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HS2 Old Oak Common

HSTEd

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I'd say its unlikely to work out cheaper (or much quicker) doing say Plymouth to the north west via OOC.
I would not be at all surprised if it works out cheaper via OOC.

OOC will have absolute buckets of very cheap capacity available for journeys to the north.
Given the poor staff and stock utilisation on XC services given their low average speeds, as well as other operating cost disadvantages, it is almost certain to be cheaper to provide marginal capacity into London and out again than providing that capacity via the "direct" route.

A seat from OOC to northern destinations will cost the railway, and thus the state, almost nothing.
A seat on the "direct" alignment will cost a lot more than that, even including the cost of a seat on the Plymouth-London leg.

Where does the railway, and thus the state, want to direct to traffic to improve its financial position in that situation?

As for attempting a complex "stop some services at OOC" timetable, that is going to cause further reductions in capacity on the fast lines out of Paddington.
It is more or less stop everything or stop nothing.
 
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fishwomp

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Given the poor staff and stock utilisation on XC services given their low average speeds, as well as other operating cost disadvantages, it is almost certain to be cheaper to provide marginal capacity into London and out again than providing that capacity via the "direct" route.

A seat from OOC to northern destinations will cost the railway, and thus the state, almost nothing.
A seat on the "direct" alignment will cost a lot more than that, even including the cost of a seat on the Plymouth-London leg.
Are you suggesting to remove XC services now then, or will there be seats on that .. hence zero marginal cost..

If two XCs per hour are rendered unnecessary for some, they'll be unnecessary for almost everyone: - the only place they go between Bristol P and Brum is Gloucester/Cheltenham.. - so now you need to have 9-10 extra carriage loads of capacity on the GWR from Bristol/BPW for all those additional GWR users, plus some extra Reading seats. HS3 anyone?
 

Wychwood93

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I wasn’t arguing that point - no one will be forced to travel via OOC - it was merely that you suggested that HS2 trains wouldnt be going to Manchester etc. They will.

FWIW, I doubt if many people will route Plymouth - OOC - Manchester. But Reading - OOC - Manchester will be about an hour quicker than direct, and Swindon / Newbury to Manchester will be quicker via OOC if the connections are reasonable.


Meanwhile in France, there are plenty of examples where cross country journeys are much wuicker with a god leg via Paris.
Likewise with Spain - Málaga/Barcelona via nearly Madrid.
 

Horizon22

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Bumpkin

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swt_passenger

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IETs were planned to be route cleared from Reading to Waterloo via Ascot in a very early list of routes that surfaced in one of the enhancement delivery plans. Of course many types of stock have fairly serious speed limits through Ascot, eg Mk3 coaches.

I expect they gave up when they realised that at the time there were no known plans for diversions, I guess it was possibly a decision made 5 or 6 years ago.

As it’s previously been stated that IET can go anywhere HSTs did, why don’t they clear Yeovil and Westbury to Waterloo via Salisbury, Basingstoke and Woking? Get maximum flexibility.
 

Benjwri

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As it’s previously been stated that IET can go anywhere HSTs did, why don’t they clear Yeovil and Westbury to Waterloo via Salisbury, Basingstoke and Woking? Get maximum flexibility.
I believe theoretically they can do so, but they still have to be cleared in their own right, which is a time consuming process. Since there is no feasible scenario where they would use the route on an ad hoc diversion, there isn't much point doing so unless there is a reason to, which there hasn't been.
 

Horizon22

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IETs were planned to be route cleared from Reading to Waterloo via Ascot in a very early list of routes that surfaced in one of the enhancement delivery plans. Of course many types of stock have fairly serious speed limits through Ascot, eg Mk3 coaches.

I expect they gave up when they realised that at the time there were no known plans for diversions, I guess it was possibly a decision made 5 or 6 years ago.

As it’s previously been stated that IET can go anywhere HSTs did, why don’t they clear Yeovil and Westbury to Waterloo via Salisbury, Basingstoke and Woking? Get maximum flexibility.

