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Hst Damage Pic Any ideas

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yorkie

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The powercars were modified further because having them just idling the whole time was bad for the engines.
Yes

Um, no, they had two powercars back to back and used the towbar.
Erm, yes!:lol:


They're semi-fixed formation, which is not the same as fixed formation, which is what most MUs are.
Destroying your own argument I see!



So why are the 419s not locos then? They only have luggage space.
I don't know anything about 419s, I was able to get a little info on Wikipedia/TheRailwayCentre but not enough to comment.





By your logic the DVT is a loco because it only has luggage space,
I am NOT arguing that a trailer is a loco! :lol::lol::lol:

but it's not, it's classed as coaching stock, as are the rest of the mk4s. The mk4s can also be hauled by other locos. HST Mk3s cannot without either prior modification or the use of a barrier vehicle (Which, if you're going to try and say that counts, is a specially modified piece of rolling stock to enable a loco to haul rolling stock that does not have compatible couplers).
So because HST Mk3s use different couplers to conventional stock, that makes HST trains DMUs? by that logic, if you got a rake of very old carriages that predate the current standard coupling, you would argue that the old stock was MU stock because it used a non-standard coupling?


No, the HST DMB was modified so that it could be used as a stand in DVT and, IIRC, it was also to provide ETS to the Mk3s, hence at first was permenantly idling.
You've not actually answered the question!


By their logic these are all locos because they're powered, have been split and are not working in their original formations :lol:
Nope, they are quite clearly underfloor engined DMUs. Yes, there is the argument of "is a 153 a multiple unit?" well let's not go there, but the fact is it does not even closely resemble a loco and could not haul the sleeper (:lol:), but HST power cars can.
 
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43034 The Black Horse

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Um, no, they had two powercars back to back and used the towbar.

They're semi-fixed formation, which is not the same as fixed formation, which is what most MUs are.

Right,

They used the towbar when the 2 PCs did the Sleeper. The towbar is another form a coupler. Before you say otherwise, it is. It's like saying a buckeye isn't a coupler....

HST Trailers being a fixed formation is debatable... It depends what you term as 'fixed'. They can be moved around to and from other sets and they have do so. Going by your logic, Set CP02 (CDF-TAU LHCS Set) would be fixed as it stays in the same formation most of the time, like HST Trailers. HST trailers are in as much of a fixed formation as 91s and MK4s...

Powercars can haul other trains and have done so without the use or barriers. When HSTs were being tested, they hauled Mk2 coaches and IIRC (Will go and check later) were not modified.

I wonder, how many of you would call HSTs DMUs if BR never used the 253/4 classification as a lot of people use that as their back up.

One final note, 90019. Why do they have to be either? I fail to see why they must be. Come and tell me your oh so great opinion on this, please....
 

MCR247

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I personally, think a HST is just a HST.

Also, yorkie, at what location? :?
 

yorkie

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Ah, they must have disabled 'inline linking'. Sorry about that! Anyway no excuses for the "HSTs are DMUs" brigade to avoid answering the questions now ;)
 

Old Timer

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I cannot believe this is still going on ! :roll:

The definitive answer has been given several times already, but for ease of reference I will repeat it.

When introduced HSTs were treated as DEMUs. The reason for this was as follows:

1) They were designed to be operated as fixed formation sets ;
2) The power cars were not capable of working any other type of train ;
3) The vehicles could (and cannot) not be operated as part of a standard loco hauled train because they had / have different electrical wiring, and operating voltages, and thus the locomotive could not provide an ETS (Note the letters as opposed to ETH) supply to them;
4) The drawgear was then unique in being a fixed buckeye ;
5) There were (are) no buffers ;
6) The braking system is modified to be a dual two-pipe system and requires both circuits to be in use;
7) HST sets had enhanced braking pressures, which other conventional LHCS (excluding Mk4) does not have ;
8 ) The air suspension was operated from the Main Reservoir pipe ;
9) The vehicles were through-wired for train control ;
10) The whole electrical supply (ETS) for the onboard services was provided from the rear power car, which ran at a slightly faster idling speed, unlike other ETH LHCS, which uses the ETH supply to trickle charge batteries under each vehicle ;
11) None of the vehicles were equipped with lamp brackets and thus they could not convey a tail lamp ;
12) There was no compatible brake van that could be used in operational service
13) For the purposes of signalling rules and regulations, a train was allowed to proceed without a tail light provided that trainset was complete with rear power car.
14) HSTs were only permitted to assist another HST

After initial running experience, as I have already said some pages back, it was established that the fixed formation, whereby the whole trainset was maintained as one, was not working, and the whole 253/254 numbering system was abandoned. At that stage the individual power car numbers were painted on the front, in the series 43xxx.

