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How will the increase in electricity costs be dealt with by TOCs and Network Rail?

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Pretendolino

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This is managed through the EC4T Scheme Council, which I believe now has all the TOCs on it. It's supported by Schneider Electric who help with buying the forecast quantities. As others have stated, the electricity gets bought in advance and effectively the prices get fixed/locked in ahead of time. The TOCs will be a little protected in the short term, but the higher prices will kick in eventually. Or if you're one of those unlucky TOCs that only recently joined the scheme, you've got an eye-watering bill on your hands...

The thing to remember is that it's not just the commodity cost that needs to be considered. Non-commodity costs are a substantial part of the EC4T Tariff levied on operators. From memory, it's over 50% of the tariff.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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The thing to remember is that it's not just the commodity cost that needs to be considered. Non-commodity costs are a substantial part of the EC4T Tariff levied on operators. From memory, it's over 50% of the tariff.
Is that element levied through the variable access charge for use of the electrification system?
 

Pretendolino

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Is that element levied through the variable access charge for use of the electrification system?
That's the Electric Asset Usage Charge. It's relatively small compared to EC4T and is charged on a £/vehicle mile basis depending on DC or AC operation. The rates are on the Network Rail CP6 Access Charges site if you're interested.

The non-commodity EC4T costs are bundled up into the single EC4T tariff. There's separate Distribution and Transmission charges that also apply based on energy usage.
 

SteveL9

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Slightly off topic but obviously the railway has a very large estate, is there a good reason why it hasn't put more of it to use as solar farms? I found a very old article which implies Network Rail were looking at this after a pilot in Hampshire, is there any update?
 
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Slightly off topic but obviously the railway has a very large estate, is there a good reason why it hasn't put more of it to use as solar farms? I found a very old article which implies Network Rail were looking at this after a pilot in Hampshire, is there any update? https://www.theguardian.com/busines...e-is-worlds-first-to-be-powered-by-solar-farm
There are two different things to ask here:
1. Why doesn't the railway install solar PV panels on it's own land or buildings to generate electricity and feed it into the grid?
2. Why aren't we seeing solar PV farms feeding directly into railway electrification?

The main answer to 1. is that we did see this (Blackfriars station roof was a pioneering project) when the financial climate was right (subsidies meant that there was a secure return on the capital invested). When those subsidies went down much faster than the price of the equipment, the economics didn't make sense, so the whole market ground to a halt. The subsidy regime for field-scale solar farms was different and rates changed at different dates, with some schemes able to qualify well before being completed, so it took longer for that sector to stop. Luckily the rest of the world didn't stop buying, so prices have continued to come down. That means that it is now economic to install PV, if a good proportion of the energy is used directly on site (and so doesn't attract charges for use of the energy network). This has lead to projects like GTR's Streatham Hill depot: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/south-london-train-depot-to-be-covered-in-solar-panels-51633/.

The best sites for using energy on site are always likely to be buildings, so I would expect to see these sort of rooftop projects first. But there is a need for certainty about being their for the contractual payback, so it would a very hard sell right now with the GBR legislation not published! Best bet would be one of the long term train maintenance contracts like DLR Poplar Depot rebuild. The railway doesn't tend to have that much land which is flat, seggregated from trains (to make access for maintenance easy) and in sensible shaped parcels (not long thin strips!). Any such land generally got sold off at privatization, or is protected for future railway use, so they won't want to put 25 year lifespan assets on it. All these mean that ground mounted solar farm developers are likely to see the railway as a hard job, and go somewhere else for land first. Network Rail itself has capital borrowing limits, which makes non-core capital projects like this hard to fund.