I supsect the route for IETs to Waterloo would be Ealing > Acton Wells > Willesden Junction > Shepherds Bush > Latchmere Junction > Waterloo. It's a lot longer than Euston, but good to test out all routes.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I was under the impression that the North Pole depot access to the WLL, and the Sheepcote Lane curve on to the SWML, were out of use since the Eurostar move to St Pancras/Temple Mills.
Evidently not...
So GWR IET services can still reach Waterloo via Acton Wells and the WLL (on diesel).
Do GWR's 387s still have 3rd rail capability?
 

jfowkes

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I supsect the route for IETs to Waterloo would be Ealing > Acton Wells > Willesden Junction > Shepherds Bush > Latchmere Junction > Waterloo. It's a lot longer than Euston, but good to test out all routes.
In this twitter thread Simon Kendler confirms that both the route as you describe and also Euston are being tested today:

Specifically this set of tweets:

@clloyd3003
What route have they taken to get there? Via Basingstoke?

@SimonZev
Straight out of North Pole and up the West London Line

@clloyd3003
Oh right, I feel like might need to test other aspects of that route then!

@SimonZev
No need. This is for diversions around OOC HS2 blockade. So the units will either divert via the WLL into Waterloo or up the WCML into Euston (which is where the unit is going now)

@clloyd3003
I'm aware of the blockades. Where would a train from the West leave the Western mainline for Waterloo?

@SimonZev
Acton Main Line
Use the Poplars to get onto the North London Line, up Willesden South West Sidings and then straight up the WCML into Euston or round the curve onto the WLL to Waterloo
 

Horizon22

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I was under the impression that the North Pole depot access to the WLL, and the Sheepcote Lane curve on to the SWML, were out of use since the Eurostar move to St Pancras/Temple Mills.
Evidently not...
So GWR IET services can still reach Waterloo via Acton Wells and the WLL (on diesel).
Do GWR's 387s still have 3rd rail capability?

There are some - unconfirmed - reports that the small section of line will be electrified. Elizabeth line would be terminated at Ealing Broadway if not, although not sure on 3rd rail capability but I would hazard a guess that 345s and 387s do have passive provision.
 

The Planner

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There are some - unconfirmed - reports that the small section of line will be electrified. Elizabeth line would be terminated at Ealing Broadway if not, although not sure on 3rd rail capability but I would hazard a guess that 345s and 387s do have passive provision.
The Poplars (Acton to Acton Wells) were/are planned to be electrified as part of this.
 

Horizon22

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The routes broadly are this:
Red to Waterloo
Blue to Euston
Green is North Pole Depot

The Poplars (Acton to Acton Wells) were/are planned to be electrified as part of this.

Thanks, makes sense.
 

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Greybeard33

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OOC will have absolute buckets of very cheap capacity available for journeys to the north.
Given the poor staff and stock utilisation on XC services given their low average speeds, as well as other operating cost disadvantages, it is almost certain to be cheaper to provide marginal capacity into London and out again than providing that capacity via the "direct" route.

A seat from OOC to northern destinations will cost the railway, and thus the state, almost nothing.
A seat on the "direct" alignment will cost a lot more than that, even including the cost of a seat on the Plymouth-London leg.
OOC might well have buckets of cheap capacity to Birmingham, but now Phase 2 is cancelled capacity further north will be at least as constrained as now, with 200m HS2 classic compatibles replacing 260m Pendolinos. I imagine dynamic pricing of fares from London to Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow will be employed to control demand for peak services.
 

stuving

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IETs were planned to be route cleared from Reading to Waterloo via Ascot in a very early list of routes that surfaced in one of the enhancement delivery plans. Of course many types of stock have fairly serious speed limits through Ascot, eg Mk3 coaches.

I expect they gave up when they realised that at the time there were no known plans for diversions, I guess it was possibly a decision made 5 or 6 years ago.

As it’s previously been stated that IET can go anywhere HSTs did, why don’t they clear Yeovil and Westbury to Waterloo via Salisbury, Basingstoke and Woking? Get maximum flexibility.
The IEP Network listed in the GW IEP Network MARA (Appendix F to Schedule 1) includes "Reading to Waterloo via Ascot and both Twickenham and Brentford*" as "Non Core Route", "Secondary". I understood that the whole of this IEP Network was cleared as part of the IEP introduction programme. (The asterisk is in the original table, but I can't find any explanation of its meaning.)

The GW MARA IEP Network table also lists two routes around Old Oak:
ECS Route: South of North Pole Jn to Acton East Jn (but not south along the WLL)
Diversionary Route: Old Oak Common to West Ealing/Hanwell Junctions via Greenford (in theory!)
 
