I fully expect to be wrong but.......

[mumrar]

I was trying to help a customer who was travelling from Leamington Spa to Manchester, she got dropped off early and had the return portion of an Off-Peak ticket (no travel on services before 09:30) and wanted the 09:14 direct XC.

I advised her to purchase an SDS Leamington Spa to Birmingham International, whereupon the Off-Peak ticket would be valid to partially use from Birmingham International to Manchester. When the train arrived I asked the train manager on her behalf, the train manager flat out refused, stating that to use the Off-Peak return for any part of the journey it had to be on a train that left the origin stated after 09:30.

Now, its not professional for staff to disagree in front of customers so I left her explaining to the customer why it wasn't valid, but up to 2013 I was a guard of 16 years and this was always how I interpreted usage of part of a ticket during restricted times. Taking an extreme example, if somebody had an Edinburgh to Birmingham Off-Peak Return and they were on the return leg having got a lift to Newcastle, saying they wouldn't be allowed to use that Off-peak Return to get to Edinburgh from Newcastle until after the 09:30 XC from Birmingham has arrived at 12:42 is surely ridiculous?

Im happy to be proved wrong and having handled it wrong in all my previous time, I just feel bad for the customer who may be needlessly missing out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It very much depends on the wording of the restriction.

The following applies here, which is a bit ambiguous. Some specifically state the origin on the ticket, in which case it would definitely not be valid. Some specifically state it's where you board. This is a bit odd in that it's an overlapping split.

Using other comparisons, the restriction VTWC use for South East to North West tickets has an evening restriction from Euston but not MKC as per VT's franchise agreement. I doubt anyone would argue that an Off Peak Single Euston-Manchester plus a single Euston-MKC could be used to go to Manchester, whereas I doubt anyone would argue that a split of Euston-MKC and MKC-Manchester (if the train stopped there) was *not* valid, though by the literal wording it may not be. This would tally with XC being correct here.

What do others think?

Restriction Code: 2V

The following details applies
to current travel only.

APPLICABLE DAYS

Monday to Friday

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid for trains scheduled
to depart after 04:29 and
before 09:30.

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid for trains scheduled
to depart after 04:29 and
before 09:30.

NOTES

Overnight Break of Journey -
restarting journey from an
intermediate station:
Outward: (on day 2): outward
restrictions as above apply
from the intermediate station,
Monday-Friday.

Return: return restrictions as
above apply from the
intermediate station,
Monday-Friday.

 

[mumrar]

Seeing the last part from the notes would suggest it is valid by it qualifying as an intermediate station for a break of journey - it would be a bit daft to say it would be fine to do it if she got off and waited a day, and then could travel after 09:30 from BHI just because it was an overnight break. The conditions make no mention of origin stations, and flows which seek to control passenger movement via the arrival time, such as having no arrival before 10:30. A departure restriction which is so broadly applied between places so far flung as Plymouth and Edinburgh can't hope to try and achieve similar restrictions to service usage for people boarding at intermediate points anywhere along that route.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was trying to help a customer who was travelling from Leamington Spa to Manchester, she got dropped off early and had the return portion of an Off-Peak ticket (no travel on services before 09:30) and wanted the 09:14 direct XC.

I advised her to purchase an SDS Leamington Spa to Birmingham International, whereupon the Off-Peak ticket would be valid to partially use from Birmingham International to Manchester. When the train arrived I asked the train manager on her behalf, the train manager flat out refused, stating that to use the Off-Peak return for any part of the journey it had to be on a train that left the origin stated after 09:30.

Now, its not professional for staff to disagree in front of customers so I left her explaining to the customer why it wasn't valid, but up to 2013 I was a guard of 16 years and this was always how I interpreted usage of part of a ticket during restricted times. Taking an extreme example, if somebody had an Edinburgh to Birmingham Off-Peak Return and they were on the return leg having got a lift to Newcastle, saying they wouldn't be allowed to use that Off-peak Return to get to Edinburgh from Newcastle until after the 09:30 XC from Birmingham has arrived at 12:42 is surely ridiculous?

Im happy to be proved wrong and having handled it wrong in all my previous time, I just feel bad for the customer who may be needlessly missing out.

Oh dear. Another case of rail staff totally making up the rules. It's indefensible (after all, if the customer makes an honest mistake due to not understanding the rules properly, they will still be penalised!) but it's totally unsurprising, especially from XC.

2V-restricted tickets are valid to use on any train that is scheduled to depart at 09:30 or later (or between 00:00-04:29!). The origin of the ticket simply doesn't come into it, and the fact that the TM started talking about that, when XC have a really simple (though unduly harsh!) set of Off-Peak restrictions applying to the flows they price (which Leamington Spa to Manchester quite obviously is). There are basically just three to learn - 2V, BX and B1. 2V and B1 are functionally identical, so really there are just two restrictions to learn (and other restrictions applying to tickets valid on XC can easily be looked up!).

