HST cab protection

[Falcon1200]

Two things here, one we're hearing that Network Rail were informed of the tree 10 minutes before the accident. Two we're hearing that trains were running at linespeed.

That will no doubt be fully investigated, however the key factor is when NR Control received advice of the tree, not necessarily when the call was made, if indeed it was 10 minutes before the collision.

I believe the comment refers to the 'Emergency Line' - which I assumed would be 999.

Which would not of course connect the caller with NR, but (in this case) the Police, who would then advise NR via their dedicated Emergency Number.

However good the communication was it clearly wasn’t good enough.

That remains to be seen.

Network Rail have an Emergency Line too.

NR Scotland have a dedicated line for the Emergency Services to use, this activates a siren in Control and will therefore be answered immediately, at the expense of other calls if need be. For this reason the number is not given to the general public, because it also becomes a general moan-about-the-railway and passenger enquiry line.

If a phone call is recieved saying there’s a tree on the line you shut the line and then investigate it.

Or instruct the Driver of next train to proceed at caution and examine the line.

1. Scotrail/NR are now very quick to impose speed restrictions in bad weather along vulnerable stretches of line, essentially trains are driven on line of sight. If the train was operating at line speed, we need to ask why.

Yellow weather warning as opposed to Amber or Red?

 

[a_c_skinner]

The vegetation needs clearing. If nothing else it will make autumn easier.

 

[Annetts key]

I’ll wager a bet that had yesterdays incident happened in darkness rendering the Driver unable to take evasive action within the cab, they wouldn’t be here now.

The modern LED headlamps that are fitted to class 43 power cars are quite effective. So, I don't think it's as clear cut as you imply. Just because it's nighttime or dark does not mean that a driver is driving completely blind.

As I have said before, the limitations of the cabs of class 43 power cars were already known. There is nothing new here in that respect. And as others have said, there are plenty of other trains that also were not built to provide the level of crash protection that is being talked about.

Are people who have a bee in their bonnet about this proposing to immediately withdraw hundreds of trains which don't comply with current standards and affect thousands of train services?

The class 43 met the requirements at the time this type was designed. Most changes to standards and requirements are not retrospective because of the costs involved.

If all railway equipment had to meet all current standards and requirements, we would be in a right pickle.

Maybe we should bring back steam hauled trains, they after all have a large iron or steel water boiler between the front and the cab...

Or maybe we should concentrate on the root of the problem: line side trees and vegetation, or rather, the presence of it.

 

[boabt]

I want them immediately stopped. Appreciate ScotRail aren’t going to listen to me, but I’d rather they were removed immediately and we took the hit with reduced services etc until we got replacements, whether they were off lease 170s, 158s, 222s etc whenever they became available.

As someone who commutes daily on HSTs on this very route, I'm a little bit miffed that you'd rather make it impossible for me to get to work each day.

We would all love a brand spanking new fleet of InterCity trains, but maybe some of you have noticed that the Scottish Government and ergo ScotRail simply don't have the money to make your fantasies come true.

Incidentally, I was on this route yesterday morning in both directions - before this happened - and all the trains were delayed and we were going at nothing like line speed. I don't know if speeds increased afterwards. Was honestly surprised any trains were still running - was probably the worst wind and rain I've ever commuted in.

 

[John Bishop]

The modern LED headlamps that are fitted to class 43 power cars are quite effective. So, I don't think it's as clear cut as you imply. Just because it's nighttime or dark does not mean that a driver is driving completely blind.

Well that gave me a chuckle! You’re clearly not an HST driver for Scotrail are you?! Most headlights in the HSTs I’ve driven could be described as anything but effective! Most of them are rubbish and/ or pointing into the night sky and you can barely see 6 feet in front of you. They will offer absolutely no notice of any obstruction on the line ahead. I say again, had this been at night, this would have been a grave outcome for the driver.

Class 158s have suffered major damage in the past when striking trees leading to the driver sustaining injury. And as others have pointed out there is no space behind the driver's seat to shelter as the driver did in this case. The more pressing issue here is lineside vegetation.

How can you possibly consider a driver‘s seat a “place to shelter”? It would offer next to no protection against an object hitting it.

 

[boabt]

Well just as well you don’t have to sit up front in the face of danger then! What a selfish attitude to take.

Folk wanting to immediately withdraw a huge chunk of Scotland's railway fleet with all the impact that would have. With no possibility of it being replaced anytime soon. Because a train was hit by a tree.

I'd rather be selfish than hysterical.