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Benjwri

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The Poplars (Acton to Acton Wells) were/are planned to be electrified as part of this.
Poplars Electrification is pretty much confirmed given there are numerous works in the Engineering Access Statement which are listed specifically as this.
 

zwk500

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Poplars Electrification is pretty much confirmed given there are numerous works in the Engineering Access Statement which are listed specifically as this.
Does this include Acton Wells Jn to Willesden West London Jn and the Willesden No. 7/Acton Canal Wharf jn curve?
 

The Planner

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Poplars Electrification is pretty much confirmed given there are numerous works in the Engineering Access Statement which are listed specifically as this.
Not seen a Network Change for it yet.

Does this include Acton Wells Jn to Willesden West London Jn and the Willesden No. 7/Acton Canal Wharf jn curve?
No, it was only meant to be the Poplars to get to the NLL.
 

Bald Rick

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Which doesn't give you an electric route to Euston or the WLL.

There doesn‘t need to be an electric route to Euston or the WLL, as the 80x have diesel engines.

What there does need to be is an electric route to the NLL, so the EL units that are stuck on the west side and can’t get to OOC for maintenance can get round to Ilford.
 

Benjwri

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Not seen a Network Change for it yet.
There are 8 works in this year's EAS, first one in June combined with OOC works. There are 4 where it is combined with OOC works, and 4 where it is just Poplars closed throughout the rest of the year. In 2025 its in for 18:00 Saturday to 9:30 Sunday pretty much every weekend all year. I can't find a Network Change, but the public portal isn't exactly up to date or organised.
 
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The Planner

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There are 8 works in this year's EAS, first one in June combined with OOC works. There are 4 where it is combined with OOC works, and 4 where it is just Poplars closed throughout the rest of the year. In 2025 its in for 18:00 Saturday to 9:30 Sunday pretty much every weekend all year. I can't find a Network Change, but the public portal isn't exactly up to date or organised.
Don't assume that because access is there that its going to happen. Access has a habit of being pulled the day before in some cases.
 

Boodiggy

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Does this include Acton Wells Jn to Willesden West London Jn and the Willesden No. 7/Acton Canal Wharf jn curve?
There was plans a few years back to do it as I remember the track design / lower for the South West Lines.
Not sure where the project currently sits.
Although the majority of freight goes off the wires at Mitre Bridge anyway. There isn’t a huge amount that goes to the WCML.
 

BrianW

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I saw this to. Glad to see Mr Pollard has picked up on this, and fair play to BBC for pointing out that the south west gets precisely zero benefit for the 10 years worth of disruption we face. I've said it once and I'll say it again, but Old Oak common should NOT be a call for GWR long distance services. Diverting services into Euston as opposed to cancellation in the interim is also a must, even though it will extend journey times.


I suppose the difference is,the weary WCML travellers had something to show from their decade of disruption in the noughties, whereas the entire south of the country and south Wales get no benefit whatsoever from HS2 and OOC.
Regarding the observations of the Plymouth MP about disruption caused to travellers to London from the South West, a couple of points.
During major disruptions/ closures at Old Oak Common, travellers have alternative routes available via Exeter or Reading to Waterloo- not ideal of course but possible.
During construction of OOC GW and Lizzie Line platforms, I imagine no land will be taken from Wormwood Scrubs Common to the south (why not?), so lines will need to slew to the north- can that not be phased to reduce disruption to running lines?
If time taken to call at OOC is deemed undesirable, I am sure that a stop can be 'lost' somewhere- again not ideal but possible. Existing times Plymouth- Paddington vary from 2h59 to nearly 4h according to time of day and calling patterns.
I would imagine that passengers Bristol/Cardiff to NWEngland will continue to consider XC, as will those from Reading/ the South. If via OOC becomes the quicker route then it may 'win'.
The current shortness and shortcomings of XC are already turning potential customers away.
I agree with the comments re MK- travel and calling patterns for OOC can and will develop over time.
 

hwl

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During construction of OOC GW and Lizzie Line platforms, I imagine no land will be taken from Wormwood Scrubs Common to the south (why not?),
a) it is protected.
b) there is the rather large North Pole depot in the way...
so lines will need to slew to the north- can that not be phased to reduce disruption to running lines?
That is exactly what is happening, the complaints revolve around the small number of closures between phases when the tracks are slewed in different ways. (Similar to the London Bridge works phasing).
The initial phase sees relief line platform construction to the north of the current GWML tracks before the first track realignment through those platforms to allow platform construction further south in several phases.
 

