HS2 Old Oak Common

[SynthD]

The tube map has the Clapham and Richmond branch diverge further south than the tube and rail. The former will have to follow the latter.

The EL, HEx and GWR will have a white disabled symbol, with a dashed line for interchange to the second station, also a white symbol. The Mildmay line may have to move left a bit for the Old Oak Common label, as the Picc does at Haringey green lanes. But not too far, as Old Oak Common Lane will be on the left side of that line, and ideally not over four lines. It’s the first four word station name, if numbers and symbols don’t count.

 

[BrianW]

Optimism encourages original cost estimates to be low, too low, in order to get approval. tendering provcesses also encourage low bids, or you don't winthe contract. 'The system' encourages such 'games' to be played. Similarly to win local and political support. 'Add-ons' of possibly lightly used connections would likely have scuppered the wholer project. OOC is iteslef a 'compromise' to connect to Heathrow for the fraction of passengers estiamated to want to gewt to Heathrow from Birmingham and the North. Heathrow existed without any rail connection for years- the closest was Hounslow West on the Piccadilly Line.
Many people walk many metres at Heathrow just to get to or from the Gate to exit, and futher to the platform ...
There's no shortage of vanity projects in the queue for the magic money tree, as well as worthy candidates for funding. Anyone for higher taxes?


In relation to the kind of (excessive?) distance people may walk from one platform (or station?) to another, I have started a reltaed thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/longest-platform-platform-interchange.284708/#post-7244980

If it's possible to estimate the distance (or time taken- with or without luggage/ infirmity) that may help further illuminate the discussions ... Thanks

Some of the replies on the 'longest platform to platform' thread seem to suggest that some folk already make long interchanges elsewhere, whether happily or reluctantly, so there may be hope yet for more interchange possibilities at Old Oak, if not any time soon.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Tbf, if you are doing a station over the top of HS2 it needs to be designed in from the off.

Yes, but that's the point many of us have been making for a long time. It's alarming and infuriating that experienced professionals failed to notice something that was glaringly obvious years ago to numerous amateurs whose only qualification is a blend of common sense and experience in using public transport in London.

 

[Zomboid]

I suppose it's possible that the idea was considered and then a decision was taken to not do absolutely everything that could conceivably be done and hang the expense.

A longish walk (which will presumably include no mandatory stairs) to reach the overground isn't the end of the world. Not perfect, but nothing is.

If the magic money tree was bearing fruit then the interchange with the Central Line is pretty non-existent and I'd be throwing cash in that direction rather than at the overground.

 

[BrianW]

I suppose it's possible that the idea was considered and then a decision was taken to not do absolutely everything that could conceivably be done and hang the expense.

A longish walk (which will presumably include no mandatory stairs) to reach the overground isn't the end of the world. Not perfect, but nothing is.

If the magic money tree was bearing fruit then the interchange with the Central Line is pretty non-existent and I'd be throwing cash in that direction rather than at the overground.

I wonder what 'market' would actually be served by recognised 'connections' or 'interchange' between HS2/GWR at OOC and possibilities on the North London or West London or Dudding Hill lines, or at Willesden Junction, or North Acton on the Central Line? Rather few I think, although I must recognise that the development of the Mildmay Line from the North London Line as part of the London Oveground has transformed travel opportunities thereabouts.

Ealing Broadway (on the Central Line) can be reached from OOC by Elizabeth Line, as can much of Central London, or by 'staying on the HS2 train' to Euston, and tube, bus or walking from there or Paddington, with no recourse to the magic money tree. QED?

 

[Zomboid]

Ealing Broadway (on the Central Line) can be reached from OOC by Elizabeth Line, as can much of Central London, or by 'staying on the HS2 train' to Euston, and tube, bus or walking from there or Paddington, with no recourse to the magic money tree. QED

Good point, I hadn't considered the wider picture.

I guess I was thinking of a HS2/ Central interchange, but Crossrail is really a Central Line relief line in a lot of ways so that interchange will handle most of what a Central interchange would, plus North Acton isn't a ridiculous distance from where the new overground stations would be.

Plus if the Chiltern line runs to OOC then that will relieve the West Ruislip branch WRT OOC. Doubly so if that includes a station at Greenford (that might be one for the tr£€).

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but that's the point many of us have been making for a long time. It's alarming and infuriating that experienced professionals failed to notice something that was glaringly obvious years ago to numerous amateurs whose only qualification is a blend of common sense and experience in using public transport in London.

Perhaps the experienced professionals carefully assessed it, but it was decided (by politicians, remember) not to proceed for perfectly good reasons that you are not aware of the detail?