Your link directly relates to the second question. If you are building a many-fields-scale solar farm, one of your key problems is getting connected to the electricity network without it costing an arm and a leg (if upgrades to the existing network are needed to connect your development, you are likely to be asked to pay!). Electrified railways are interesting because they have their own private electricity network alongside them, one of the very few that exists. In general, railway networks are much more tolerant of the sort of somewhat "dirty" power put out by small scale generators than the public supply - because the railway itself is an incredibly dirty user! This is one reason why getting supplies for railway electrification can be expensive, it has to be done in a way which doesn't make the neighbour's lights flicker! So there is a real opportunity to connect solar farms adjacent to (or on) electric railways directly, in order to get a cheaper connection - this is exactly what the project you linked to the report on set out to show. It no where near met the line's demand, but it didn't have to get a public grid connection in order to export the power it did produce. There are some technical hurdles about power going "the wrong way" even on the railway (despite the use of regenerative braking), which is what the project looked to overcome. I believe it was a success, but the DC rail network (or rather the 11/33kV 3-phase AC backbone behind it) can't absorb huge amounts of power, and largely exists in the crowded south east, where land for panels expensive.

The big win is being able to connect to 25/50kV single phase electrification system. That's rather harder (because it's non-standard for solar farm kit) but not any harder than a Static Frequency Converter - which are now in main line use in the UK. I believe that there was a next phase project to demonstrate this using a 25kV transformer and traction supply, with the panels connected in place of the traction converter side of the DC link. Effectively it would have been a stationary train re-generating into the OHL, but I've not heard anything about this since then. The drive for doing work will have been limited by the economics of solar power generation as described above for grid connected solar, although that should be getting better now.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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There are two different things to ask here:
1. Why doesn't the railway install solar PV panels on it's own land or buildings to generate electricity and feed it into the grid?
2. Why aren't we seeing solar PV farms feeding directly into railway electrification?

The main answer to 1. is that we did see this (Blackfriars station roof was a pioneering project) when the financial climate was right (subsidies meant that there was a secure return on the capital invested). When those subsidies went down much faster than the price of the equipment, the economics didn't make sense, so the whole market ground to a halt. The subsidy regime for field-scale solar farms was different and rates changed at different dates, with some schemes able to qualify well before being completed, so it took longer for that sector to stop. Luckily the rest of the world didn't stop buying, so prices have continued to come down. That means that it is now economic to install PV, if a good proportion of the energy is used directly on site (and so doesn't attract charges for use of the energy network). This has lead to projects like GTR's Streatham Hill depot: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/south-london-train-depot-to-be-covered-in-solar-panels-51633/.

The best sites for using energy on site are always likely to be buildings, so I would expect to see these sort of rooftop projects first. But there is a need for certainty about being their for the contractual payback, so it would a very hard sell right now with the GBR legislation not published! Best bet would be one of the long term train maintenance contracts like DLR Poplar Depot rebuild. The railway doesn't tend to have that much land which is flat, seggregated from trains (to make access for maintenance easy) and in sensible shaped parcels (not long thin strips!). Any such land generally got sold off at privatization, or is protected for future railway use, so they won't want to put 25 year lifespan assets on it. All these mean that ground mounted solar farm developers are likely to see the railway as a hard job, and go somewhere else for land first. Network Rail itself has capital borrowing limits, which makes non-core capital projects like this hard to fund.

Your link directly relates to the second question. If you are building a many-fields-scale solar farm, one of your key problems is getting connected to the electricity network without it costing an arm and a leg (if upgrades to the existing network are needed to connect your development, you are likely to be asked to pay!). Electrified railways are interesting because they have their own private electricity network alongside them, one of the very few that exists. In general, railway networks are much more tolerant of the sort of somewhat "dirty" power put out by small scale generators than the public supply - because the railway itself is an incredibly dirty user! This is one reason why getting supplies for railway electrification can be expensive, it has to be done in a way which doesn't make the neighbour's lights flicker! So there is a real opportunity to connect solar farms adjacent to (or on) electric railways directly, in order to get a cheaper connection - this is exactly what the project you linked to the report on set out to show. It no where near met the line's demand, but it didn't have to get a public grid connection in order to export the power it did produce. There are some technical hurdles about power going "the wrong way" even on the railway (despite the use of regenerative braking), which is what the project looked to overcome. I believe it was a success, but the DC rail network (or rather the 11/33kV 3-phase AC backbone behind it) can't absorb huge amounts of power, and largely exists in the crowded south east, where land for panels expensive.