The customer should make a claim to CrossCountry for delay compensation in my view (if they did indeed delay their journey in order to "comply" with the "restrictions" XC purported their ticket had), or alternatively if they paid up the excess to the Anytime Return they should receive a refund of the excess paid, less the cost of an SDS to BHI. Unfortunately I rather suspect the customer will not be reading this thread.

As for next time, there are a variety of tickets which offer far greater value for a journey like this, being priced by TOCs other than XC. There is very little chance I would ever pay up for a XC-priced SVR, as it can almost always be undercut through a combination of tickets(s), and/or tickets to/from stations further along the line from the destination/origin!

 

[mumrar]

Thanks for the responses, it's always a difficult position to be in when you get caught between the customer and another member of staff. Ultimately its made the lady a bit displeased with XC (or worse, my employer, if she thinks I was in the wrong) and it costs XC their share of the fare to BHI as the customer has no intention of purchasing the full ticket excess to an Anytime return. There's no winners in a scenario like this.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for the responses, it's always a difficult position to be in when you get caught between the customer and another member of staff. Ultimately its made the lady a bit displeased with XC (or worse, my employer, if she thinks I was in the wrong) and it costs XC their share of the fare to BHI as the customer has no intention of purchasing the full ticket excess to an Anytime return. There's no winners in a scenario like this.

In the lady's mind, rail industry has probably garnered a reputation for a) being overcomplicated, b) acting morally unjustifiably and c) being disjointed. So she is probably inclined towards avoiding the train in future, certainly where there is a credible alternative. It's sad that the industry, and in particular, rogue members of rail staff such as that TM, don't think about how easy it is to damage not only their own TOC's reputation, but that of the rail industry as a whole, through their entirely petty (and incorrect!) application of "the rules" as they see them. It's an insidious attitude that has to be stamped out.

 

[DelW]

For me as a layman, the crucial test would be whether a similar off-peak return, but issued between Manchester and Birmingham International, would have been valid on that train to return north from BHI. If such a ticket wasn't valid, the TM would have a point, but if it was valid, I can see no justification for preventing use of a ticket which had been originally issued, but not used, from a point further south. After all, XC would have had the extra revenue, from the unused portion of the paid-for ticket.

Sadly the railway industry seems to love arcane and at times incomprehensible fares rules, and a small minority of staff love using those rules (or others they have invented) to inconvenience their passengers.

Presumably the OP was able to refund the SDS that the passenger by then had no use for? Otherwise in her situation I would be extremely cross at having bought an additional ticket and been prevented from using it.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

For me as a layman, the crucial test would be whether a similar off-peak return, but issued between Manchester and Birmingham International, would have been valid on that train to return north from BHI. If such a ticket wasn't valid, the TM would have a point, but if it was valid, I can see no justification for preventing use of a ticket which had been originally issued, but not used, from a point further south. After all, XC would have had the extra revenue, from the unused portion of the paid-for ticket.

Sadly the railway industry seems to love arcane and at times incomprehensible fares rules, and a small minority of staff love using those rules (or others they have invented) to inconvenience their passengers.

Presumably the OP was able to refund the SDS that the passenger by then had no use for? Otherwise in her situation I would be extremely cross at having bought an additional ticket and been prevented from using it.

I agree with your sentiment; that being said, I would disagree that if a ticket issued from Birmingham International were invalid at the time of travel, that that would have any relevance.

If for example as an allegory, LMS were somewhere like Norwich, BHI were London Paddington, and MAN were Reading, the fact that an Off-Peak ticket from Paddington to Reading has evening peak restrictions does not mean that the ticket from Norwich is invalid (it having no restrictions whatsoever from Paddington, by virtue of the Network Area Rule). This applies regardless of whether the ticket from Norwich is actually only used from Paddington (perhaps because the passenger is departing Norwich at a time where their Off-Peak ticket is not valid).

What is relevant is the restriction applying to the ticket(s) held; an Off-Peak Return from Leamington Spa to Manchester is valid for use on any train scheduled to depart at or after 09:30 on a weekday, and whether or not that train departed the origin of the ticket before 09:30 holds no relevance.

 

[robbeech]

The key difference is “Scheduled to depart” against “Scheduled to depart Leamington Spa” or “Scheduled to depart Origin” or “Scheduled to depart <insert station here>”

Was you an authorised person at this time? If you were, and gave them permission to travel on that train with their ticket or new combination thereof then surely any discrepancies and / or disagreements are for you and the guard or indeed your employer and the guard’s employer to deal with after the event with no hindrance to the passenger.

 

[yorkie]

I was trying to help a customer who was travelling from Leamington Spa to Manchester, she got dropped off early and had the return portion of an Off-Peak ticket (no travel on services before 09:30) and wanted the 09:14 direct XC.