 

[itfcfan]

Perhaps the experienced professionals carefully assessed it, but it was decided (by politicians, remember) not to proceed for perfectly good reasons that you are not aware of the detail?

Yes - that reminds me of this London Reconnections article from 2014 references earlier plans with a deck above the GWR/Crossrail platforms for both NLL & WLL Overground platforms:
Old Oak Common: Part 3 – Looking Over the Fence

I wonder what 'market' would actually be served by recognised 'connections' or 'interchange' between HS2/GWR at OOC and possibilities on the North London or West London or Dudding Hill lines, or at Willesden Junction, or North Acton on the Central Line? Rather few I think, although I must recognise that the development of the Mildmay Line from the North London Line as part of the London Oveground has transformed travel opportunities thereabouts.

Ealing Broadway (on the Central Line) can be reached from OOC by Elizabeth Line, as can much of Central London, or by 'staying on the HS2 train' to Euston, and tube, bus or walking from there or Paddington, with no recourse to the magic money tree. QED?

An interchange at OOC between NLL/WLL and GWR/Crossrail would be transformational for lots of travel within London (and also extend the catchment areas for easy access to GWR/HS2 well into South-West & North London).

To give some simple examples. I live in West Ealing - getting to large areas of North-West / North London is surprisingly difficult by public transport. Most options involve going into central London, changing to a different rail/tube line and going back out - often taking around an hour each way. The NLL Overground line from Acton Central is only 3 miles away and the journey to lots of North-West / North London is only 15~30mins from there. However, the 3 miles from here to Acton Central is a pain on public transport. A bus is the most direct option, but involves more time walking than on the bus so adds ~40mins. A connection at OOC (even with a ~500m interchange) would lead to many journeys like this avoiding central London (and to be honest, make a lot of destinations more practical for frequent journeys). But probably bigger than that impact is for people travelling from NLL/WLL onto Crossrail. I have a friend who lives in South Acton. They currently have a longish walk to Acton Town on the Piccadilly Line for most of their journeys. They are very keen for a NLL station to be built at/near OOC as they intend to switch many of their journeys to travel via OOC and onto Crossrail.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Perhaps the experienced professionals carefully assessed it, but it was decided (by politicians, remember) not to proceed for perfectly good reasons that you are not aware of the detail?

Perhaps indeed, but can you confirm that a detailed analysis of the costs, feasibility and advantages of a combined station was submitted to both senior civil servants at DfT and to TfL, and that politicians were either advised that the idea made no sense or were advised that it did make sense but nevertheless decided not to proceed? I don't remember any debate by politicians about this.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps indeed, but can you confirm that a detailed analysis of the costs, feasibility and advantages of a combined station was submitted to both senior civil servants at DfT and to TfL, and that politicians were either advised that the idea made no sense or were advised that it did make sense but nevertheless decided not to proceed? I don't remember any debate by politicians about this.

I can’t confirm or deny.

But I can confirm that there is much decided by politicians without the decision being debated in public.

 

[BrianW]

I can’t confirm or deny.

But I can confirm that there is much decided by politicians without the decision being debated in public.

Surely politicians need to be able to decide matters without a fully costed set of viable alternatives, which would cost money to liitle or no effect. Do they need a 'democratic mandate to purchase a paper clip? Similarly cannot advisors/ cvil servants be expected to advise professionally/ without bias, while perhaps recognising such politicalpositions/biases as may be apparent through manifestos / statements/ the economic/ political situation? Politicians have a right to make what a sceptic may regard as making no sense, and to be found to have been wrong in the fullness of time. BTW, I know I am always right, clearly

 

[Horizon22]

Really dumb question...

Has anyone had a go at placing Old Oak Common and old Oak Common Lane on the London Rail and Tube Map?

I know it's not geographically representative, but the placing of Willesden Junction on that map relative to East and North Acton - in reality only a mile or so apart - gives a false impression of the locations!

Lancaster Gate and Paddington would like to have a word!

The tube map has never been an accurate geographic representation.

If the magic money tree was bearing fruit then the interchange with the Central Line is pretty non-existent and I'd be throwing cash in that direction rather than at the overground.

I don't think Central line interchange is necessary considering the Central line is accessible from the local area (North Acton), Ealing Broadway and at several points along the Elizabeth line.

The Overground is more reasonable considering it serves different directions & destinations.

