Hull Trains Strike over dismissal

[Krokodil]

Also - one problem I do see with calling off the strike for a few days is that it allows management to have a day off, thus ensuring no HIDDEN issues for another 13 days.

It'll be difficult to plan around it if the calling-off is done at short notice. At some point the Driver Managers will need to keep up with their own work, otherwise they'll start losing productive drivers due to overdue assessments. Likewise they'll want to spend their weekends with their families rather than working every one for the next eight weeks

 

[The Middle]

At some point the Driver Managers will need to keep up with their own work, otherwise they'll start losing productive drivers due to overdue assessments.

How do you assess a striking driver?

 

[RailExplorer]

It'll be difficult to plan around it if the calling-off is done at short notice. At some point the Driver Managers will need to keep up with their own work, otherwise they'll start losing productive drivers due to overdue assessments. Likewise they'll want to spend their weekends with their families rather than working every one for the next eight weeks

Don't need to worry too much about overdue assessments, sickness, investigations etc when you don't have any drivers to manage (as they are on strike).

As for working weekends. It will totally depend on what financial package is being offered to the managers. There has been some hefty deals for managers to break strike action over the years.

 

[generalnerd]

How many Driver Managers (or other management qualified drivers) does Hull Trains have versus how many drivers do they have?

Also - one problem I do see with calling off the strike for a few days is that it allows management to have a day off, thus ensuring no HIDDEN issues for another 13 days.

Ht has 5 managers who can drive if I am correct, and I believe it has somewhere in the realm of 10 or so drivers proper

 

[Dogbox]

Ht has 5 managers who can drive if I am correct, and I believe it has somewhere in the realm of 10 or so drivers proper

5 managers for 10 drivers? That can't be right

 

[Bald Rick]

Ht has 5 managers who can drive if I am correct, and I believe it has somewhere in the realm of 10 or so drivers proper

There’s more drivers than that!

 

[Krokodil]

Don't need to worry too much about overdue assessments, sickness, investigations etc when you don't have any drivers to manage (as they are on strike).

Sooner or later it will cause you problems though

 

[generalnerd]

There’s more drivers than that!

How many if you don’t mind saying?

 

[Watershed]

How many if you don’t mind saying?

A good rule of thumb is 2-3 daily driver diagrams per unit in service, and approx. 2-3 drivers employed per daily diagram (all depending on agreed terms and conditions, number of lodging turns, level of spare cover provided etc.). So with 4 units in service, you could guess at around 16-36 drivers. Probably somewhere in the middle of that range.

 

[CC 72100]

A good rule of thumb is 2-3 daily driver diagrams per unit in service, and approx. 2-3 drivers employed per daily diagram (all depending on agreed terms and conditions, number of lodging turns, level of spare cover provided etc.). So with 4 units in service, you could guess at around 16-36 drivers. Probably somewhere in the middle of that range.

If the 5 Managers comment is correct, that would give a Manager : Driver ratio of 1:7.

The RSSB are a bit vague about best practice, but that's about 3 times smaller than most Driver Managers team sizes.

So either Hull Trains have an incredibly generous ratio (which would make most DMs envious) or they have far more drivers than that.

 

[greatkingrat]

If the 5 Managers comment is correct, that would give a Manager : Driver ratio of 1:7.

The RSSB are a bit vague about best practice, but that's about 3 times smaller than most Driver Managers team sizes.

So either Hull Trains have an incredibly generous ratio (which would make most DMs envious) or they have far more drivers than that.

It is inevitable that smaller companies will have a lower ratio than larger companies. You have to have enough managers to form an on call rota, and to ensure there is backup if one leaves/goes off sick. Plus that number of 5 might include a more senior Ops manager who doesn't directly manage drivers, but still keeps up their driver competency.

 

[RailExplorer]

If the 5 Managers comment is correct, that would give a Manager : Driver ratio of 1:7.

The RSSB are a bit vague about best practice, but that's about 3 times smaller than most Driver Managers team sizes.

So either Hull Trains have an incredibly generous ratio (which would make most DMs envious) or they have far more drivers than that.