The big win is being able to connect to 25/50kV single phase electrification system. That's rather harder (because it's non-standard for solar farm kit) but not any harder than a Static Frequency Converter - which are now in main line use in the UK. I believe that there was a next phase project to demonstrate this using a 25kV transformer and traction supply, with the panels connected in place of the traction converter side of the DC link. Effectively it would have been a stationary train re-generating into the OHL, but I've not heard anything about this since then. The drive for doing work will have been limited by the economics of solar power generation as described above for grid connected solar, although that should be getting better now.
A train is a moving load so i don't see direct connection as the best way to achieve high efficiency compared to plugging solar systems into the local distribution network so the power can readily be used. Also solar panels only generate fully when the sun is out or during the day so what do we do at night? The only sensible approach is a high level of embedded generation spread throughout distribution supply companies area.
 

brad465

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View attachment 119975

Wellover half is derived from Gas as per above snap shot.
This is why our electricity is so expensive at moment to respond to thread by JamesT.
Will be even greater when the sun goes down and Solar = 0!
A large proportion of that gas consumption is for export to the continent right now (generation is around 110-125% of domestic demand).

What do all those solar cells + a small wind turbine above by tracksides power (my instinct is signalling/track equipment)?
 

Bald Rick

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What do all those solar cells + a small wind turbine above by tracksides power (my instinct is signalling/track equipment)?

typically they are charging batteries which then supply low power and non critical stuff like remote monitoring kit.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This is how to do it.
Poor quality picture, but it is of the information screen on the concourse area of Porta Susa station in Turin.
This is a large sub-surface station with a barrel-shaped roof above ground, which is covered in solar panels.
I make the length of the roof about 380m from Google maps, and it faces roughly south-east/north-west.
When I passed through near noon on a boiling-hot day in June it was producing what would be about its maximum power at 196.7kW.
FS/RFI are very keen to tell you how beneficial the installation is for the public supply.

20220614_1325-porta susa solar roof.jpg

I know the level of insolation in, say, Manchester is not that of Turin, but it shows what can be done.
Such an installation might be possible at the new HS2 Old Oak Common station, for instance.
 

modernrail

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There are reports today in the newspapers that Network Rail is expecting a massive increase in bills for 23/24. By more than 50% across traction and non-traction.


Network Rail is bracing for a £1bn energy bill for the first time in the history of Britain’s railways, as the energy crisis is forecast to increase its costs by more than 50% over the next financial year.
The cost of traction – providing the electricity for running electric trains – is expected to increase to £885m in 2023-24, Network Rail said, up from £595m this year.
Adding in other uses of energy, such as gas for heating and electricity used for the rest of Network Rail’s operations, will bring its total energy costs to £1,016m, up from £670m.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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There are reports today in the newspapers that Network Rail is expecting a massive increase in bills for 23/24. By more than 50% across traction and non-traction.

Im surprised its only 300m more and suggests that NR's fixed rate deal already has some element of index linking that is dragging up the unit charge. We need to get back to what the Southern Railway did with using coasting boards to encourage drivers to shut off although i'd say one of the best things NR can do is get signallers to not let trains come to a dead stand wherever possible. Too often on my line pull up at a red then it clears upto a green because signaller has set the route up.
 

jayah

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If they don't totally neutralise the price increases there will be demand destruction which is no bad thing. Personally I would have a policy of telling the public we need you to cut back as we need enough gas to run the ovens cooking your chocolate digestives!!
In any given year thousands of additional deaths occur in the cold months than the warm months, regardless of heatwaves.

You need to be plain about what demand destruction means and to whom it will apply.

We have been running a bankrupt energy policy for 15 years now, opposed to any and every reliable and affordable means of providing heating and power. Costs have been loaded onto gas, coal and oil to flatter the intermittent and unreliable alternatives.

It cannot be cost neutral - we should not borrow £bn to defray the cost of orangeries, stables and swimming pools.

Rationing would appear to be the only sensible alternative. At least it would expose the epic policy failure that has brought us here.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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In any given year thousands of additional deaths occur in the cold months than the warm months, regardless of heatwaves.