Yes - that reminds me of this London Reconnections article from 2014 references earlier plans with a deck above the GWR/Crossrail platforms for both NLL & WLL Overground platforms:
Old Oak Common: Part 3 – Looking Over the Fence

View attachment 178420



To give some simple examples. I live in West Ealing - getting to large areas of North-West / North London is surprisingly difficult by public transport. Most options involve going into central London, changing to a different rail/tube line and going back out - often taking around an hour each way. The NLL Overground line from Acton Central is only 3 miles away and the journey to lots of North-West / North London is only 15~30mins from there. However, the 3 miles from here to Acton Central is a pain on public transport. A bus is the most direct option, but involves more time walking than on the bus so adds ~40mins. A connection at OOC (even with a ~500m interchange) would lead to many journeys like this avoiding central London (and to be honest, make a lot of destinations more practical for frequent journeys). But probably bigger than that impact is for people travelling from NLL/WLL onto Crossrail. I have a friend who lives in South Acton. They currently have a longish walk to Acton Town on the Piccadilly Line for most of their journeys. They are very keen for a NLL station to be built at/near OOC as they intend to switch many of their journeys to travel via OOC and onto Crossrail.

Definitely true. NW London (somewhere like Wembley) is surprisely difficult to get to without multiple buses or a change onto the Piccadilly line somewhere like Acton Town or Ealing Common (which still involves a few changes and going back on yourself). Bus straight down the Uxbridge Road, but it's not the fastest.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I can’t confirm or deny.

But I can confirm that there is much decided by politicians without the decision being debated in public.

Thank you.

So we don't know by how much each party is to blame. We do know that the whole HS2 project was debated by politicians at great length and that the idea of a unified station/transport hub at Old Oak Common seems to have been left out of the argument even by those opposed to the project. We also know that the idea was discussed by Londoners interested in public transport: the above mentioned London Reconnections article being a good example.

So, people at the centre of the HS2 decision-making process did not take notice of what was being debated by enthusiasts and did not recognise that the idea should be included when drawing up detailed plans for the project.

 

[Zomboid]

I think Euston is a big part of the story. The initial idea was that OOC and Euston would both serve the arrival and departure stations for "London", and there are several radial routes converging at Euston from a lot of the areas served by the NLL. So it would be reasonable to expect that passengers from Highbury for example would pick up HS2 Euston via the Victoria line, and the NLL to OOC connection wouldn't be so important.

With the semi cancellation of Euston, OOC is much more important and perhaps getting a better interchange between the NLL and WLL is something that would have been put into the mix and accounted for had that been the original intent.

How much of HS2s Euston could you buy for the cost of knocking over half of Acton to connect both NLL and WLL to OOC? I'd guess a non-neglegible proportion.

There's also the actual cancellation of the non-WCML parts of HS2 (there might be hope for HS2 reaching Crewe one day, but I doubt my kids will live to see it going to Leeds). Again, if OOC was the departure point for Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield etc, then it would need to be bigger, but without that traffic it wouldn't justify so much work to the surrounding connections, those people still need Kings Cross St Pancras.

 

[SynthD]

So, people at the centre of the HS2 decision-making process did not take notice of what was being debated by enthusiasts and did not recognise that the idea should be included when drawing up detailed plans for the project.

As a crayonista myself, I hope they continue to not take notice. You may need to narrow down who they are, as the pronoun appears to switch from politicians to industry.

 

[Bald Rick]

So, people at the centre of the HS2 decision-making process did not take notice of what was being debated by enthusiasts and did not recognise that the idea should be included when drawing up detailed plans for the project.

I didn’t say ‘they’ did not take notice.

If decision makers included everything being debated by enthusiasts in their detailed plans, there would be would an awful lot of taxpayers’ money spent on proposals that were going to be very, very poor value for money. There’s really no point getting cross about stuff like this.

 

[dosxuk]

So, people at the centre of the HS2 decision-making process did not take notice of what was being debated by enthusiasts and did not recognise that the idea should be included when drawing up detailed plans for the project.

How do you know they didn't take notice? All that is in the public domain is what the final options and what was decided - that does not mean that other options have not been discussed and discounted. One of the hard parts of any large project is there has to be things that are cut - people always want more - and the decision of where that cut off line lies can be the difference between a successful project, one that underdelivers or one that fails to complete.

Besides, much of what enthusiasts come up with is unworkable nonsense, with little regard for real world constraints like time, space or money. If every little "oh, this makes sense" option that has been posted about HS2 was included, it would have been so complicated, and so expensive as to make it undeliverable.

 

[CW2]

Thank you.

So we don't know how much each party is to blame. We do know that the whole HS2 project was debated by politicians at great length and that the idea of a unified station/transport hub at Old Oak Common seems to have been left out of the argument even by those opposed to the project. We also know that the idea was discussed by Londoners interested in public transport: the above mentioned London Reconnections article being a good example.