Unlike locomotives, the HST power cars came under the control of the owning depot and were NOT under the control of the Traction Maintenance & Running Controllers in the Regional Control at York.

Although for Operating purposes, HST power cars are treated as locomotives when running either singly or in pairs, they are not true locomotives because :
a) They do not have conventional buffing gear ;
b) They do not have a PASS/GOODS brake timing changeover switch ;
c) They are equipped with enhanced braking control, which makes them incompatible with other types of rolling stock, especially wagons ;
d) They are not capable of hauling other than their train insofar as weight is concerned except in an emergency;


So the power cars are not locomotives in the established and accepted sense.

The HST vehicles are not compatible with conventional LHCS, and cannot be intermixed, thus they cannot be classified as LHCS in the true sense, and their numbering reflects this.

HSTs are treated in a separate category because they cannot multiple with other MU trains.

Class 91s are locomotives because they were designed as such and are capable of working freight trains. They also have brake changeover switches as far as I am aware from memory.

DVTs are not locomotives because they are not capable of moving under their own power. Their power supply comes from an external source.

Does clear up the continuing debate ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Explain why Sprinters have alternative speed limits to other DMUs then <D
This is solely down to their enhanced braking capabilities.
 
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yorkie

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In conclusion, HSTs are DEMUs; just because they're now not classfied as such doesn't mean they're not.
Nope, and the fact they are not classified as such is because they are not.

And I see you have again avoided the questions I asked. I wonder why! :lol::lol:

Another question (I suspect you'll avoid this one too), if GC had taken the alternative option and not coverted their Mk3s, if they had instead converted the power cars, what would you have classified GCs HSTs as then?
 

Old Timer

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To those who say HSTs are DMUs:-

Q1 What speeds can HSTs do at this location? Please give reasons for your answer:D
http://www.railsigns.co.uk/sect13page3/13_52.gif


Q2 Why does this unnecessarily say HST and DMU when just DMU is necessary according you your argument?
http://www.railsigns.co.uk/sect13page3/13_55.gif

I look forward to reading the responses <D:D

Q1 : The answer is 20 and the reason for the enhanced DMU speed is related to the weight of the vehicle. The whole purpose of the speed restriction here is related to track forces, eg, the weight of the vehicles/axle loading

Q2 : This speed is imposed to enable passenger trains formed of such trains to travel at a higher speed over a section of track compared to other types of train. In this case the better braking characteristics compared to loco hauled trains will be the guiding factor.
 

43034 The Black Horse

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In conclusion, HSTs are DEMUs; just because they're now not classfied as such doesn't mean they're not.

57s were 47s when introduced; just because they're not now not classified as such doesn't mean they're not..... :roll:


Errrm No.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I cannot believe this is still going on ! :roll:

I can because, it has always gone on and always will.... :roll: Threads like these go about in circles, time after time. It's always good to have a rant though!! :)
 

37401

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In conclusion, HSTs are DEMUs; just because they're now not classfied as such doesn't mean they're not.

no it isnt

also why are people saying HST, the HST is the name of the set cl43+mk3`s + cl43 bit like WAG CL57+ Mk2`s+ 57

oh or is the WAG a unit?....
 

37401

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Because that is partially what we are debating. Some are debating whether PCs are DMUs and some are debating whether HSTs are DMUs

They are neither, for your info... :lol:

:lol: IMO its t+t locos

my head hurts arguing this now so i thinkit its time to find something we all agree on

The Class 43 is a loco under TOPS BUT always works in multiple like a unit

the HST is a HST its neither loco nor unit
 

37401

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yes the topic title is HST damage pic any ideas not is the HST a loco or unit, the HST unit or loco debate can be settled but you have to e-mail a few depots
 

krus_aragon

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also why are people saying HST, the HST is the name of the set cl43+mk3`s + cl43 bit like WAG CL57+ Mk2`s+ 57
As an aside they haven't top-and-tailed for many months, and it's only double headed occasionaly when there's a unit switchover in progress.
 

