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HS2 Old Oak Common

Geogregor

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Webinar about environmental aspects of OOC construction:


Some great shots here:

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Wilts Wanderer

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‘Anne’ is one of the TBMs designed to dig the Northolt Tunnel section towards the Chilterns
 

YorkRailFan

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Sadiq Khan trashes the DfT's plans for the private sector to fund HS2 Old Oak Common to Euston.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan has rubbished the Department for Transport’s (DfT’s) plan for the private sector to fund the proposed High Speed 2 (HS2) connection from Old Oak Common to Euston station.
In October, the government confirmed the prime minister’s vision of a “Euston Quarter” with a six-platform HS2 station and “up to 10,000 homes” will only go forward with private investment.

During his HS2-cutting speech during the Conservative Party Conference in October, Rishi Sunak announced that the development of HS2’s London terminus, which was originally planned to be 11 stations, would be wrested away from HS2 Ltd and taken over by a government-appointed development company.

During Mayor’s Questions last week, Khan said the dream of the private sector paying the estimated £6.5bn for the “Euston Quarter” was never going to be a reality.

He said: “There’s not a cat in hell's chance of the private sector completely paying the £6.5bn.

"Who’s going to build the tunnel from Euston to Euston Square? Who’s going to build the connection from Euston to Old Oak Common? Who’s going to improve the public realm? Who’s going to give permission for 10,000 homes and the impact on the local community?”


While the DfT’s permanent secretary Bernadette Kelly wrote to the Public Accounts Committee saying that “under the new plan for Euston the HS2 station is expected to attract private funding”, Khan doesn’t believe this is the case.

In his speech Khan also queried where the money the government believes it will save from getting the private sector to pay for the “Euston Quarter” will be spent.

He said: “What the government said is the money they saved from doing this will be reinvested in other projects, but where are the other projects in London for the money they’ve taken away from this leg?

“Lots and lots of questions we are still waiting for answers on.”

In March this year, the development of HS2 Euston was put on pause for two years, leaving a 24ha open construction site dormant in the centre of London.


While the site is paused, the government sought to deliver a new design that would bring it back into budget. This was the second restart of the design after it had previously spent £105M on the 11-platform design which was mothballed and no longer of use.

The DfT has hit back at Khan’s comments saying it is using a similar approach to the successful regeneration of King’s Cross and the Battersea and Nine Elms development, which included both the Northern Line extension and development of the Battersea Power Station. The Battersea Power Station development was able to secure £9bn in private sector investment.

DfT officials further believe Euston sits in an internationally significant commercial district close to a world-leading cluster of scientific, research and development institutions, giving the site increased value thanks to the improved connectivity HS2 infrastructure will bring.

The department said establishing a Development Corporation to deliver Euston will enable it to cut through red tape with the potential to develop up to 10,000 homes.

Euston Partnership chair Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill said: “I welcome the certainty of HS2 terminating at Euston, and the proposed Development Corporation to take the station and regeneration forward to deliver connectivity, growth, jobs and homes.

“This is a real opportunity to create a transformative Euston quarter with as many as 10,000 homes, echoing the regeneration success stories of Battersea and nearby King’s Cross. I am sure the partners will work collaboratively with the government to work through the financial and other mechanisms to make this work.”

A DfT spokesperson said: “As has always been planned, the line will finish at Euston. This is a world class regeneration opportunity and there is already extensive support and interest from the private sector to invest.”
The Mayor has a point, the private sector likely sees this as a risk, they're not going to invest in something unless they know it's going to go through.
 

jfowkes

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10,000 homes? Is there space for that on the Euston HS2 site? Doing some very rough maths with the 25 hectare area and average flat size in London (62 sq. m), there would be an awful lot of pretty tall tower blocks.
 

Fazaar1889

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Cool image of the front of a TBM at the victoria crossover box.
Cutterhead at our Victoria Rd Crossover Box site
 

Yindee8191

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Very good flyover video for Old Oak Common. You can see quite a lot of the excavation progress, as well as the piling work for the GWML station.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Very good flyover video for Old Oak Common. You can see quite a lot of the excavation progress, as well as the piling work for the GWML station.
Excellent flyover really see the scale of the activity in a very constrained area. The Willesden freight terminal has never had so much traffic since it was rebuilt in the 1990's.
 

