HS2 Old Oak Common

[Bald Rick]

Our European friends have similar wages

Not so in construction and the railways in general.

Also, whilst their environmental legislation is similar, there’s mich less ‘environment’ for them to get through in most cases. Compare the route of LGV-SEA from Tours to Bordeaux with HS2 from Euston to Handsacre, and see what it has to deal with.

 

[Meerkat]

Isn’t a big issue that the European HS schemes aren’t building massive city centre stations?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

And that's because HS2 was designed as a standalone project, overlaying the existing network, rather than as one component of a national network plan.

Exactly. Facilitating interchange with both the North London and West London Lines should have been a priority from the start.

A very substandard plan for a not particularly close station requiring walking around the streets.
The one for the far more useful West London Line was even worse.
Just do it properly and redevelop Willesden Junction with a people mover to the development site and OOC.

You made this assertion unpersuasively in a previous thread. Repeating it doesn't make it more credible.

 

[FMerrymon]

And that's because HS2 was designed as a standalone project, overlaying the existing network, rather than as one component of a national network plan.

I don't think that's fair. The site of ooc was chosen because of the connectivity potential with the biggest being with the great western which is being built. They're building the passive provision for any Chiltern connection including ensuring the new bridge over OOC Lane is big enough.

The site is constrained as to where the hs2/gw station can be put, there's no passive provision required for LO and building the stations there as part of hs2 would have only added to the budget, then used against it, especially with nonsense cost per mile comparisons.

Perhaps if OOC had been built as a separate project under a different budget to the line, more like how they might do it in Europe, then it might have had a slightly different approach with the LO stations, but its an essential part of hs2 that is difficult to split off.

 

[Trainman40083]

Isn’t a big issue that the European HS schemes aren’t building massive city centre stations?

I was actually trying to think of a mainland European high speed railway, that had a similar scope. Many of the ones I thought of used conventional lines to access main City stations.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Isn’t a big issue that the European HS schemes aren’t building massive city centre stations?

Yes, and that is part of why HS1 and the first phase of HS2 were more expensive than our peers.

But Rugeley to Crewe and Birmingham Interchange to the East Midlands Hub also don’t have massive city centre stations or urban approaches and therefore should be much more comparable to other European projects.

I don't think that's fair. The site of ooc was chosen because of the connectivity potential with the biggest being with the great western which is being built. They're building the passive provision for any Chiltern connection including ensuring the new bridge over OOC Lane is big enough.

The site is constrained as to where the hs2/gw station can be put, there's no passive provision required for LO and building the stations there as part of hs2 would have only added to the budget, then used against it, especially with nonsense cost per mile comparisons.

Perhaps if OOC had been built as a separate project under a different budget to the line, more like how they might do it in Europe, then it might have had a slightly different approach with the LO stations, but its an essential part of hs2 that is difficult to split off.

A london overground station at old oak common could have been very simple following the traditional model of suburban and rural stations and therefore not added significantly to the overall costs of the project.

Stations like Oxford Parkway or even Haddenham and Thame Parkway are new(ish), have full disability access, handle medium-large numbers of passengers and didn’t cost the earth.

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes, and that is part of why HS1 and the first phase of HS2 were more expensive than our peers.

But Rugeley to Crewe and Birmingham Interchange to the East Midlands Hub also don’t have massive city centre stations or urban approaches and therefore should be much more comparable to other European projects.


A london overground station at old oak common could have been very simple following the traditional model of suburban and rural stations and therefore not added significantly to the overall costs of the project.

Stations like Oxford Parkway or even Haddenham and Thame Parkway are new(ish), have full disability access, handle medium-large numbers of passengers and didn’t cost the earth.

I'm sure any potential London Overground station will have to come out of the TfL funding pot, not HS2. "You want it, you pay for it" will be the Government cry. Not exactly joined up thinking

 

[Meerkat]

You made this assertion unpersuasively in a previous thread. Repeating it doesn't make it more credible.

The proposed Overground stations are not close enough to be proper connections. The Clapham line one is miles away!

 

[MatthewHutton]

The proposed Overground stations are not close enough to be proper connections. The Clapham line one is miles away!

They are about 100m and 200m away as far as I can tell on the maps.

File:Willesden Junction map with Old Oak Common.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

Like sure a travelator would be ideal but it certainly isn't required for phase 1.

 

[kevin_roche]

They are about 100m and 200m away as far as I can tell on the maps.

Like sure a travelator would be ideal but it certainly isn't required for phase 1.

I wonder if the logistics tunnel could eventually be used as a way to get to OOC from one or another of the stations nearby. It looks like it passes close to Old Oak Common Lane Station.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder if the logistics tunnel could eventually be used as a way to get to OOC from one or another of the stations nearby. It looks like it passes close to Old Oak Common Lane Station.

I'd be surprised if it was sufficient diameter to host a walkway. How big was the TBM?

 

[stuu]

They are about 100m and 200m away as far as I can tell on the maps.

File:Willesden Junction map with Old Oak Common.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

Like sure a travelator would be ideal but it certainly isn't required for phase 1.

In a straight line perhaps to the nearest part of the station, door to door the WLL station is 1.1km or thereabouts. Unless you built a travelator over the EL depot and an eastern entrance to OOC station

The NLL station would be over 400m

 

[stuving]

I'd be surprised if it was sufficient diameter to host a walkway. How big was the TBM?