You need to be plain about what demand destruction means and to whom it will apply.
If the price of something goes up by such a large amount all consumers will look very carefully about what energy they are consuming and change behaviour. I went down 1 degree on heating last season and no one in my house complained it will be down another 1 degree this year. Ive had a blitz on converting all lighting to LEDs. It won't save me a lot given the price increase but its reduced my maximum demand and the more people and business can do that the less overall demand will keep the expensive generators off the system which set the price for all generators not already on fixed price agreements.
We have been running a bankrupt energy policy for 15 years now, opposed to any and every reliable and affordable means of providing heating and power. Costs have been loaded onto gas, coal and oil to flatter the intermittent and unreliable alternatives.
agree and to make matters worse we are now seeing abusive behaviour by the latest wind generators not actualising their CfD contracts so we won't even get their expensive (but much cheaper than the current gas generated price) electricity as they are milking the system and Kwarteng not only stands idlily by but actualising perpetuates the same arrangement for allocation round 4 of renewables.
It cannot be cost neutral - we should not borrow £bn to defray the cost of orangeries, stables and swimming pools.

Rationing would appear to be the only sensible alternative. At least it would expose the epic policy failure that has brought us here.
If we get demand destruction we won't need rationing
 

tomuk

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suggests that NR's fixed rate deal already has some element of index linking that is dragging up the unit charge.
NRs deal isn't fixed rate. NR and groups of TOCs are free to trade the electricity within the overall contract. They can buy and sell their demand many times in advance of consumption. This isn't unusual for large companies.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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NRs deal isn't fixed rate. NR and groups of TOCs are free to trade the electricity within the overall contract. They can buy and sell their demand many times in advance of consumption. This isn't unusual for large companies.
Well that would suggest NR has signed up to fixed amount of x TWh's pa and sell on what it doesn't use or buy up more if it looks likely to exceed the contracted level. Anyhow my point was the actual cost per unit of energy was higher than I was expecting already given when the contract was signed so i was hypothesising that the fixed price deal maybe has some annual adjustment related to a specific index be it CPI or some other production index. This is clearly inferred by NR telling us the cost of energy will be higher despite being on a fixed price contract.
 

tomuk

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Well that would suggest NR has signed up to fixed amount of x TWh's pa and sell on what it doesn't use or buy up more if it looks likely to exceed the contracted level. Anyhow my point was the actual cost per unit of energy was higher than I was expecting already given when the contract was signed so i was hypothesising that the fixed price deal maybe has some annual adjustment related to a specific index be it CPI or some other production index. This is clearly inferred by NR telling us the cost of energy will be higher despite being on a fixed price contract.
It isn't a fixed price contract. NRs predicted consumption will be broken into Tranches. These tranches will be bought and sold ie fixed and unfixed up until consumption similar to any other commodity.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Demand destruction means that thousands of people die of cold, while the stables and orangeries are heated. That shouldn't be part of the plan.
Im no Tory fan but they had already shown plenty of support for pensioners and those less well off and im sure whoever is no10 in 24hrs will be boosting that amount to absolutely avoid what you suggest above.

My point about demand destruction is multi faceted and means a shops/office deciding to turn down the temp by 1 or 2 degrees or maybe even reducing opening hours although this takes small amounts of load off the system taht when aggregated will reduce maximum demand and thus reduce the probability of any blackouts. Any half decent government would have been promoting such behaviour to ensure we get through the winter without blackouts.
 

Class 170101

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My point about demand destruction is multi faceted and means a shops/office deciding to turn down the temp by 1 or 2 degrees or maybe even reducing opening hours although this takes small amounts of load off the system taht when aggregated will reduce maximum demand and thus reduce the probability of any blackouts. Any half decent government would have been promoting such behaviour to ensure we get through the winter without blackouts.
I fear that may not work as well as intended. I can see a situation where people think I'll stay at work and use their electricity, gas and other consumables rather than be at home and paying for it. It could also facilitate (indirectly) a return to the office.

There are two different things to ask here:
1. Why doesn't the railway install solar PV panels on it's own land or buildings to generate electricity and feed it into the grid?
2. Why aren't we seeing solar PV farms feeding directly into railway electrification? <snipped>
Would it be possible to install solar panels as extra canopy protection on station platforms to encourage people to spread down platforms when it rains but also when its hot and sunny in summer as canopies provide extra shade? Obviously the panels would provide power to the station's power supply.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I fear that may not work as well as intended. I can see a situation where people think I'll stay at work and use their electricity, gas and other consumables rather than be at home and paying for it. It could also facilitate (indirectly) a return to the office.
Doesn't stop an office turning down the thermostat. In Germany its been mandated by the way.
 