JJmoogle

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10,000 homes? Is there space for that on the Euston HS2 site? Doing some very rough maths with the 25 hectare area and average flat size in London (62 sq. m), there would be an awful lot of pretty tall tower blocks.
Technically, yes. Although actually building that wouldn't make much business sense, it doesn't even make social sense(it'd be impossibly constrained for building community facilities like schools)

Considering just to the west we have OOC, with far more easily developed land and also has transport connections(including HS2), like what business is going to bung in £6.5 billion, I wonder how much TFL will charge for the Overground stops around OOC for example

Seems utterly absurd to consider a key piece of national infrastructure on the same level as the extension to Barking Riverside, or Battersea.
 

absolutelymilk

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I'm interested in updating the photo of construction at Old Oak Common on Wikipedia. Does anyone have any photos that they are willing to put on Wikipedia? I tried going yesterday but couldn't find a good spot for a photo due to the double layers of fences.
 

Snow1964

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The BBC has run an article, and a Plymouth MP has been highlighting the disruption to GWR services over years

Development of a huge station for high speed rail links between London and the Midlands will lead to a "decade of disruption" for rail passengers in south-west England, a Plymouth MP has said.
Luke Pollard, Labour MP for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, said building the station at Old Oak Common, external in west London would affect rail passengers travelling between Devon and Cornwall and Paddington.

The station is being touted by HS2 as the "largest new railway station ever built in the UK".

The Department for Transport (DoT) said it was working to mitigate any disruption.

Mr Pollard said construction of the station could involve a "large number of weekend closures" of the line between Reading and London Paddington.

"Construction of this huge new station in west London will mean a decade of disruption and longer journeys for people travelling from the South West and Wales into Paddington," he said.

"It means leisure and business travel will take longer and for no apparent gain."

The DoT said it was working with Network Rail, HS2 Ltd, and train operating companies to "minimise the impacts of disruption".

It added that "it is not fully known what the situation will be".


The big problem that no one is explaining is that where I live (Wiltshire / Somerset border), and feeling gets stronger further south west you go. GWR is seen as a leisure railway not a Monday-Friday commuter service, so disrupting weekend services becomes less acceptable. So whilst stopping weekend trains to Swindon / Oxford /Newbury etc is seen as ok, there is a feeling trains from Devon and Cornwall need to be continued or diverted into another London station, or taken as far as Ealing Broadway for tube connections
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There will be a couple of periods of major disruption when the layout of the GW route at OOC is altered to enable the new station to be built.
Once this is done, the actual station construction period should not involve significant disruption, until the time comes to integrate the new layout with the old.
There has been talk of diverting some services into Euston (using the link from Acton to Willesden) during disruption.
Most of the remodelling work is, I believe, planned over Christmas periods, so regular commuting traffic won't be seriously affected.

But as many weary WCML travellers will testify from the decade-long WCRM project, you can't avoid disruption while upgrading operational infrastructure.
If HS2 is to terminate at OOC, then a new GWML station is needed there.
 

irish_rail

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The BBC has run an article, and a Plymouth MP has been highlighting the disruption to GWR services over years




The big problem that no one is explaining is that where I live (Wiltshire / Somerset border), and feeling gets stronger further south west you go. GWR is seen as a leisure railway not a Monday-Friday commuter service, so disrupting weekend services becomes less acceptable. So whilst stopping weekend trains to Swindon / Oxford /Newbury etc is seen as ok, there is a feeling trains from Devon and Cornwall need to be continued or diverted into another London station, or taken as far as Ealing Broadway for tube connections
I saw this to. Glad to see Mr Pollard has picked up on this, and fair play to BBC for pointing out that the south west gets precisely zero benefit for the 10 years worth of disruption we face. I've said it once and I'll say it again, but Old Oak common should NOT be a call for GWR long distance services. Diverting services into Euston as opposed to cancellation in the interim is also a must, even though it will extend journey times.

But as many weary WCML travellers will testify from the decade-long WCRM project, you can't avoid disruption while upgrading operational infrastructure.
If HS2 is to terminate at OOC, then a new GWML station is needed there.
I suppose the difference is,the weary WCML travellers had something to show from their decade of disruption in the noughties, whereas the entire south of the country and south Wales get no benefit whatsoever from HS2 and OOC.
 

Snow1964

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There has been talk of diverting some services into Euston (using the link from Acton to Willesden) during disruption.
Most of the remodelling work is, I believe, planned over Christmas periods, so regular commuting traffic won't be seriously affected.

That is the mismatch of thinking, people in SE see it as do it at Christmas because of commuting, people in SW see it as avoid school holiday closures as that's when people undertake more long leisure journeys.

By doing the work at Christmas alienating more of SW, all inconvenience and no benefit.

And as recent Feb school half term fiasco at Kings Cross proved, messing up long distance trains during school holidays is bad idea, especially if don't divert them.
 