So, people at the centre of the HS2 decision-making process did not take notice of what was being debated by enthusiasts and did not recognise that the idea should be included when drawing up detailed plans for the project.

Permit me to shine a little light onto this subject.

When first considered, OOC station was planned to be on either Wormwood Scrubs or at the former Eurostar depot location south of the GWML. I suggested that the best location would be on the site of the Heathrow Express maintenance facility, within the OOC depot boundary, and adjacent to the GWML. That was the plan which was eventually adopted, and is currently under construction.

I was strongly in favour of providing greater connectivity to OOC, given the proximity of the NLL, WLL, and GC/GW joint line, plus Underground lines. However the prevailing philosophy within HS2 at that time was to build as separate and discrete a route as possible, maximising the ability for HS2 trains to run long distances as fast as possible without any interfaces with the existing network causing them to slow down. So my attempts to make OOC a grand West London Interchange Hub were ideologically opposed within the HS2 project, not least because of the additional costs at a time when the budget was under heavy scrutiny.

So it wasn't through lack of effort, lack of imagination, or a shortage of crayons, that caused OOC to be the compromise that it currently is. I do hope the eventual end product may offer greater connectivity in due course.

 

[BrianW]

Contributions to the thread I originated regarding distances passengers might cover to 'make a connection', show some quite long connections and indicate a high degree of commitment .

I note the varied contributions of a range of contributors here from those that 'doubt the wisdom' of decision-makers and their advisers, and those who seek to 'throw light' on the matter. Both are needed, and valued. Thank you Rail Forum.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I didn’t say ‘they’ did not take notice.

If decision makers included everything being debated by enthusiasts in their detailed plans, there would be would an awful lot of taxpayers’ money spent on proposals that were going to be very, very poor value for money. There’s really no point getting cross about stuff like this.

No-one has ever suggested that every silly "crayonist" idea should be taken seriously. The idea of a unified transport hub is obviously not silly. It now, very late in the day, is being taken up by TfL.

How do you know they didn't take notice? All that is in the public domain is what the final options and what was decided - that does not mean that other options have not been discussed and discounted. One of the hard parts of any large project is there has to be things that are cut - people always want more - and the decision of where that cut off line lies can be the difference between a successful project, one that underdelivers or one that fails to complete.

Besides, much of what enthusiasts come up with is unworkable nonsense, with little regard for real world constraints like time, space or money. If every little "oh, this makes sense" option that has been posted about HS2 was included, it would have been so complicated, and so expensive as to make it undeliverable.

I'm sorry but this is a very feeble counter-argument. We are not discussing other idiotic ideas that make no sense.

The facts on the table are clear. It was evident from the outset to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of how Londoners use public transport that a new station at Old Oak Common used by HS2, the Elizabeth Line and GWR would become a major public transport hub which people from many parts of the Greater London Area would need to access. Facilitating this adequately was not incorporated into the original plans for Old Oak Common Station. Now TfL have woken up to the idea that a connecting station on the North London Line makes sense. No-one, not railway professionals, not civil servants, not politicians, not railway journalists, not enthusiasts in this forum, absolutely no-one has suggested that TfL's new decision is foolish. Therefore it is legitimate to ask why this decision was not reached years earlier.

If "decision makers" did take notice of what the great unwashed were suggesting and rejected the idea, they got it wrong! If they didn't even analyse the idea, they got it wrong! If they acknowledged the merits of the idea but felt it was too expensive to include, they got it wrong!

So, who were the decision makers? When I blamed railway professionals for this mistake, it was pointed out that politicians make the final decisions. I have questioned if politicians received appropriate advice and it seems no-one knows. As we cannot apportion blame with any precision, we also can not absolve anyone from responsibility. What we can say with confidence is that it would have been better and probably cheaper to have planned from the outset for a major transport hub with links to the West London Line, The North London Line and the Chiltern Main Line.

Permit me to shine a little light onto this subject.

When first considered, OOC station was planned to be on either Wormwood Scrubs or at the former Eurostar depot location south of the GWML. I suggested that the best location would be on the site of the Heathrow Express maintenance facility, within the OOC depot boundary, and adjacent to the GWML. That was the plan which was eventually adopted, and is currently under construction.

I was strongly in favour of providing greater connectivity to OOC, given the proximity of the NLL, WLL, and GC/GW joint line, plus Underground lines. However the prevailing philosophy within HS2 at that time was to build as separate and discrete a route as possible, maximising the ability for HS2 trains to run long distances as fast as possible without any interfaces with the existing network causing them to slow down. So my attempts to make OOC a grand West London Interchange Hub were ideologically opposed within the HS2 project, not least because of the additional costs at a time when the budget was under heavy scrutiny.