In my DM days at SWR I had between 35 and 45 drivers in my team. It varied over the years due to people leaving and joining the grade.

Currently at EL, the DMs have about 15-20 drivers per team from my understanding (I'm not sure on exact numbers as I'm back driving again).

But it certainly does vary per TOC.

 

[driverd]

It is inevitable that smaller companies will have a lower ratio than larger companies. You have to have enough managers to form an on call rota, and to ensure there is backup if one leaves/goes off sick. Plus that number of 5 might include a more senior Ops manager who doesn't directly manage drivers, but still keeps up their driver competency.

It's certainly not inevitable and there's plenty of examples of alternative management structures. For example, you don't need driver competent managers to cover on-call if you have an arrangement with crew that embodies flexibility.

You're quite right, though, I strongly suspect the 5 competent managers at HT would go far beyond just driver managers.

 

[fodphil]

People should realise the its not just drivers and DMs that are competent to drive, operations managers and the like may well have come from the driving grade and have maintained competency

 

[CC 72100]

It is inevitable that smaller companies will have a lower ratio than larger companies. You have to have enough managers to form an on call rota, and to ensure there is backup if one leaves/goes off sick. Plus that number of 5 might include a more senior Ops manager who doesn't directly manage drivers, but still keeps up their driver competency.

That's a fair point that I'd overlooked; as you say, there's probably at least a driver training manager, at least an Ops Standards manager with driver competence; possibly even one more.

In my DM days at SWR I had between 35 and 45 drivers in my team. It varied over the years due to people leaving and joining the grade.

Even at the lower level there, those are still some meaty ratios!

 

[generalnerd]

A good rule of thumb is 2-3 daily driver diagrams per unit in service, and approx. 2-3 drivers employed per daily diagram (all depending on agreed terms and conditions, number of lodging turns, level of spare cover provided etc.). So with 4 units in service, you could guess at around 16-36 drivers. Probably somewhere in the middle of that range.

Yeah that does seem realistic.

You're quite right, though, I strongly suspect the 5 competent managers at HT would go far beyond just driver managers.

They do, from what I’ve been told, I think one of them is the operations manager.

 

[whoosh]

Can't find the ballot results circular now, but it had number eligible to vote etc. and was around 30. I've also seen a roster from a couple of years ago which had 30 lines in it.

It should also be mentioned that there were in that roster, 2 Lodge jobs per day. So this means if action is cancelled, then the contingency manager is already committed to doing 'part 2' of this as no-one else is in place. Also, if the day is a day when strike action is cancelled, but the following day has not, then 'part 1' of a lodge duty would need covering, (or the contingency manager travels pass to London and stays in a hotel) so as to be in position for 'part 2' the next (strike) day.

I expect airlines have the same logistical issues in a dispute.

The contingency managers are also subject to the 12 hours rest rule (relaxed to 9 hours on a lodge).

 

[Msq71423]

Currently 32 drivers.

 

[43096]

People should realise the its not just drivers and DMs that are competent to drive, operations managers and the like may well have come from the driving grade and have maintained competency

Good point! I’m aware of TOCs in the past where the Ops Director (enthusiastically) maintained their driver competency and the MD retained (and was assessed on) their competence as a guard/shunter.

 

[GordonT]

Good point! I’m aware of TOCs in the past where the Ops Director (enthusiastically) maintained their driver competency and the MD retained (and was assessed on) their competence as a guard/shunter.

Same in the bus industry a notable example being the now retired Brian Souter who not only maintained his PCV driver's licence but also covered the occasional driving shift when MD at Stagecoach.

 

[ACBest]

Same in the bus industry a notable example being the now retired Brian Souter who not only maintained his PCV driver's licence but also covered the occasional driving shift when MD at Stagecoach.

Very common indeed in the bus industry - during my time as an assistant ops manager, I was always out at the weekends doing a spot of driving - both to keep my hand in, and also listen to what our passengers had to say - and twice in the past month I’ve passed the owners of a couple of local companies out doing a driving shift for their respective businesses.

