this from the next track, involving some wrong way running. Only after that, it could link up and provide hotel power to carriages that can accept it.

 

[HSTEd]

Battery yes, but a diesel generator would need fuelling, which means the depot needs a supply and it has to be checked for contamination, etc.

Don't trains have emergency air pipes? Couplings should really have been aligned by now but adaptors aren't the end of the world.

The problem with adaptors is it requires a lot more effort than a normal coupling operation. Especially if you are trying to do it in the middle of nowhere with the regular traincrew because Network Rail staff have not yet arrived.

Up to a point, but one train on a donkey generator is not going to be able to push/haul 4 or 5 dead units on its own very far.

Well a donkey generator of a few hundred horsepower still puts it into the range of a light shunter, if all you want is walking pace I think it would stretch farther than you think. Especially given how efficient modern traction drives are at getting tractive effort from each horsepower. And if there is an electrodiesel or freight train around it probably has thousands of horsepower

 

[Bikeman78]

Although converting the 'hotel' batteries to traction power is probably not going to happen, fitting a suitable battery onto the trains is very plausible. It doesn't need to have much capacity if it's just a 'donkey' supply to get into the nearest platform, and in this incident such a supply capable of even 5-10 miles at low speed would have been sufficient to get trains platformed, which would then remove the risk of passengers evacuating onto the tracks. By removing the risk of public being on the tracks, you make it much easier to focus staff on the actual recovery job rather than worrying about people potentially being in a dangerous or vulnerable position near the line.

Even if the batteries keep the toilets, lights and PA going, the railway will buy itself a lot of extra time. A person urinates six or seven times a day. So, after three hours, approximately 75% of the passengers will be needing to go. That's a lot of people on a crush loaded train.

 

[zwk500]

Even if the batteries keep the toilets, lights and PA going, the railway will buy itself a lot of extra time. A person urinates six or seven times a day. So, after three hours, approximately 75% of the passengers will be needing to go. That's a lot of people on a crush loaded train.

You buy yourself a little bit of time with extra hotel power, but a lot more time by moving the train to a station - even if it's unstaffed and has no facilities, people can then arrange for lifts/taxis if the train company can't organise buses. People can also get out onto the platform to relieve a crush loaded train.

The problem with adaptors is it requires a lot more effort than a normal coupling operation. Especially if you are trying to do it in the middle of nowhere with the regular traincrew because Network Rail staff have not yet arrived.

For sure, a common coupler would be much better.

Well a donkey generator of a few hundred horsepower still puts it into the range of a light shunter, if all you want is walking pace I think it would stretch farther than you think. Especially given how efficient modern traction drives are at getting tractive effort from each horsepower. And if there is an electrodiesel or freight train around it probably has thousands of horsepower

By far the most efficient option is traction batteries on every unit - then the chances of needing to move another train are drastically reduced, and you don't have to worry about the problem of fuelling the diesel gensets. Batteries can also give other operational advantages by providing power in service if needed. Things like departures from busy areas to avoid stressing the power supply with extra draw, or being able to bridge a section that would need to be coasted, etc.

 

[Dougal2345]

Might it be an idea for the "crisis control centre" in these situations to have the ability to make direct PA announcements on the train(s) affected?

It strikes me that much of the problem is that the driver (or guard/OBS if applicable), even if they know some fraction of what's going on, are often less than brilliant at passing it on to the passengers.

If the person at the hub of the crisis were to be keeping passengers updated directly and regularly... "Train stuck outside Paddington, we have our team removing the overhead wire entangling your train at the moment. Train stopped near Acton, a rescue locomotive will be on its way within 30 minutes..." etc., it might make the passengers less restive...

Just an idea anyway!

 

[etr221]

Something I found years ago - different industry, different country, different risks - but still a relevant lesson to be learnt: The Cheapest of Fukushima’s Lessons. And something to be done as a matter of routine - when things are working well, when there are minor issues, when things are totally ****d. The person in the corner of Control, just watching what's happening, and every few minutes saying (however) 'All's well' - until they have to say 'no it isn't - this is what's happened, we're aware - this is what we're doing - this is how long is going to take': and that is their only role... and what happened last week, at the scale it happened, is a rare event, there are many minor, and not so minor, incidents - see this forum, passim. And I would suggest a railway which is admitting the clangers it drops will get kudos from that - and maybe try harder not to make them.