SteveL9

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There are two different things to ask here:
1. Why doesn't the railway install solar PV panels on it's own land or buildings to generate electricity and feed it into the grid?
2. Why aren't we seeing solar PV farms feeding directly into railway electrification?

The main answer to 1. is that we did see this (Blackfriars station roof was a pioneering project) when the financial climate was right (subsidies meant that there was a secure return on the capital invested). When those subsidies went down much faster than the price of the equipment, the economics didn't make sense, so the whole market ground to a halt. The subsidy regime for field-scale solar farms was different and rates changed at different dates, with some schemes able to qualify well before being completed, so it took longer for that sector to stop. Luckily the rest of the world didn't stop buying, so prices have continued to come down. That means that it is now economic to install PV, if a good proportion of the energy is used directly on site (and so doesn't attract charges for use of the energy network). This has lead to projects like GTR's Streatham Hill depot: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/south-london-train-depot-to-be-covered-in-solar-panels-51633/.

The best sites for using energy on site are always likely to be buildings, so I would expect to see these sort of rooftop projects first. But there is a need for certainty about being their for the contractual payback, so it would a very hard sell right now with the GBR legislation not published! Best bet would be one of the long term train maintenance contracts like DLR Poplar Depot rebuild. The railway doesn't tend to have that much land which is flat, seggregated from trains (to make access for maintenance easy) and in sensible shaped parcels (not long thin strips!). Any such land generally got sold off at privatization, or is protected for future railway use, so they won't want to put 25 year lifespan assets on it. All these mean that ground mounted solar farm developers are likely to see the railway as a hard job, and go somewhere else for land first. Network Rail itself has capital borrowing limits, which makes non-core capital projects like this hard to fund.

Your link directly relates to the second question. If you are building a many-fields-scale solar farm, one of your key problems is getting connected to the electricity network without it costing an arm and a leg (if upgrades to the existing network are needed to connect your development, you are likely to be asked to pay!). Electrified railways are interesting because they have their own private electricity network alongside them, one of the very few that exists. In general, railway networks are much more tolerant of the sort of somewhat "dirty" power put out by small scale generators than the public supply - because the railway itself is an incredibly dirty user! This is one reason why getting supplies for railway electrification can be expensive, it has to be done in a way which doesn't make the neighbour's lights flicker! So there is a real opportunity to connect solar farms adjacent to (or on) electric railways directly, in order to get a cheaper connection - this is exactly what the project you linked to the report on set out to show. It no where near met the line's demand, but it didn't have to get a public grid connection in order to export the power it did produce. There are some technical hurdles about power going "the wrong way" even on the railway (despite the use of regenerative braking), which is what the project looked to overcome. I believe it was a success, but the DC rail network (or rather the 11/33kV 3-phase AC backbone behind it) can't absorb huge amounts of power, and largely exists in the crowded south east, where land for panels expensive.

The big win is being able to connect to 25/50kV single phase electrification system. That's rather harder (because it's non-standard for solar farm kit) but not any harder than a Static Frequency Converter - which are now in main line use in the UK. I believe that there was a next phase project to demonstrate this using a 25kV transformer and traction supply, with the panels connected in place of the traction converter side of the DC link. Effectively it would have been a stationary train re-generating into the OHL, but I've not heard anything about this since then. The drive for doing work will have been limited by the economics of solar power generation as described above for grid connected solar, although that should be getting better now.
Belated thanks for this, very informative!
 

Rajjayme

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There is no easy answer to this question. Network Rail will need to work closely with the train operating companies (TOCs) and freight operators to determine how best to pass on the increased costs. Some form of cost-sharing agreement will likely need to be put in place. Network Rail will also need to consider ways to mitigate the increased costs, such as efficiency savings. Guys from Energy Australia might provide better insight into this subject. I bet they'll have reasonable answers to all your questions. Cheers!
 
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