I’d be curious to know how common it is on the railways by comparison!

Sorry for veering off topic!

 

[sbrignall72]

No mention of industrial action on the website now. No temporary timetable also. What is happening

 

[185]

I heard quietly Aslef were talking to the grown ups of FG this evening at their West London HQ - could be related to this. Hope there's light at the end of the tunnel.

And a proper roster.

 

[Cross City]

No mention of industrial action on the website now. No temporary timetable also. What is happening

I'd also noticed this, it's also missing from the National Rail disruptions page. Still nothing there this morning.

 

[Cross City]

Was there ever an update to this? Still no mention of the strikes continuing or being suspended anywhere.

 

[generalnerd]

Was there ever an update to this? Still no mention of the strikes continuing or being suspended anywhere.

I think they are trying to silently resolve the strikes, but I could be completely wrong.

 

[800001]

Strike action back on Friday 18th April, link to Aslef below

ASLEF: Drivers at Hull Trains take strike action tomorrow | ASLEF

ASLEF members at Hull Trains will take strike action 18 April 2025

aslef.org.uk

ASLEF: Drivers at Hull Trains take strike action tomorrow

Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, and Dave Calfe, president of ASLEF’s executive committee, will join Nigel Roebuck, ASLEF’s full-time organiser in the north-east of England, and lead officer with Hull Trains, on the picket line at the front of the railway station in Hull tomorrow [Friday].

ASLEF members at Hull Trains are taking industrial action in defence of a driver who has been unfairly sacked and has done nothing wrong.

The strike will cause serious disruption on the rail network and force the company – an open access operator owned by FirstGroup, the rail and bus giant which also owns Avanti West Coast, Great Western, Lumo, and London Tramlink – to cancel many of its services on the East Coast main line to London.

Mick Whelan said: ‘The company’s failure to act responsibly has enormous implications not just for rail workers and passengers at Hull Trains but for staff and passengers right across the wider rail network. This is a moral issue because we have a culture on the railway designed to keep everyone safe. Anyone who works on the railway should be able to report a safety concern without fearing they will be penalised, punished, or lose their livelihood. The company has behaved deplorably.’

Nigel Roebuck said: ‘Hull Trains’s attempts to find a solution seem somewhat futile and half hearted. We are always available for constructive talks, yet nothing has been tabled since early March and those early discussions were unacceptable to ASLEF.

‘The story that appeared in the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail – papers with a perennial and painful right-wing anti-union agenda – of a train driver falling asleep at 125mph is – as the company knows – completely untrue. There are safety provisions, in place, in case a driver has a health incident, and the train automatically stops. But nothing happened and that is why neither newspaper has been able to produce a shred of evidence to support its claim. It’s a lie – sabre-rattling without any foundation whatsoever.’

Nigel added: ‘Hull Trains are saying that the situation is unique and difficult, and that they have decided that the individual can no longer drive trains based on a comment made during a safety brief and a collective view of being unsafe with little evidence other than a remark made. Our member has been driving trains for more than 20 years with a completely clean safety record. The company is punishing and penalising him for something he said, in the context of a safety meeting, not for anything he has done.’
Notes to editors:

ASLEF has 100% membership at Hull Trains, and drivers voted overwhelmingly to take action to defend a colleague spitefully sacked by the company despite having done nothing wrong.

Drivers also took strike action on Friday 7, Saturday 8 and Monday 31 March and Thursday 3 and Monday 7 April.

Drivers are taking action after the company refused to change its mind – despite admitting, privately, that it has made a mistake in what it did and in the way its HR dept went about it – and sacked a driver unfairly who did nothing more than raise a safety concern during a company meeting.

 

[sbrignall72]

What happened to the two weeks notice given.

 

[RailExplorer]

What happened to the two weeks notice given.

Wonder if the days before this have been cancelled, and this one hasn't. So not a new strike date as such and therefore no notice required.

 

[43066]

What happened to the two weeks notice given.

The requirement is for the union to give notice to the employer. It’s for the operator to decide how to inform customers.