 

[chuff chuff]

Well that gave me a chuckle! You’re clearly not an HST driver for Scotrail are you?! Most headlights in the HSTs I’ve driven could be described as anything but effective! Most of them are rubbish and/ or pointing into the night sky and you can barely see 6 feet in front of you. They will offer absolutely no notice of any obstruction on the line ahead. I say again, had this been at night, this would have been a grave outcome for the driver.

Lol indeed,even with good headlights at that point the tree lying across the line would have merged into the background and would have been no time for evasive action.
I doubt some us less nimble ones would have made out of the road in time.
I believe the crew involved were a fairly inexperienced crew so hope they both alright.

 

[John Bishop]

Folk wanting to immediately withdraw a huge chunk of Scotland's railway fleet with all the impact that would have. With no possibility of it being replaced anytime soon. Because a train was hit by a tree.

I'd rather be selfish than hysterical.

Let’s be realistic here. The HST fleet is not a huge chunk of the fleet. We’re talking about up to 10 sets on a daily basis given their average availability on a daily basis sometimes a lot less. With a few tweaks to the timetable, the 158/170 fleet could pick up the slack without any major drama.

 

[12LDA28C]

How can you possibly consider a driver‘s seat a “place to shelter”? It would offer next to no protection against an object hitting it.

And yet it seemed to do the job in this particular instance, did it not? Rather less space in the cab of a 158 meaning the driver would have had to escape into the saloon as his only option.

 

[380101]

Aslef is being completely ridiculous and once again pushes one side of an issue for the sake of making them look good meanwhile ignoring how the vegetation and trees was clearly over grown and too close to the line

Its clear that vegetation management or lack off played a big part in what happened today. Some responsibly has to fall on network rail otherwise other accidents similar to this are going to end up happening to other drivers in other classes of rolling stock.

To blame it solely on the design of the HST is in my view ignorant and ignores a big issue here. Why did this line have so much vegetation and trees so close to the railway line?

Having seen communications from ASLEF this morning, I can assure you that ASLEF have lineside vegetation management at the top of their agenda in Scotland, and talks have already been going on regarding the issue.

It might even surprise plenty of "armchair" railway experts on this forum, but ASLEF continually take active participation in industry talks about all sorts of safety issues on the railway and they actively campaign to improve lineside vegetation management, track maintenance etc etc.

 

[Davester50]

Well I'm in them on a daily basis and have already said on the hit taken yesterday I would rather take my chances in a 158/170.
I'm probably one of the few who would rather drive an hst to the others so I'm not anti hst but you seem unwilling to see what's in front of your eyes.

Storm Arwen tree strike in November 2021 with a 170, the type Transport Scotland thought weren't good enough.
HSTs for ScotRail were never a great idea in the first place, and can easily see why they need gone ASAP.

 

[muz379]

Having seen communications from ASLEF this morning, I can assure you that ASLEF have lineside vegetation management at the top of their agenda in Scotland, and talks have already been going on regarding the issue.

It might even surprise plenty of "armchair" railway experts on this forum, but ASLEF continually take active participation in industry talks about all sorts of safety issues on the railway and they actively campaign to improve lineside vegetation management, track maintenance etc etc.

Precisely

Ofc there is also a difference in influence they can have through internal bargaining procedures at the TOC's where they have members , and the influence they can have through engaging in industry wide forums . That isn't to say it isnt worth engaging in the latter but naturally you will be more vocal about/in arenas that you can have direct impact and get quicker results .

 

[bramling]

Class 158s have suffered major damage in the past when striking trees leading to the driver sustaining injury. And as others have pointed out there is no space behind the driver's seat to shelter as the driver did in this case. The more pressing issue here is lineside vegetation.

What do we actually expect to be done about vegetation though? For some reason there seems to be a view in this country that touching trees is sacrilege, even those that are clearly inappropriately placed. So whatever NR do is going to be wrong to someone. Then there’s the plenty of trees which aren’t owned by NR because they are outside the railway boundary.

Whichever way one looks at this, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify the continued use of HST power cars especially when there is or about to be other more modern stock going spare. The 175s and 222s for a start.

I love HSTs as much as anyone, but a time has to come when we have to acknowledge that the design of the power cars has a significant shortcoming, namely that it seems to provide essentially no structural strength at all in terms of resisting impacts. As far as the ScotRail HSTs go they haven’t exactly crowned themselves operationally either, so it isn’t even like they’re offering something absolutely wonderful to the end-user.

I wouldn’t advocate immediate removal from service, but equally the industry seems to have its head well and truly buried in the sand on this. There needs to be an acknowledgement that keeping these trains going essentially indefinitely just isn’t good enough.