I advised her to purchase an SDS Leamington Spa to Birmingham International, whereupon the Off-Peak ticket would be valid to partially use from Birmingham International to Manchester. When the train arrived I asked the train manager on her behalf, the train manager flat out refused, stating that to use the Off-Peak return for any part of the journey it had to be on a train that left the origin stated after 09:30.

You were correct, and the TM was incorrect.

.... I just feel bad for the customer who may be needlessly missing out.

I agree, unfortunately every day there must surely be hundreds of people who are overcharged, mislead or mistreated on the railway. It's a huge problem which no-one seems to have the ability to address.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The OP's friend would have to already had the SDS to BHM INTL then it would have been OK. XC will not issue tickets on board where facilities to buy exist at the joining station - which Leamington Spa has.

 

[yorkie]

The OP's friend would have to already had the SDS to BHM INTL then it would have been OK

Why would it? It would have been valid but the Guard specifically said it wasn't valid, so I don't see what you mean by "been OK"?

XC will not issue tickets on board where facilities to buy exist at the joining station - which Leamington Spa has.

Not true.

XC state
https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/passenger-charter/full-charter

"If you board one of our trains without a ticket you will be charged the full single fare"

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why would it? It would have been valid but the Guard specifically said it wasn't valid, so I don't see what you mean by "been OK"?


Not true.

XC state
https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/passenger-charter/full-charter

However if you look at the beneath there is no mention of selling a full priced single onboard.

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/no-ticket

We expect our customers to board our trains with a valid ticket for travel where the facilities exist for you to buy one before boarding, and it is your responsibility to have purchased a valid ticket before travelling. It is also your responsibility to produce this ticket when asked.

If you are unable to do so, you may be required to give your name, address and other information to a member of our staff. These are requirements under the National Conditions of Travel and the National Railway Byelaws. It is important the information you provide is truthful and accurate so that we can help resolve things as quickly as possible for you.

We have also had this (unfruitful) thread where the OP's details were taken and were not offered a full price single after boarding at Bristol Temple Meads.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-but-on-alternative-route-due-to-late-train.169894/

If my understanding is at variance with your Yorkie perhaps you can see why.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The OP's friend would have to already had the SDS to BHM INTL then it would have been OK. XC will not issue tickets on board where facilities to buy exist at the joining station - which Leamington Spa has.

LMS would have had facilities at the time of the 09:14 departing. But for those passengers departing on trains after the ticket office closes, there is only one ticket machine that accepts cash and it is frequently out of service.

 

[yorkie]

However if you look at the beneath there is no mention of selling a full priced single onboard.

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/no-ticket


We have also had this (unfruitful) thread where the OP's details were taken and were not offered a full price single after boarding at Bristol Temple Meads.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-but-on-alternative-route-due-to-late-train.169894/

If my understanding is at variance with your Yorkie perhaps you can see why.

It clearly wouldn't be appropriate for XC to refuse to sell the ticket requested and XC are unable to take details for prosecution because the customer already has a ticket for the full journey they are making. The ticket being invalid due to a published restriction can be rectified either by purchasing an additional ticket or by the issuing of an excess fare.

The text you quote cites the NRCoT yet you appear to be suggesting that XC can disregard the NRCoT and report someone for prosecution spuriously.

If you have evidence of XC doing this, I'd be very interested to hear it, as such behaviour would be wholly inappropriate.

 

[mumrar]

The key difference is “Scheduled to depart” against “Scheduled to depart Leamington Spa” or “Scheduled to depart Origin” or “Scheduled to depart <insert station here>”

Was you an authorised person at this time? If you were, and gave them permission to travel on that train with their ticket or new combination thereof then surely any discrepancies and / or disagreements are for you and the guard or indeed your employer and the guard’s employer to deal with after the event with no hindrance to the passenger.

As a GPR I'm revenue trained but carrying out duties as a despatcher today then it isn't a requirement of the role, so catch 22 there. The last thing I was going to do was cause delay and a debate over it, because sadly the TMs mind was made up and no amount of thumbing through codes would have quickly resolved it.

As to the query regarding buying before boarding, the customer (no associate of mine) had no idea of this way of creatively navigating the restriction so therefore wouldn't have gone to the booking office to purchase the ticket. I was speaking to the customer just as the train approached the platform.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It clearly wouldn't be appropriate for XC to refuse to sell the ticket requested and XC are unable to take details for prosecution because the customer already has a ticket for the full journey they are making. The ticket being invalid due to a published restriction can be rectified either by purchasing an additional ticket or by the issuing of an excess fare.

The text you quote cites the NRCoT yet you appear to be suggesting that XC can disregard the NRCoT and report someone for prosecution spuriously.

If you have evidence of XC doing this, I'd be very interested to hear it, as such behaviour would be wholly inappropriate.

I think I had the Bristol example in my head but looking back through that a lot us thought that OP was holding back and not answering clarifying detail that would have explained why that XC conductor decided on taking details and not selling an SDS.

At first glance and unless you knew would you wade through the link to 40 odd pages of NRCoT?