The TBM had a shield diameter of 7.08 m. But I thought the tunnel had been promised in the long term for electricity supply cables, and perhaps other similar uses.

 

[MatthewHutton]

The TBM had a shield diameter of 7.08 m. But I thought the tunnel had been promised in the long term for electricity supply cables, and perhaps other similar uses.

A 7m diameter tunnel seems surely big enough for both uses?

 

[Tobberz]

It is curious that concrete decisions on new Overground stations haven't yet been taken - you'd hope these things would be further progressed than they are, but perhaps they are waiting on the West London Orbital.

 

[MatthewHutton]

It is curious that concrete decisions on new Overground stations haven't yet been taken - you'd hope these things would be further progressed than they are, but perhaps they are waiting on the West London Orbital.

It is game-playing to get HS2 to pay for the new stations in full.

When they built the A34 one of the junctions only had slip roads in one direction because the road people wanted the atomic energy authority to pay for them the other way.

Its all ridiculous.

 

[Bald Rick]

It is curious that concrete decisions on new Overground stations haven't yet been taken - you'd hope these things would be further progressed than they are, but perhaps they are waiting on the West London Orbital.

Has anyone been asked to make a decision? I don’t think they have…

 

[JKF]

I feel have gone off topic here. But I do think that if HS2 is to be extended or improved that the costs for any further extensions/improvements will need to come down to be closer to our European friends.

Our European friends have similar wages, unionised workforces and environmental legislation as well.

They don’t have as much stuff between the cities, at least in places like France and Spain. We’re a lot more densely packed in and consequently land is more expensive.

 

[MatthewHutton]

They don’t have as much stuff between the cities, at least in places like France and Spain. We’re a lot more densely packed in and consequently land is more expensive.

Japan, Taiwan, the Netherlands and Belgium have stuff between their cities. And the former two have much worse weather and earthquakes. And even so their costs are lower.

 

[zwk500]

Japan, Taiwan, the Netherlands and Belgium have stuff between their cities. And the former two have much worse weather and earthquakes. And even so their costs are lower.

I can't comment on Japan and Taiwan but have a look at a map and check just how far outside Brussels, Antwerp, Liege, Amsterdam, and Rotherham the HSL actually end. Then ask why their costs might be lower.
Brussels-Aachen gets two HSL numbers but is one route. Brussels-Antwerp has several major gaps in the HS sections.
Also, in answer to your earlier point Amsterdam only has 1 HS line, and the Dutch network doesn't even get 125mph on the classic network. The proposal for an Amsterdam-Germany HS line is regularly made but struggles in the political process.

If we'd built HS2 in the style of the low countries it'd run from Watford to Birmingham International.

 

[Snow1964]

Isn't there a plan for a station at Old Oak Common Lane? As Meerkat says, it doesn't have funding yet, but hopefully as HS2 gets closer to opening there's a better business case for it

The most recent construction document suggests there will be public update on Old Oak Common Lane in next few months (Spring 2025). See attached.

https://assets.hs2.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Old-Oak-Common-Lane-Newsletter-November-2024.pdf

 

[MarlowDonkey]

If we'd built HS2 in the style of the low countries it'd run from Watford to Birmingham International.

By a curious coincidence that's partly the route of the M1 when it first opened in 1959, although that got no closer to Birmingham than Daventry.

 

[PG]

I can't comment on Japan and Taiwan but have a look at a map and check just how far outside Brussels, Antwerp, Liege, Amsterdam, and Rotherham the HSL actually end.

I assume that their services on those HSLs continue beyond the end of the HSLs and use classic lines to continue into the city centres?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The proposed Overground stations are not close enough to be proper connections. The Clapham line one is miles away!

I suggest you go through the old thread on this subject. Your assertions were comprehensively rebutted.

 

[The Planner]

By a curious coincidence that's partly the route of the M1 when it first opened in 1959, although that got no closer to Birmingham than Daventry.

Yes, but the M1 was never intended to stay like that, @zwk500 example shows that the European examples were permanent.

 

[FMerrymon]

The most recent construction document suggests there will be public update on Old Oak Common Lane in next few months (Spring 2025). See attached.

https://assets.hs2.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Old-Oak-Common-Lane-Newsletter-November-2024.pdf

Looks like it only talking about the road, rather than the station. HS2 unlikely to announce anything, it will be from tfl instead.

 

[PLY2AYS]

I assume that their services on those HSLs continue beyond the end of the HSLs and use classic lines to continue into the city centres?

I’m fairly sure Nangang to Zuoying is captive… and unlike comments above; the majority of stations on the route are deliberately placed on the periphery and outskirts of major urban areas and cities, not the centres.

 

[Horizon22]

In a straight line perhaps to the nearest part of the station, door to door the WLL station is 1.1km or thereabouts. Unless you built a travelator over the EL depot and an eastern entrance to OOC station

The NLL station would be over 400m

Old Oak Lane is probably the most feasible. It's realistically quite close and considering the amount of public realm planned for the surrounds of the station could relatively easily be integrated.

 

[themiller]

I assume that their services on those HSLs continue beyond the end of the HSLs and use classic lines to continue into the city centres?

Certainly in Japan, Shinkansen lines go into the cities as they are a standard gauge rather than the 1067mm of the ‘classic’ lines.

 

[Citybreak1]

I passed some construction just before Peterborough on way up to Edinburgh is this part of the HS2 works?