The Planner

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There has been talk of diverting some services into Euston (using the link from Acton to Willesden) during disruption.
Most of the remodelling work is, I believe, planned over Christmas periods, so regular commuting traffic won't be seriously affected.
Its more than talk now, pretty much a certainty from what Ive heard.
 

Agent_Squash

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I saw this to. Glad to see Mr Pollard has picked up on this, and fair play to BBC for pointing out that the south west gets precisely zero benefit for the 10 years worth of disruption we face. I've said it once and I'll say it again, but Old Oak common should NOT be a call for GWR long distance services. Diverting services into Euston as opposed to cancellation in the interim is also a must, even though it will extend journey times.

Why is giving access to much better connections to the North a bad thing?

The idea that long distance trains shouldn’t stop outside the terminus for connections is weird. It happens all the time in Europe.
 

Benjwri

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Why is giving access to much better connections to the North a bad thing?

The idea that long distance trains shouldn’t stop outside the terminus for connections is weird. It happens all the time in Europe.
I think the biggest issue is going to be huge volumes of passengers overcrowding trains between Old Oak Common and Paddington, given there is very little opportunity to enforce a Set Down/Pick Up restriction even if one were there.
 

Agent_Squash

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I think the biggest issue is going to be huge volumes of passengers overcrowding trains between Old Oak Common and Paddington, given there is very little opportunity to enforce a Set Down/Pick Up restriction even if one were there.

Is this really going to be an issue, though?

Minimum 16tph on the Lizzy, plus 20tph on the GW fasts. If 36tph isn’t enough, what is?

Most people will choose the Lizzy because it’s more convenient to get to.
 

irish_rail

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Why is giving access to much better connections to the North a bad thing?

The idea that long distance trains shouldn’t stop outside the terminus for connections is weird. It happens all the time in Europe.
It does not give better connections to the north! No one from Plymouth, Bristol or Cardiff is going to travel to Birmingham via Old oak common! I'm not even completely convinced that huge numbers from say Reading wouldn't prefer a direct XC train to New street, than travelling to Curzon Street via a change at OOC. Same for Oxford. The only people on the classic GWR intercity route who may well prefer to travel to Birmingham via OOC are potentially Newbury and Westbury folk. Though I remain to be convinced that there is a great market for rail travel to Birmingham, other than for New Street and onward connections.
 

Agent_Squash

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It does not give better connections to the north! No one from Plymouth, Bristol or Cardiff is going to travel to Birmingham via Old oak common!

But they may to Manchester, the North West, and Scotland. Especially if they actually finish the thing.

Plus isn’t the plan to connect OOC to the overground at some point?
 

irish_rail

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But they may to Manchester, the North West, and Scotland. Especially if they actually finish the thing.

Plus isn’t the plan to connect OOC to the overground at some point?
IF and its a massive IF the line eventually reaches Manchester Liverpool and further north, then OOC may be worth having for the south of England and south Wales. But until those routes open, then no benefit in slowing GWR services down for the Birmingham connection.
 

Benjwri

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Is this really going to be an issue, though?

Minimum 16tph on the Lizzy, plus 20tph on the GW fasts. If 36tph isn’t enough, what is?

Most people will choose the Lizzy because it’s more convenient to get to.
Lizzy Line is more convenient from anywhere on it. If changing at Paddington though GWR might be, and If it’s quicker on GWR journey planners will recommend it.
 

stuu

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I think the biggest issue is going to be huge volumes of passengers overcrowding trains between Old Oak Common and Paddington, given there is very little opportunity to enforce a Set Down/Pick Up restriction even if one were there.
The only people who will get on a GWR train are those going no further than Paddington. Which won't be many

IF and its a massive IF the line eventually reaches Manchester Liverpool and further north, then OOC may be worth having for the south of England and south Wales. But until those routes open, then no benefit in slowing GWR services down for the Birmingham connection.
The quicker connection to the EL is a benefit too
 

Agent_Squash

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Lizzy Line is more convenient from anywhere on it. If changing at Paddington though GWR might be, and If it’s quicker on GWR journey planners will recommend it.

That’s simple then - set the timetabled times from Paddington to OOC to be the same across all modes.

IF and its a massive IF the line eventually reaches Manchester Liverpool and further north, then OOC may be worth having for the south of England and south Wales. But until those routes open, then no benefit in slowing GWR services down for the Birmingham connection.

It’s more likely than not that these services will be on HS2 from relatively early on.

It’s better to get the disruption out of the way whilst half of it is still being built rather than messing up two live operational railways.
 

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