Hydroflex - testing

[Northhighland]

Most major shipping lines are looking at Hydrogen as the power source of the future. The first bulk gas hydrogen transport ship has been launched in Japan. There is a huge push towards this technology. Lots of big companies like Hyundai, Kawasaki and others are investing big amounts of money in developing technology. There are companies looking at developing schemes to produce liquid hydrogen from Water using renewable electricity. These schema are currently under development.

The trucks Hyundai have supplied to Switzerland already offer a better proposition than electric trucks. Hydrogen has a part to play in the future, it will for rail travel as well. The UK has shown consistently it cannot deliver electrification at a reasonable cost, if it can't do that in the well populated south, it will never make a business case in the less populated and more distant North.

Remember all the anti wind power people? It would never work we would have rolling power cuts etc. The Uk reliably produces about 20% of all our electricity all day every day. Works just fine. Hydrogen will go through the same process, it will be improved and refined and it will work.

We cant right off new technology on the basis of the Hindenburg surely.

 

[Bald Rick]

Re Wind power:

The Uk reliably produces about 20% of all our electricity all day every day.

Whilst I am a fervent advocate of wind power, that statement needs challenging.

The U.K. produces, on average, more than 20% of its power through wind - almost 25% for the past year.

However it doesn’t do it “all day every day”. Right now it’s 17%. Last Tuesday it was 6%. One day next Spring it will be higher than 50%. It is highly variable.

 

[Meerkat]

Looking at which lines are on the map to be hydrogen powered they are also the scenic lines - time to combine two wishes and get a special tourist friendly hydrogen train with big windows, bike racks etc??
HoW, Cambrian, West Highland, Far North - how many units are we talking about?
Is it enough to interest one of the UK builders or should we just get Stadler on the blower.......and if it’s Stadler why don’t we just get on with it and pay for development now?!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Looking at which lines are on the map to be hydrogen powered they are also the scenic lines - time to combine two wishes and get a special tourist friendly hydrogen train with big windows, bike racks etc??
HoW, Cambrian, West Highland, Far North - how many units are we talking about?
Is it enough to interest one of the UK builders or should we just get Stadler on the blower.......and if it’s Stadler why don’t we just get on with it and pay for development now?!

I would think twice about phoning Stadler if you want the rolling stock to actually work.

 

[Meerkat]

I would think twice about phoning Stadler if you want the rolling stock to actually work.

Who would you phone?!

 

[Kingspanner]

Re Wind power:



Whilst I am a fervent advocate of wind power, that statement needs challenging.

The U.K. produces, on average, more than 20% of its power through wind - almost 25% for the past year.

However it doesn’t do it “all day every day”. Right now it’s 17%. Last Tuesday it was 6%. One day next Spring it will be higher than 50%. It is highly variable.

And this is why you need a means to store renewable energy . Your options broadly are hydrogen, batteries, pumped hydro, solar thermal, and something called CAES which I think is a popular niche in Germany and the US.

Batteries are an established and improving technology but what about weight and availability of rare-earth elements? Also reuse of batteries such as those from transport applications needs to be developed. Pumped hydro really isn't an option in the UK because of the landscape. I don't know whether using solar thermal at our latitude and with our whether is practicable. As for CAES, it is all about overcoming thermodynamic obstacles. Wikipedia has an interesting overview https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed-air_energy_storage.

Hydrogen does indeed suffer from energy inefficiency, but is readily storable and transportable by tanker and pipeline. It utilises skills and technologies found in abundance in the chemical and oil and gas sectors.
We will end up with enormous but variable renewable electricity generation and will undoubtedly have a mix of storage consisting mostly of batteries and hydrogen is some or other proportion.

The naysayers on here can bleat all they want, but evidence for the so called hydrogen economy is everywhere. It is coming like it or not.

BTW if you think hydrogen might be dangerous, spare a thought for the transportation of liquified petroleum gas or any other liquid hydrocarbon fuel, and the disturbing phenomenon know as a BLEVE - a Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion to which this particular activity is vulnerable. This particular one is "gasoline" fuelled but you get the point - and there's a train in it.

 

[birchesgreen]

Batteries are an established and improving technology but what about weight and availability of rare-earth elements?

Japan has recently found enough deposits of rare earth elements to last hundreds of years.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Japan has recently found enough deposits of rare earth elements to last hundreds of years.

Cornwall is being looked at for lithium deposits too, I hear.

