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HST's are insufficiently safe (apparently)

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Justin Smith

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I quite agree with you. Banning "unsafe" opening windows followed two particular fatalities. Both of these were occasioned by Network Rail failing to maintain the specified structure gauge, in both cases long term. The real issue was their inability to do so. It's a good cop-out to say that it was the train windows that were unsafe, rather than keeping the lineside trees and signal posts (in these cases) up to spec. I questioned at the time why the much-vaunted Network Measurement Train didn't measure structure gauge clearance, only to be told "that's not what it's for".
But I also think there is such a thing as personal responsibility. Put simply, you do not put your head out of the window unless you are certain there is nothing there which will knock it off. In the days when carriages had opening windows that was the abiding principle I adopted, and I never lost my head.....
 
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Meole

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Serious question for any ASLEF members from ScotRail, GWR, or CrossCountry we might have posting here. Was this decision driven by the grassroots or implemented following consultation with the local branches, or is it coming from management? The GWR drivers on WNXX don't seem too happy with it.
How do you suppose unions formulate policy ? The accident took place a couple of years ago and the union at all levels will have considered the implications upon their existing policies using the network of committees, member meetings and conference.
 

yorkie

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Serious question for any ASLEF members from ScotRail, GWR, or CrossCountry we might have posting here. Was this decision driven by the grassroots or implemented following consultation with the local branches, or is it coming from management? The GWR drivers on WNXX don't seem too happy with it.
While I can't speak for this specific union, my personal experience of unions is that they are more interested in pursuing policies that are in line with extremist ideologies and the people at the HQ are not at all interested in what their actual members think. I quit my union last year and I tried to explain to them how out of touch they were, but they were not at all interested.
 

Mordac

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How do you suppose unions formulate policy ? The accident took place a couple of years ago and the union at all levels will have considered the implications upon their existing policies using the network of committees, member meetings and conference.
Judging by mine (UCU for what it's worth), it's certainly not by consulting members on the branches.
 

Justin Smith

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While I can't speak for this specific union, my personal experience of unions is that they are more interested in pursuing policies that are in line with extremist ideologies and the people at the HQ are not at all interested in what their actual members think. I quit my union last year and I tried to explain to them how out of touch they were, but they were not at all interested.
My wife is in a union at her hospital and the rep is not interested in any problems she has. He is interested in trying to get in the house magazine and, even more so, the local media.
 

Rich McLean

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For GWR at least, it is looking at 175s to replace castle sets, with them being allocated to LA so they are at a dedicated depot to who can give the love, care and attention they need. But, it will take a lot longer than next August for that to happen. For starters, a unit would need to be released and sent to LA for fitter familisation, getting them cleared, then crew training for several depots between Penzance and Cardiff before they even appear. TfW 158s are out of the question, not likely to be available until late 2025/early 2026 for various reasons.
 

Mordac

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My wife is in a union at her hospital and the rep is not interested in any problems she has. He is interested in trying to get in the house magazine and, even more so, the local media.
Pretty much my exact experience. When I've actually brought up some issues (a change in the expenses policy they sneaked in during Covid when no one was paying attention), my union branch completely ignored me.
 

Wolfie

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Having actually worked on presenting calculated value for money for prioritising road safety improvements, I can assure you that it is readily understood.

Back to the HSTs, and it looks like we now have come up with yet another of the multiple justifications that the railway seems fixated with for withdrawing perfectly serviceable stock, and thus never being able to get adequate resources for the demand, because there's always some reason for withdrawing stock "by a certain date". There have been a string of these, and their separate reasons, in recent years, as commented on in another thread.
Re your first para l don't doubt that there are well established methodologies for what you describe (indeed my own education convinces me of that). What l was questioning however was trying to argue that because other, wholly different, modes might be inferior ALARP should be completely ignored as the poster l responded to implied. There is no way in God's earth that a Court would wear that.

My wife is in a union at her hospital and the rep is not interested in any problems she has. He is interested in trying to get in the house magazine and, even more so, the local media.
That's incredibly poor. I have only needed assistance from my own TU (Prospect) once but I'm pleased to say that they were incredibly responsive and effective.
 

RT4038

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Pretty much my exact experience. When I've actually brought up some issues (a change in the expenses policy they sneaked in during Covid when no one was paying attention), my union branch completely ignored me.
It could have been because s/he agreed to it of course......
 

yorksrob

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For GWR at least, it is looking at 175s to replace castle sets, with them being allocated to LA so they are at a dedicated depot to who can give the love, care and attention they need. But, it will take a lot longer than next August for that to happen. For starters, a unit would need to be released and sent to LA for fitter familisation, getting them cleared, then crew training for several depots between Penzance and Cardiff before they even appear. TfW 158s are out of the question, not likely to be available until late 2025/early 2026 for various reasons.