The other thing to do is read back on the great Beast from the East Lewisham stranding - what were the lessons from there, that were the lessons from previous incident, that are going to have to be relearnt...

I think somebody came up with a rule of thumb that passengers WILL start to self evacuate after an hour or so - all the railway can do is keep them happy (which means above all informed) so they will wait longer, while the rescuers are on their way. And remember, by the time control is aware - their clock is ticking - by the time things are being organised - it's ticked more - your hour is rapidly diminishing...

And - as has been pointed out - the reason airliners have so many cabin staff isn't to sell duty frees, it's to manage the passengers when things go pear shaped (and let the flight deck manage the plane). On the railway, DOO is the all the rage - one man, up in their private world - they've got their work cut talking to control, doing anything to fix the train,... - how much can they put in, with how much priority, to manage the passengers - and when the PA goes, what can they do?

So perhaps the minimum is to have batteries to keep (emergency) lighting on, PA working, train to ground comms on, for - I would guess - at least three, preferably more, hours...

 

[Meerkat]

How big/heavy a battery do you need for half an hour emergency lighting and PA?
I’m thinking of one that is safe to manpack from an access point to a train in the dark. Even if you have to keep swapping them over it would keep people on the train for longer if you can get one person to the stranded train but not evacuate. Of course you would need a connection inside in a lockable and accessible spot, which might be difficult.
The next priority would be a loo - even if it was a plastic curtain, fold up seat, and chute onto the track*. It makes a huge difference if people know there is a backup - “we don’t know how long you will be stuck and there are zero toilet facilities“ will have people stressing and detraining based on how long it will take them to get to a loo, not whether they desperately need it right now.
The excuse that it took so long because there were multiple trains and thousands of people to sort out is unacceptable- that isn’t a surprise, the available response/plan should be scaled to the train service.
Do cess routes need upgrading in the busiest areas? Those yellow grippy grills and a string of marker lights would speed up responses, evacuations, and help collect self-detrainers onto safer route.

*would have to be staffed, but let’s not get into DOO v OBS v guard here. Might be an argument that response in busy DOO areas includes someone with no technical skills, just the trackside safety training to get to the train with the MOM and then take over looking after the passengers whilst the driver deals with the problem.

 

[SynthD]

I’m thinking of one that is safe to manpack from an access point to a train in the dark.

If one staff member with a battery is allowed/arranged to approach the train, then ten staff members with disembarking ladders can too.

 

[Tio Terry]

Might it be an idea for the "crisis control centre" in these situations to have the ability to make direct PA announcements on the train(s) affected?

It strikes me that much of the problem is that the driver (or guard/OBS if applicable), even if they know some fraction of what's going on, are often less than brilliant at passing it on to the passengers.

If the person at the hub of the crisis were to be keeping passengers updated directly and regularly... "Train stuck outside Paddington, we have our team removing the overhead wire entangling your train at the moment. Train stopped near Acton, a rescue locomotive will be on its way within 30 minutes..." etc., it might make the passengers less restive...

Just an idea anyway!

If I remember correctly - and it's a very long time since I had anything to do with it - On Train PA announcements can be made via GSMR. So those equipped with the right equipment in signalling centres or the like could make announcements directly to the train, assuming there is still enough power for the GSMR and PA systems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would but only after the wires have been removed from the subject train.

Not if they're turned off.

 

[Kilopylae]

I think somebody came up with a rule of thumb that passengers WILL start to self evacuate after an hour or so - all the railway can do is keep them happy (which means above all informed) so they will wait longer, while the rescuers are on their way.

In this order, access to toilets, access to water, and access to food are also urgent, especially the first of the three.

 

[Tio Terry]

In this order, access to toilets, access to water, and access to food are also urgent, especially the first of the three.

Bit of a problem on a Crossrail train!