 

[43096]

I would think twice about phoning Stadler if you want the rolling stock to actually work.

Although - and despite no previous U.K. experience - they have got their new stock for Greater Anglia into service, unlike the other supplier.

What do you advise, going to Bombardier instead?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

What do you advise, going to Bombardier instead?

Almost.

 

[43096]

Almost.

Try their Nemesis instead?

(also an anagram)

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Try their Nemesis instead?

(also an anagram)

株式会社日立製作所

I did actually suggest Alstom for good reason, I've just started selling fire extinguishers and need the business...

No, seriously they've been developing their hydrogen trains for a while now - and their traction packages are really nicely designed, good on EM interference, robust and reliable. I just don't know if any of the Porterbrook people are ready for the thought of introducing a new Alstom design, some are still in therapy from the Juniper launch.

 

[Meerkat]

株式会社日立製作所

I did actually suggest Alstom for good reason, I've just started selling fire extinguishers and need the business...

No, seriously they've been developing their hydrogen trains for a while now - and their traction packages are really nicely designed, good on EM interference, robust and reliable. I just don't know if any of the Porterbrook people are ready for the thought of introducing a new Alstom design, some are still in therapy from the Juniper launch.

Can Alsthom vary enough to make a nice tourist train?

 

[Bald Rick]

And this is why you need a means to store renewable energy . Your options broadly are hydrogen, batteries, pumped hydro, solar thermal, and something called CAES which I think is a popular niche in Germany and the US.

Indeed so. Of course you don’t have to use such facilities in this country. We already, effectively make use of pumped storage in France, and will be using Norway’s soon. Albeit there’s not that much.

Much more importantly, is that weather systems can only be so big. If it isn’t windy / sunny here across the whole U.K., it’s likely that it will be windy /sunny somewhere else in Europe (sun in daytime only, obviously!) And we will be able to tap into that on a much larger scale than we do now.

 

[Kingspanner]

Japan was mentioned upthread. As this article https://www.energy-reporters.com/storage/tokyo-olympics-to-showcase-hydrogen-progress/ discusses, the postponed Tokyo 2020 Olympics were to be used to showcase Japanese progress on hydrogen. There is mention of fuel cell cars and buses and a filling station network.
Japan consisting of largely mountainous and densely populated islands relies on imported fossil fuel for most of its primary energy.
Elsewhere in the pacific, Australia sits on huuuuge renewable energy potential and has a deal with Japan (https://www.powerengineeringint.com...agreement-to-usher-in-the-future-of-hydrogen/) to supply green hydrogen at scale (although initially through coal gasification) with the Russians sniffing about in the background
https://www.spglobal.com/en/researc...up-contest-with-australia-for-japanese-market
Electrolyse hydrogen from water using excess nuclear power, anyone?

 

[DerekC]

I read somewhere that you can split water directly by a thermo-chemical process using a nuclear reactor. Yes - described here:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-thermochemical-water-splitting#:~:text=Thermochemical water splitting uses high,or no greenhouse gas emissions.

Thermochemical water splitting processes use high-temperature heat (500°–2,000°C) to drive a series of chemical reactions that produce hydrogen. The chemicals used in the process are reused within each cycle, creating a closed loop that consumes only water and produces hydrogen and oxygen. The necessary high temperatures can be generated in the following ways:

• Concentrating sunlight onto a reactor tower using a field of mirror "heliostats," as illustrated in Figure 1. For more information, see Chapter 5 of the SunShot Vision Study.
• Using waste heat from advanced nuclear reactors. For more information, see the U.S. Department of Energy’s Nuclear Hydrogen R&D Plan.

Figure 1. Two mirror-based approaches for focusing sunlight on a thermochemical reactor to produce temperatures up to 2,000°C are illustrated: (a) a field of heliostat mirrors concentrates sunlight onto a central reactor tower; and (b) dish mirrors focus sunlight onto an attached reactor module. The solar-generated high-temperature heat can be used to drive thermochemical reactions that produce hydrogen.


Numerous solar thermochemical water-splitting cycles have been investigated for hydrogen production, each with different sets of operating conditions, engineering challenges, and hydrogen production opportunities. In fact, more than 300 water-splitting cycles are described in the literature.

 

[reddragon]

I read somewhere that you can split water directly by a thermo-chemical process using a nuclear reactor. Yes - described here:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-thermochemical-water-splitting#:~:text=Thermochemical water splitting uses high,or no greenhouse gas emissions.

