Ideas for alternative (non Scotrail/FGW) sleeper services?

[ainsworth74]

there was something about crash worthiness the last time it was raised.

From memory it was the need to do the necessary approval work to get something like an airline business class "pod" certified as being safe and what configuration would be safe. I think there was some concern that if you were laying in the direction of travel neck injuries would occur in a collision whilst in lay flat mode, obviously not a concern on an airline as the seat is in the upright position for take off/landing and if there was an emergency in flight severe enough for the position of the seat to be a concern it is likely to have fatal consequences anyway (otherwise there would be enough time to return it to the upright position)...

The approvals therefore were not impossible but the cost and delay of doing the necessary approvals was prohibitive to getting the stock in service on time.

Same argument as to why it is apparently necessary to have the lighting ambience of the custody suite at Greenock police station.

Whilst I believe this simply because no-one can be pestered with doing anything other than the bare minimum (read cheapest and easiest)...

 

[The Planner]

Whilst I believe this simply because no-one can be pestered with doing anything other than the bare minimum (read cheapest and easiest)...

Minimum Viable Product! NR is rife with MVP being the buzz word now.

 

[Trainbike46]

Are there any actual or planned sleeper services using something similar to the lie-flat seats in airline business class? That could be more attractive than a reclining seat but more space-efficient than cabins. I think many people would prefer sharing in this more open environment than in a closed compartment where there is a risk of robbery or assault.

Nighjet will be introducing single-person couchette pods with their new rolling stock

 

[spyinthesky]

Rather than a full on sleeper, would sets with recliners be more viable with a few carriages with normal seats for shorter night journeys?

 

[JonathanH]

normal seats for shorter night journeys

What shorter night journeys are people hoping to make?

 

[ainsworth74]

Minimum Viable Product! NR is rife with MVP being the buzz word now.

"Minimum Viable" the key part of that buzzword bingo phrase! Because the "Product" is suffering considerably as a result!

 

[spyinthesky]

What shorter night journeys are people hoping to make?

Not much thought about people’s hopes but an example might be Milton Keynes, Rugby, Northampton, Stafford,Crewe, Warrington, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle on the current route.

 

[Bartsimho]

Not much thought about people’s hopes but an example might be Milton Keynes, Rugby, Northampton, Stafford,Crewe, Warrington, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle on the current route.

If you could have a singular carriage dedicated to the closer destinations like MK it could be kept separate (due to noise) for all those coming back from an evening out in London

 

[jagardner1984]

accepting that is the reason - it does seem rather laughable given the potential relative forces on the human body of, for example, a plummeting A380 and a Mk5 dawdling through Crewe, one of the only trains on the entire 400mile WCML at that point. Not to be flippant about the risk but …. Come on !

 

[ainsworth74]

accepting that is the reason - it does seem rather laughable given the potential relative forces on the human body of, for example, a plummeting A380 and a Mk5 dawdling through Crewe, one of the only trains on the entire 400mile WCML at that point. Not to be flippant about the risk but …. Come on !

But that's surely the point? With the A380 plummeting out of the sky at several hundred miles an hour it won't matter what position your seat is in, you're dead. On a Mk5 doing 75mph down the WCML there's every chance you would survive a derailment or collision if the seat protects you properly from the rapid deceleration and doesn't allow you neck to be broken by your body being shunted forward into it. Which is why it required some approvals before it could be accepted.

You will note, for example, that they don't let you land or take off in an aircraft with the seat fully reclined into a bed. In part, no doubt, because the seat provides better protection in the upright position and take off/landing is a plausible scenario in which you might actually have a chance of surviving if the seat doesn't break your neck because you were laying down and you body slammed into it.

 

[heathrowrail]

I've always thought the Caledonian service should be split. One service for the West Coast mainline staying as is. Another going via the East Coast mainline and run by LNER.

 

[Trainbike46]

I've always thought the Caledonian service should be split. One service for the West Coast mainline staying as is. Another going via the East Coast mainline and run by LNER.

what destinations would each of these services go to?

Presumably london at the south end, but at the northern end?

 

[jagardner1984]

what destinations would each of these services go to?

Presumably london at the south end, but at the northern end?

Isn't a key consideration of this that the Sleeper can occupy one of the North / South Mainlines, and frequently does travel ECML to allow Engineering works - so highly unlikely Network rail would ever agree to both Mainlines being used for planned services simultaneously.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've always thought the Caledonian service should be split. One service for the West Coast mainline staying as is. Another going via the East Coast mainline and run by LNER.

Splitting it with two operators like that would surely increase the background admin costs?

 

[JonathanH]

Splitting it with two operators like that would surely increase the background admin costs?

Not to mention the efficiency of the driver requirements.

 

[The Planner]

Isn't a key consideration of this that the Sleeper can occupy one of the North / South Mainlines, and frequently does travel ECML to allow Engineering works - so highly unlikely Network rail would ever agree to both Mainlines being used for planned services simultaneously.

If either one was able to divert on to the open route I am not sure it would be an issue. The only issue now is that you cannot close both routes and the diversion has to be electrified and cleared for 92s.

 

[Bald Rick]

Platform length at Kings X would definitely be a constraint…

 

[heathrowrail]

Platform length at Kings X would definitely be a constraint…

Funny wasn't an issue when they diverted before.

 

[zwk500]

Funny wasn't an issue when they diverted before.

Specially shortened the formation.

 

[ShadowKnight]

what destinations would each of these services go to?

Presumably london at the south end, but at the northern end?

On the east coast, places like York or Newcastle would be pretty popular/equivalent to Crewe and Carlisle on the current west coast sleeper

Edit:
Oh to the end? I suppose taking over the Aberdeen portion mirroring the highland chieftain and meeting at Edinburgh an Edinburgh portion east coast service.

 

[JonathanH]

On the east coast, places like York or Newcastle would be pretty popular/equivalent to Crewe and Carlisle on the current west coast sleeper

The timings at York / Newcastle wouldn't be great for anyone looking to sleep.

 

[jagardner1984]

The timings at York / Newcastle wouldn't be great for anyone looking to sleep.

Also, and for the reasons you mention, aren’t Crewe and Carlisle pretty negligible in terms of Sleeper passengers ?

 

[spyinthesky]

Sleeper rail tours maybe?

 

[E100]

The only sleepers I would see in the UK having a viable market would be either Edinburgh / Glasgow to Paris / Amsterdam or London to Berlin/Geneva/Vienna etc. Someone doing a tour of western Europe could well viably do a London then Edinburgh then Paris type tour quite feasibly. We all know how Nightstar ended so it won't happen and they also need to be cheaper / much more convenient than the plane.

 

[Bartsimho]

Something I just noticed while looking up more luxurious UK sleepers (Royal Scotsman). It has beds in transverse which have been pointed out as something many other sleepers can't have https://www.flickr.com/photos/14589121@N00/37019598211 . How do the regulations work for this as I thought part of it was for crash safety (which I would guess would be speed related) or is it grandfathered in? or is it as it stops overnight although you could still be in bed while the train is moving?