So it wasn't through lack of effort, lack of imagination, or a shortage of crayons, that caused OOC to be the compromise that it currently is. I do hope the eventual end product may offer greater connectivity in due course.

Thank you very much for this. It throws much light on the subject.

 

[Snow1964]

A new drone video of Old Oak Common and Victoria box has just been uploaded to web.
Looks like some of the surface level platform areas are now taking shape

 

[Zomboid]

No-one has ever suggested that every silly "crayonist" idea should be taken seriously. The idea of a unified transport hub is obviously not silly. It now, very late in the day, is being taken up by TfL.


I'm sorry but this is a very feeble counter-argument. We are not discussing other idiotic ideas that make no sense.

The facts on the table are clear. It was evident from the outset to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of how Londoners use public transport that a new station at Old Oak Common used by HS2, the Elizabeth Line and GWR would become a major public transport hub which people from many parts of the Greater London Area would need to access. Facilitating this adequately was not incorporated into the original plans for Old Oak Common Station. Now TfL have woken up to the idea that a connecting station on the North London Line makes sense. No-one, not railway professionals, not civil servants, not politicians, not railway journalists, not enthusiasts in this forum, absolutely no-one has suggested that TfL's new decision is foolish. Therefore it is legitimate to ask why this decision was not reached years earlier.

If "decision makers" did take notice of what the great unwashed were suggesting and rejected the idea, they got it wrong! If they didn't even analyse the idea, they got it wrong! If they acknowledged the merits of the idea but felt it was too expensive to include, they got it wrong!

So, who were the decision makers? When I blamed railway professionals for this mistake, it was pointed out that politicians make the final decisions. I have questioned if politicians received appropriate advice and it seems no-one knows. As we cannot apportion blame with any precision, we also can not absolve anyone from responsibility. What we can say with confidence is that it would have been better and probably cheaper to have planned from the outset for a major transport hub with links to the West London Line, The North London Line and the Chiltern Main Line.


Thank you very much for this. It throws much light on the subject.

I remember reading articles way back before HS2 was approved about combining the overground stations in the area to a single one at OOC, so it would seem pretty likely that the idea was considered at the earlier stages and ruled out, probably on the basis of the colossal expense that doing so would incur.

Now OOC is going to be a more important station than originally intended so the question surrounding doing more to the interchange has changed, so no shock if the answer has also changed.

 

[Tobberz]

It certainly strikes me that, even if *all* the Overground options cannot be combined, at least OOC Lane (Mildmay/NLL) and OOC Victoria Road (West London Orbital) ought to be one single station.

From a layman's view, they are right next to each other and I can't see why they can't be integrated. Perhaps there are good reasons, though.

 

[Yindee8191]

Having passed by the site today, there are OHLE masts being installed for the new GWML/EL alignment. Unfortunately didn’t get a picture but good to see more progress.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A new drone video of Old Oak Common and Victoria box has just been uploaded to web.
Looks like some of the surface level platform areas are now taking shape

Another great overview of the scale of activity and with GWML stn under construction making good progress

 

[D365]

Was there ever an intention for travelator links to be provided between HS2, Old Oak Common Lane and Hythe Road? In my mind that would surely be the best possible compromise to integrate the existing and future London Overground lines.

 

[Bald Rick]

as there ever an intention for travelator links to be provided between HS2, Old Oak Common Lane and Hythe Road?

No!

 

[MarkyT]

No!

I see Hythe Rd station as being mainly about putting the future redevelopment of its immediate surroundings on the LO map, and the link to the mainline/HS2 station is important to conveniently connect those developments to the mainline station. It's very long as an interchange however, and I doubt huge numbers will use it for that purpose. For the WLL to serve OOC better, I suggest extending a proportion (say 4tph) of an expanded service on that line round through Willesden Junction low level to terminate at Old Oak Common Lane. The remaining 4 tph would run via Hythe Rd and continue on the NLL as now. A low level platform at Willesden Jn might be included so all WLL trains could call there. It would create a connection between the WLL and the proposed WLO. The OOC Lane station is a lot closer to the HS2 concourse, and the intervening area will be part of the transport hub, including a large bus terminal. I hope at least a partially covered way of some sort can be created through this area. It will be ~300m concourse to concourse, not an unreasonable walk for interchange, shorter than a HS2 train, and some central London tube passageways. Admittedly, a good distance for a short moving walkway over at least part of the way, but I doubt it would stack up. I think a walking interchange, with mobility assistance and luggage trolleys available over the wider site for those who need it, is a more realistic solution.