The train won't need lights then a it will glow in the dark!

 

[Class 170101]

The U.K. produces, on average, more than 20% of its power through wind - almost 25% for the past year.

However it doesn’t do it “all day every day”. Right now it’s 17%. Last Tuesday it was 6%. One day next Spring it will be higher than 50%. It is highly variable.

Some form of storage needed to collect all the energy from wind or a financial way to encourage opeople to smooth out their demand for power (eg run the dishwasher overnight and not at 20:00 as Eastenders is finishing).

 

[Bald Rick]

or a financial way to encourage opeople to smooth out their demand for power (eg run the dishwasher overnight and not at 20:00 as Eastenders is finishing).

Ah well that exists now. Check out the ‘Agile Octopus’ tarriff. Octopus were paying people to use electricity at some points in the spring, and you can expect more of that next spring too.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Ah well that exists now. Check out the ‘Agile Octopus’ tarriff. Octopus were paying people to use electricity at some points in the spring, and you can expect more of that next spring too.

And electric cars will be charging overnight (and when they're told to, when there's a surplus of electricity available) which will smooth out demand.

 

[hwl]

I read somewhere that you can split water directly by a thermo-chemical process using a nuclear reactor. Yes - described here:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-thermochemical-water-splitting#:~:text=Thermochemical water splitting uses high,or no greenhouse gas emissions.

And also the most efficient pseudo catalytic Sulphur-Iodine process using waste heat from 4th generation Helium cooled reactor (AGR + much hotter and swapping CO2 to He) has been talked about for years, the only issue is building the reactor. (electricity generation is via direct helium Braytron cycle turbine rather than secondary steam, hence very easy to divert surplus energy to H2 production unlike current designs!)

The train won't need lights then a it will glow in the dark!

The 3 main colours of the DRS livery match the three Cherenkov colours in water - someone has (or had) a sense of humour in coming up with a "glowing" livery!

 

[reddragon]

And electric cars will be charging overnight (and when they're told to, when there's a surplus of electricity available) which will smooth out demand.

Mine already does that via Octopus. They send signals to my charger to turn it on/off to boost or slow charge.

 

[simon7929]

Just seen 3 parts of class 321 448 on 3 trucks. Heading on the A174 towards Redcar. I assume they are going to Lackenby?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Just seen 3 parts of class 321 448 on 3 trucks. Heading on the A174 towards Redcar. I assume they are going to Lackenby?

Not sure where the supply of hydrogen is that the railways are intending to tap into. I am guessing there is an industrial plant somewhere near a railway.
Did you happen to notice which vehicle was missing ? I saw one of the driving cars a few weeks ago passing through Walsall on the M6 north.

 

[greatvoyager]

Just seen 3 parts of class 321 448 on 3 trucks. Heading on the A174 towards Redcar. I assume they are going to Lackenby?

Is 321448 going to be the unit converted?

 

[221101 Voyager]

Is 321448 going to be the unit converted?

Yes.

Ex-'321' demonstrator to be hydrogen pioneer

Former Class 321 demonstrator to become first Alstom Breeze hydrogen unit

www.railmagazine.com

 

[greatvoyager]

Yes.

Ex-'321' demonstrator to be hydrogen pioneer

Former Class 321 demonstrator to become first Alstom Breeze hydrogen unit

www.railmagazine.com

Ah okay thanks. Will be interesting to see how it works.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Ah okay thanks. Will be interesting to see how it works.

Yes it will and to see if it can go above the 50mph of the 799 hydroflex.

 

[simon7929]

Not sure where the supply of hydrogen is that the railways are intending to tap into. I am guessing there is an industrial plant somewhere near a railway.
Did you happen to notice which vehicle was missing ? I saw one of the driving cars a few weeks ago passing through Walsall on the M6 north.

Sorry it was dark. Three wagons were following each other. We were stood at the traffic lights on the roundabout. The other coach may have been at the front of the convoy and was on the other side of the roundabout. It was very dark and visibility not ideal.

A picture on FB confirms 321448 is now at Lackenby near Middlesbrough.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Sorry it was dark. Three wagons were following each other. We were stood at the traffic lights on the roundabout. The other coach may have been at the front of the convoy and was on the other side of the roundabout. It was very dark and visibility not ideal.

A picture on FB confirms 321448 is now at Lackenby near Middlesbrough.

Thanks Simon. Seems like Lackenby is the place for the Breeze to start testing from.