Techniquest

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For God's sake there is SO much crap spouted on here by those who weren't even born when HSTs came into service :roll::roll::roll:

+1.

Not that most of the posters on this thread seemed to listen or understand...

Still, nice to see a few other people appear to concur with what I've already said about them being neither from flicking through the rest of this thread.
 

O L Leigh

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I believe that the main reason this argument is still going on is because a certain someone would appear to have his head so far up a certain orifice that he can't hear what other people are saying. Basically his argument seems to be "HST powercars are locos because I say so, so nerrr" and he totally ignores the in-depth technical and operational reasons why an HST powercar is not a loco. Plus he's dragging up lots of totally unrelated workings and formations in order to try and prove a point that doesn't actually address anything that's been said.

It's sad really, but unfortunately typical of the guy.

so your saying the Mk3`s are like a unit not the "power cars"?

No. I'm saying that an HST set is like an MU with powercars and trailers, just like most EMU's.

What the nay-sayers continually overlook are the technical differences between HST powercars and locos, and HST trailers and conventional LHCS. Instead they perpetuate the error that just because a conventional "T&T" formation or push-pull set looks like an HST and operates like one it makes an HST just another conventional "T&T" formation solely on the basis that you can't call 2 x Cl37's sandwiching some Mk2's an MU. This line of reasoning is nonsense by which you could just as easily classify a "Hastings" DEMU as locos and stock.

So let's apply some tests.

1) Can an HST powercar haul any train? Well no. For one thing it doesn't have conventional drawgear at either end, plus it has a non-standard braking system and non-standard ETS.

While there have been isolated instances of HST powercars hauling other trains using the emergency towbar this was generally done at great risk. The idea of the towbar is so that a stranded HST can be rescued. FGW took a huge gamble by reversing the principle so that a pair of powercars could run the sleeper. However, all this aside, the use of the towbar is strictly limited in it's application. It will be some while yet before we see them on Intermodals.

2) Can HST trailers be used in any train? Again, no. As stated above, the braking and electrical systems are non-standard compared to conventional LHCS. But even then, it is not possible to hook up just any old loco anyway because HST trailers have fixed buckeye couplers and lack buffers. This is why HST trailers require barrier vehicles when being moved by a conventional loco.

Someone made the point that this line of argument would hold that any preserved LHCS with a non-standard coupler would suddenly become an MU. Well as it happens, that's also nonsense. Firstly, I am not aware of any preserved stock that didn't have either a 3-link or screw coupler, either of which would still be perfectly compatible with modern traction. However, unlike HST trailers, even the oldest LHCS was designed to be worked by any loco. HST trailers, on the other hand, were designed to work specifically with HST powercars which is what makes them more like MU stock.

3) Does the ability to work in multiple with a conventional loco prove anything? As it happens, no it doesn't. There are plenty of examples of locos and MU's working in multiple, especially on the former Southern, but it doesn't suddenly make a 4CIG a loco. Provided that both loco and MU have compatible systems or can be modified to provide compatibility there are no reasons why their ability to work together should change anything.

Incidentally, on the GC point raised as an aside, the decision to modify LHCS to HST standard rather than modify the powercars was the only sensible decision they could take, especially in light of the reliability issues they faced. If the trailers had been left unmodified, GC would not have been able to hire-in replacement powercars to cover for any failures in their own fleet as they would have been incompatible.

O L Leigh
 
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Royston Vasey

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Excellent post O L Leigh.

Another poster alluded to the real reason for the passion behind some of the arguments for the loco + stock argument... it's the general mantra many enthusiasts hold, with some justification perhaps, that loco and stock are much loved and that way things should be, and any MUs are soulless, functional, inferior and not worth getting excited about. And the juxtaposition comes when many people's favourite train is suddenly put into the unglamorous and functional category (for very convincing technical and logical reasons) and they can't handle it!
 

yorkie

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I believe that the main reason this argument is still going on is because a certain someone would appear to have his head so far up a certain orifice that he can't hear what other people are saying. Basically his argument seems to be "HST powercars are locos because I say so, so nerrr" and he totally ignores the in-depth technical and operational reasons why an HST powercar is not a loco. Plus he's dragging up lots of totally unrelated workings and formations in order to try and prove a point that doesn't actually address anything that's been said.