How much capacity would these 175's provide, compared to the castle sets ?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Knee jerk reactions are not usually in everyone's best interest. Sure, plan for HSTs retirement - but no need to withdraw them on mass.

It is why I like the idea of a Rail Enhancements pipeline and rolling programmes (not just electrification). Everything gets planned. Progressive modernisation and improvement that is well planned and constant cascading of trains. Perhaps without going too OT, Scotland may prioritise its electrification program to where the Inter7Cities are deployed not necessarily to the highest traffic densities.
 
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yorksrob

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Slightly less in a 4 car set with a higher level of comfort. If there is a DMU that is like an evolved Mk3 it is those. I bet at least some non-enthusiasts won't even notice.

Will we get 4 carriage sets of the follow on question. If not, they're not an adequate replacement.
 

Rich McLean

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Will we get 4 carriage sets of the follow on question. If not, they're not an adequate replacement.
Would say it would be a mixture of 3 and 4 car. 3 cars will be plenty for most services. They also give flexibility for 5 or 6 car formations for peak lesire travel if required.
 

43066

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The train crews through reduced wages (or more accurately smaller increases...) ? Can't see that, the unions might complain about "dangerous" HSTs but they would not want their members to pay for it in any way, hypocrites.

I disagree that it’s in any way hypocritical for a union to concern itself with the working conditions and equipment used by its members - that’s why they exist! I’m not sure why you’d ever imagine that train crew would pay for replacement rolling stock. Would you expect your wife and her colleagues to pay for her hospital to be refurbished with safer equipment or (for example) to comply with modern fire regulations? Of course not.

My wife is in a union at her hospital and the rep is not interested in any problems she has. He is interested in trying to get in the house magazine and, even more so, the local media.

Some reps are certainly better than others. Some are rubbish!
 

Bluejays

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I quite agree with you. Banning "unsafe" opening windows followed two particular fatalities. Both of these were occasioned by Network Rail failing to maintain the specified structure gauge, in both cases long term. The real issue was their inability to do so. It's a good cop-out to say that it was the train windows that were unsafe, rather than keeping the lineside trees and signal posts (in these cases) up to spec. I questioned at the time why the much-vaunted Network Measurement Train didn't measure structure gauge clearance, only to be told "that's not what it's for".
Or maybe they took a pragmatic view of the costs involved. May well be cheaper to upgrade/withdraw certain carriages opposed to keeping lineside infrastructure up to spec

Knee jerk reactions are not usually in everyone's best interest. Sure, plan for HSTs retirement - but no need to withdraw them on mass.

It is why I like the idea of a Rail Enhancements pipeline and rolling programmes. Everything gets planned modernisation and improvement that is well planned. Perhaps without going to OT, Scotland may prioritise its electrification program to where the Inter7Cities are deployed not necessarily to the highest traffic densities.
That's way too sensible an idea !
 

43301

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While I can't speak for this specific union, my personal experience of unions is that they are more interested in pursuing policies that are in line with extremist ideologies and the people at the HQ are not at all interested in what their actual members think. I quit my union last year and I tried to explain to them how out of touch they were, but they were not at all interested.

I was a member of Unite for a number of years, and left for similar reasons.
 

Clarence Yard

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For GWR at least, it is looking at 175s to replace castle sets, with them being allocated to LA so they are at a dedicated depot to who can give the love, care and attention they need. But, it will take a lot longer than next August for that to happen. For starters, a unit would need to be released and sent to LA for fitter familisation, getting them cleared, then crew training for several depots between Penzance and Cardiff before they even appear. TfW 158s are out of the question, not likely to be available until late 2025/early 2026 for various reasons.

Although there are some in GWR that are touting this, the DfT have other ideas that involve a shuffle round of existing types and maybe some of the extra services that the west were due to get next year will be “delayed”.

ASLEF are knocking on an open door as far as the English TOCs are concerned as the DfT wants rid of the expensive HST sets. Cross Country is easy as the surplus 221 sets off Avanti are an obvious replacement but GWR needs a bit more thought, depending on the 769 situation as well as what, if any, extra services are required to run.