 

[boabt]

Let’s be realistic here. The HST fleet is not a huge chunk of the fleet. We’re talking about up to 10 sets on a daily basis given their average availability on a daily basis sometimes a lot less. With a few tweaks to the timetable, the 158/170 fleet could pick up the slack without any major drama.

There's nothing realistic about that.

 

[12LDA28C]

What do we actually expect to be done about vegetation though? For some reason there seems to be a view in this country that touching trees is sacrilege, even those that are clearly inappropriately placed. So whatever NR do is going to be wrong to someone. Then there’s the plenty of trees which aren’t owned by NR because they are outside the railway boundary.

NR's only concern should be the safe operation of the railway. The opinions of tree-hugging conservation groups shouldn't come into it. Any trees that are outside the railway boundary but have the potential to fall onto railway land should be considered potential hazards and dealt with accordingly. Of course this won't happen as NR seem to have enough trouble managing their own infrastructure, never mind anyone else's.

 

[John Bishop]

There's nothing realistic about that.

Really? I’m ready to hear why not!

NR's only concern should be the safe operation of the railway. The opinions of tree-hugging conservation groups shouldn't come into it. Any trees that are outside the railway boundary but have the potential to fall onto railway land should be considered potential hazards and dealt with accordingly. Of course this won't happen as NR seem to have enough trouble managing their own infrastructure, never mind anyone else's.

For that I’m in complete agreement. It’s time to get serious about the issue, and fast!

 

[aaronspence]

Really? I’m ready to hear why not!

As a frequent user of Edi - Dundee service, having them be cancelled, then a 2 carriage train turn up which then is overcroweded is fairly normal sadly. Your wanting to take what 100 carriages out of their fleet? Thats not realistic.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that any suggestions, proposals, ideas etc to change the status quo, should be posted on the Speculative Discussion section please.

 

[Wolfie]

It in unlikely that Scotrail will bin the HST's before their lease is up.

In which case they may have a very serious issue when ASLEF refuse to drive them.

 

[John Bishop]

As a frequent user of Edi - Dundee service, having them be cancelled, then a 2 carriage train turn up which then is overcroweded is fairly normal sadly. Your wanting to take what 100 carriages out of their fleet? Thats not realistic.

But its not 100 carriages in reality is it? Anyway, this is getting off topic.

 

[Wolfie]

Yeah scrap those HST’s! Get aslef to make the drivers strike!….and replace them with what exactly? Many members of this forum are quick to remind people that there isn’t a ‘spare group of trains’ just sitting around.
Everyone is quick to point out the failures (of yes, I agree a well outdated train) but where is the replacement? Is Scotland just expected to have a limited rail service because of a few freak accidents?. NR should have placed measures in place to mitigate, there is no prevention apart from not running trains, and that’s a can of worms I don’t want to think about

Frankly that ain't ASLEF's concern. If l was a train driver l wouldn't even consider driving the antiquated old junk. I value my life too much.

 

[Annetts key]

Well that gave me a chuckle! You’re clearly not an HST driver for Scotrail are you?! Most headlights in the HSTs I’ve driven could be described as anything but effective! Most of them are rubbish and/ or pointing into the night sky and you can barely see 6 feet in front of you. They will offer absolutely no notice of any obstruction on the line ahead. I say again, had this been at night, this would have been a grave outcome for the driver.

If you don't feel safe driving a class 43 power car, use the safe-stop or work-safe (or whatever it's called where you are) procedure.

 

[Wolfie]

NR's only concern should be the safe operation of the railway. The opinions of tree-hugging conservation groups shouldn't come into it. Any trees that are outside the railway boundary but have the potential to fall onto railway land should be considered potential hazards and dealt with accordingly. Of course this won't happen as NR seem to have enough trouble managing their own infrastructure, never mind anyone else's.

Interesting perspective. Suggest that you look at the relevant legislation which sets out exactly why its utter rubbish.

 

[Krokodil]

I’ll wager a bet that had yesterdays incident happened in darkness rendering the Driver unable to take evasive action within the cab, they wouldn’t be here now.

They were only sufficiently protected because they had time to get behind the seat. I definitely wouldn't count that as "sufficient".

It's certainly part of the question absolutely - but it can't be the only question. As I said above, there should be multiple protections against incidents like this - and they all failed. I'm sure ASLEF will come out swinging against the vegetation issue as well.

It should be the main concern. Even if you have a unit built to the latest standards with near-guaranteed protection for staff and passengers a tree is going to do some serious damage which will have the set out of action for some time. The catch-all solution is to not have the tree fall on the line in the first place.