It's sad really, but unfortunately typical of the guy.
If you are referring to 37401 he has actually stated in his last post that "the HST is a HST its neither loco nor unit ".

I am not sure if you are reluctantly agreeing with us that the HST is neither a loco and stock or a unit, but that it is a HST and just want to argue that it's more like a DMU than loco and stock, or if you are actually saying the HST is a DMU?

Your entire argument seems to be based on compatibility - of couplers, power supply, etc. In this respect an HST may seem like a DMU, but this is just one aspect, and if you eliminate this aspect then the entire argument is null and void.


Incidentally, on the GC point raised as an aside, the decision to modify LHCS to HST standard rather than modify the powercars was the only sensible decision they could take, especially in light of the reliability issues they faced. If the trailers had been left unmodified, GC would not have been able to hire-in replacement powercars to cover for any failures in their own fleet as they would have been incompatible.

O L Leigh
I'm not saying it hasn't happened, and I'm not saying it wasn't sensible, but I can't actually recall GC hiring in other operators powercars. If it has happened it must have been incredibly rare.

Yet GC has had to hire in complete rakes of coaches many times in the past when they had to send all their power cars to Brush (which actually made them the most reliable fleet in the country for a while after).

So, ironically, so far at least, they would probably actually have been better off converting the power cars.

But this is all beside the point, the point is not whether they should have done it (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't), but if they had then your argument that they are a DMU (or are more DMU like, not sure what you are saying) based on compatibility is then completely torn apart. The question is not "Should GC have done this" but what would your argument be if GC had done it?
 

jopsuk

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Hmm, LHCS/MU duality anyone? It depends how you look at it which it is at the time, but the truth is they're both at the same time?

As some of the examples have shown, there's many cases around the world where the "traditional" definitions of MU and Locomotive fail to work.
 

O L Leigh

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Your entire argument seems to be based on compatibility - of couplers, power supply, etc. In this respect an HST may seem like a DMU, but this is just one aspect, and if you eliminate this aspect then the entire argument is null and void.

Sorry old chap, but that is precisely the argument. If you remove this distinction then you completely blur the distinction between LHCS and MU stock and there is no difference between the two. What then stops a Cl317 trailer being LHCS? Does a Cl442 suddenly become just another fixed formation train with a loco formed up in the middle?

I'm not saying it hasn't happened, and I'm not saying it wasn't sensible, but I can't actually recall GC hiring in other operators powercars. If it has happened it must have been incredibly rare.

MML-liveried 43166 has been used to cover defective powercars (Click), and it's possible that this might not have been an isolated instance.

Yet GC has had to hire in complete rakes of coaches many times in the past when they had to send all their power cars to Brush (which actually made them the most reliable fleet in the country for a while after).

So, ironically, so far at least, they would probably actually have been better off converting the power cars.

Perhaps. However, it at least gave GC the option of only having to hire in a replacement powercar or two rather than requiring them to hire an entire train. They were then able to continue to offer the service they promised using their own trains.

But this is all beside the point, the point is not whether they should have done it (I'm not saying they should or shouldn't), but if they had then your argument that they are a DMU (or are more DMU like, not sure what you are saying) based on compatibility is then completely torn apart. The question is not "Should GC have done this" but what would your argument be if GC had done it?

Not really.

The conversion of a small number of powercars does not undermine the wider point. I have no problem with classifying some powercars as locos if they had been through a modification process (though it would depend on precisely what modifications were made).

O L Leigh
 

fgwrich

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MML-liveried 43166 has been used to cover defective powercars (Click), and it's possible that this might not have been an isolated instance.


Firstly...Interupting the thread a minute, can anyone tell me what happend to 43166? As i cant seem to find it anywhere...

Secondly...Going back to an earleir post of mine...sorry but i didnt actually know anything about the shunt up at Newton Abbot a few years ago, so please excuse me for that...And to confirm it, yes it is the power car involved at paddington/royal oak...

I was growing up through those times so being only young, i didnt know anyhting about those 2 accidents until this thrad appeard...

peace?
 
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