Keeping the 175 fleet in the north to release 15x sets is very much an option here, which will save on the GWR crewing costs. But nobody wants to get to the Chiltern situation where the LHCS is coming off this summer (after the commonwealth games) with no replacement identified at present and Chiltern, to save costs, being told to cover the workings from their existing fleet.

Scotland is the real issue as the DfT seem to be letting Scotland have a free run at the 222 fleet but they really want another year on that deadline for it to all work.
 

yorksrob

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Although there are some in GWR that are touting this, the DfT have other ideas that involve a shuffle round of existing types and maybe some of the extra services that the west were due to get next year will be “delayed”.

So basically the 175's are wishful thinking and GWR (and Chiltern so it seems) will be forced to use existing fleets - i.e. permanent short forms and service reductions.
 

Wolfie

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Although there are some in GWR that are touting this, the DfT have other ideas that involve a shuffle round of existing types and maybe some of the extra services that the west were due to get next year will be “delayed”.

ASLEF are knocking on an open door as far as the English TOCs are concerned as the DfT wants rid of the expensive HST sets. Cross Country is easy as the surplus 221 sets off Avanti are an obvious replacement but GWR needs a bit more thought, depending on the 769 situation as well as what, if any, extra services are required to run.

Keeping the 175 fleet in the north to release 15x sets is very much an option here, which will save on the GWR crewing costs. But nobody wants to get to the Chiltern situation where the LHCS is coming off this summer (after the commonwealth games) with no replacement identified at present and Chiltern, to save costs, being told to cover the workings from their existing fleet.

Scotland is the real issue as the DfT seem to be letting Scotland have a free run at the 222 fleet but they really want another year on that deadline for it to all work.
There does, except for Chiltern, seem to be a remarkable degree of common sense about all of that.
 

Rich McLean

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Although there are some in GWR that are touting this, the DfT have other ideas that involve a shuffle round of existing types and maybe some of the extra services that the west were due to get next year will be “delayed”.

ASLEF are knocking on an open door as far as the English TOCs are concerned as the DfT wants rid of the expensive HST sets. Cross Country is easy as the surplus 221 sets off Avanti are an obvious replacement but GWR needs a bit more thought, depending on the 769 situation as well as what, if any, extra services are required to run.

Keeping the 175 fleet in the north to release 15x sets is very much an option here, which will save on the GWR crewing costs. But nobody wants to get to the Chiltern situation where the LHCS is coming off this summer (after the commonwealth games) with no replacement identified at present and Chiltern, to save costs, being told to cover the workings from their existing fleet.

Scotland is the real issue as the DfT seem to be letting Scotland have a free run at the 222 fleet but they really want another year on that deadline for it to all work.
That sounds fair, if its 158s, but have this feeling it would be 150s.
 

JonathanH

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So basically the 175's are wishful thinking and GWR (and Chiltern so it seems) will be forced to use existing fleets - i.e. permanent short forms and service reductions.
That is not what was written - 'Clarence Yard' appeared to indicate that 175s could be kept in the North and some sort of cascade would allow 158s to go from Northern to GWR that would avoid GWR having to train staff on a new fleet.
 

yorksrob

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That is not what was written - 'Clarence Yard' appeared to indicate that 175s could be kept in the North and some sort of cascade would allow 158s to go from Northern to GWR that would avoid GWR having to train staff on a new fleet.

Oh, and considering Northern services are already thinly spread, where are all of these fleets of 158's going to come from ?

Ensuring adequate provision shouldn't mean robbing Peter to pay Paul.
 

43096

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That is not what was written - 'Clarence Yard' appeared to indicate that 175s could be kept in the North and some sort of cascade would allow 158s to go from Northern to GWR that would avoid GWR having to train staff on a new fleet.
Which just means Northern training staff on 175s rather than GWR. I'm not really seeing that that makes much difference in terms of costs.
 

JonathanH

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Oh, and considering Northern services are already thinly spread, where are all of these fleets of 158's going to come from ?

Ensuring adequate provision shouldn't mean robbing Peter to pay Paul.
It isn't robbing Peter to pay Paul if 175s go to Northern and release some 158s to go to GWR. It just moves the training requirement and potentially makes it easier to find somewhere to maintain the 175s.
 

Clarence Yard

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I suspect their thinking on this is that it might be easier to find a dedicated maintenance location for the manufacturer in the North, as well as having a slightly reduced train crew training requirement.
 

Cowley

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We’re going to leave this rather contentious topic here for now.

What needed to be discussed has probably been covered and here’s a link to the RAIB report if anyone hasn’t read it.

Thanks everyone.
 
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