You've confused the likelihood of occurence with the level of risk. Are you a self-described statistician?

I've never claimed to be one. Multiply the likelihood with the severity and you get a measure of the level of risk.

Let’s be realistic here. The HST fleet is not a huge chunk of the fleet. We’re talking about up to 10 sets on a daily basis given their average availability on a daily basis sometimes a lot less. With a few tweaks to the timetable, the 158/170 fleet could pick up the slack without any major drama.

TfW descended into chaos when an even smaller number of 197s was withdrawn.

In which case they may have a very serious issue when ASLEF refuse to drive them.

If. Unless you've seen the communication other posters have described as "balanced" and spotted a promise to black the HSTs.

 

[Elecman]

How do you propose that Network Rail fells every tree even on its own land ( cannot legally do anything about trees no matter how tall that are on private land)? If you hadn’t noticed NRs maintenance budget had been cut to the bone. Unless of course you think the government and Treasury will give an unlimited budget to NR to recruit sufficient off track staff to deal with all the extra costs of lineside vegetation / drainage/ land slip caused by decades of insufficient funding for these items?

 

[12LDA28C]

Interesting perspective. Suggest that you look at the relevant legislation which sets out exactly why its utter rubbish.

Really? You think it's acceptable for lineside vegetation to encroach on the railway more and more unchecked over time then yes? If that's your view then that certainly is utter rubbish. If a change in legislation is required to reduce the risk of this type of incident then so be it.

Frankly that ain't ASLEF's concern. If l was a train driver l wouldn't even consider driving the antiquated old junk. I value my life too much.

It seems that if you were a train driver you'd be too scared to ever leave the depot just because of the extremely slim chance you hit an obstruction on the line. Good job you're not a driver then.

 

[Newtraveller58]

Let’s be realistic here. The HST fleet is not a huge chunk of the fleet. We’re talking about up to 10 sets on a daily basis given their average availability on a daily basis sometimes a lot less. With a few tweaks to the timetable, the 158/170 fleet could pick up the slack without any major drama.

ScotRail are already going to have to destrengthen various services to provide enough rolling stock to operate the Levenmouth branch when it opens in 2024. Taking all the HSTs out of use with no replacement is likely to result in significant overcrowding on various routes pushing people onto the much “safer” road network where people are killed every week. The HSTs should not have been brought into Scotland but that was a decision by Abellio and Transport Scotlan, ignoring advice from various rail professionals at the time.

 

[43096]

Let’s be realistic here. The HST fleet is not a huge chunk of the fleet. We’re talking about up to 10 sets on a daily basis given their average availability on a daily basis sometimes a lot less. With a few tweaks to the timetable, the 158/170 fleet could pick up the slack without any major drama.

10 sets? More like up to 15. To replace that capacity you'd need around 30 Class 158s (runing as pairs). That's a serious reduction in capacity and the only way you'd do it would be by cancelling services. of course, that would need to be for a considerable period of time, so you'd be looking at redundancies among traincrew as well. Still keen?

 

[Dan G]

Having since seen the photo the Driver was extremely fortunate, and I am glad they managed to escape without injury. But, without knowing the size of the tree involved, I'm not sure a Class 170 cab for example would have fared much better.

One of the changes to the Electrostar/Turbostar bodyshell for the Aventra was strengthening the cab to meet increased crash worthiness standards. But I think even an aluminium Turbostar would have done better than fibreglass had it been one hitting that tree.

(The underframe the Class 43 cab sits on is very strong. But the cab itself is not.)

 

[bramling]

NR's only concern should be the safe operation of the railway. The opinions of tree-hugging conservation groups shouldn't come into it. Any trees that are outside the railway boundary but have the potential to fall onto railway land should be considered potential hazards and dealt with accordingly. Of course this won't happen as NR seem to have enough trouble managing their own infrastructure, never mind anyone else's.

No disagreement from me there, however we both know it won’t happen.

ScotRail are already going to have to destrengthen various services to provide enough rolling stock to operate the Levenmouth branch when it opens in 2024. Taking all the HSTs out of use with no replacement is likely to result in significant overcrowding on various routes pushing people onto the much “safer” road network where people are killed every week. The HSTs should not have been brought into Scotland but that was a decision by Abellio and Transport Scotlan, ignoring advice from various rail professionals at the time.

There does come a point when a bad decision has been made that someone needs to take some accountability and attempt to sort the problem. Currently it seems more like a case of having taken a wrong turn and still keeping going blindly regardless.

Unless there’s stuff going on behind the scenes which no one knows about, this issue isn’t going to resolve itself, and will likely become increasingly salient as time goes on.