irish_rail

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Regarding the observations of the Plymouth MP about disruption caused to travellers to London from the South West, a couple of points.
During major disruptions/ closures at Old Oak Common, travellers have alternative routes available via Exeter or Reading to Waterloo- not ideal of course but possible.
During construction of OOC GW and Lizzie Line platforms, I imagine no land will be taken from Wormwood Scrubs Common to the south (why not?), so lines will need to slew to the north- can that not be phased to reduce disruption to running lines?
If time taken to call at OOC is deemed undesirable, I am sure that a stop can be 'lost' somewhere- again not ideal but possible. Existing times Plymouth- Paddington vary from 2h59 to nearly 4h according to time of day and calling patterns.
I would imagine that passengers Bristol/Cardiff to NWEngland will continue to consider XC, as will those from Reading/ the South. If via OOC becomes the quicker route then it may 'win'.
The current shortness and shortcomings of XC are already turning potential customers away.
I agree with the comments re MK- travel and calling patterns for OOC can and will develop over time.
So you are basically proposing that people from the south west just grin and bear it. After all, what's an extra hour or so travelling with SWR from Exeter to Waterloo instead?..... It isn't really fair is it, that GWR customers are having to make all these sacrifices for such a long period for pretty much no discernible benefit.
 

stuu

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So you are basically proposing that people from the south west just grin and bear it. After all, what's an extra hour or so travelling with SWR from Exeter to Waterloo instead?..... It isn't really fair is it, that GWR customers are having to make all these sacrifices for such a long period for pretty much no discernible benefit.
For a few days at Christmas, for the next three years. Some perspective is needed here
 

Benjwri

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So you are basically proposing that people from the south west just grin and bear it. After all, what's an extra hour or so travelling with SWR from Exeter to Waterloo instead?..... It isn't really fair is it, that GWR customers are having to make all these sacrifices for such a long period for pretty much no discernible benefit.
I agree that the suggestion that it’s all fine because they have another option that’s an hour longer is ridiculous. Not to mention given how that went last time OOC works closed the GWML, with significant queues at Reading and trains leaving full and standing for a 1hr 30 journey, which is absolutely ridiculous. SWR has not even close to the capacity to handle all of GWR’s passengers from Reading. That then means OOC works are affecting users of SWR too, because all their trains are turning up full and standing all the way to Waterloo.

Although good points have been made about the benefits of HS2, they’ve failed to answer the question that started this, which was it doesn’t benefit the current users of the GWML who are affected by the works. Someone from Bristol, Cardiff or Penzance who would take XC, but may take HS2, isn’t as affected by these works because they aren’t travelling into London now. Meanwhile those of us who have suffered going on a decade of disruption now have half a decade more almost guaranteed. For most people living outside Reading that has been to bring the Elizabeth line, from which they have seen little benefit, at least from the bit that the disruption was for.

There was also disruption for electrification, and although that has brought benefits, for those out to Bristol and Oxford significant amounts of enabling works caused a lot of disruption, just for the electrification to never materialise.

Personally, living between Didcot and Reading when not at uni, all this disruption has brought a worse service. We lost direct trains to Oxford, and to many stop towards London, replaced by a semi fast service that it’s still quicker to change at Reading than take.

For a few days at Christmas, for the next three years. Some perspective is needed here
That’s sort of forgetting that there will be significantly reduced services a decent amount of weekends, increasingly more into next year with no late night Saturday and early morning Sunday service.

Thats reduced GWR services, delayed GWR services with congestion, heavily reduced Elizabeth Line services and no service to Acton Mainline a fair chunk of the time.

I travelled last week and thinks to congestion caused by OOC works my first train was 30 minutes late, which caused me to miss my connecting train, and as the next train was removed from the timetable for the works, I suffered a two hour delay. There was no other disruption than these works.
 

zwk500

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So you are basically proposing that people from the south west just grin and bear it. After all, what's an extra hour or so travelling with SWR from Exeter to Waterloo instead?..... It isn't really fair is it, that GWR customers are having to make all these sacrifices for such a long period for pretty much no discernible benefit.
Why should SW passengers be unfairly prioritised over the national need?
 

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