Ideas for improving the CrossCountry timetable

[dk1]

Avanti do not run any direct services, at all, between Coventry and Birmingham International, and Manchester.

Yes it’s only two up trains 9R20 & 9R26 06:03 & 06:24 Man-Eus (SX).

 

[A S Leib]

Avanti do not run any direct services, at all, between Coventry and Birmingham International, and Manchester.

They do, but as it's limited to an 06:03 southbound service with no corresponding northbound service, it isn't one you'd be likely to use (unless living in Manchester or Stoke with a flight from. Birmingham International at ~11:00).

 

[dk1]

They do, but as it's limited to an 06:03 southbound service with no corresponding northbound service, it isn't one you'd be likely to use (unless living in Manchester or Stoke with a flight from. Birmingham International at ~11:00).

There appears to be an 06:24 now too.

 

[A S Leib]

Yes it’s only an up train 9R26 06:24 Man-Eus (SX).

Well, two direct services (https://archive.ph/xdAmH), but still not ones most passengers would use in place of CrossCountry.

 

[swt_passenger]

DfT have added the XC train requirement, towards the end there is a set of of routes that they need to operate at least once or twice a week.

There are also first and last train requirements

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/662a402a690acb1c0ba7e5ea/xc-trains-23-rail-contract-train-service_requirement.pdf

I see the section on diversionary routes no longer has any requirement to run Eastleigh - Reading ECS via Havant and Guildford? Thats odd because that’s a fairly regularly used route during engineering closures in the Basingstoke area. In fact it seems to have gone under the radar that they’re not currently running via Guildford anyway, and not in the June timetable. So it must have been binned in December?

(Not really speculation though, a DfT train spec is a real life matter.)

 

[Falcon1200]

Thanks for the corrections regarding direct trains, I had only checked the northbound direction!

 

[daodao]

Well, two direct services (https://archive.ph/xdAmH), but still not ones most passengers would use in place of CrossCountry.

I did use the 0647 southbound from Macclesfield once to travel to a conference in Stratford-upon-Avon, changing at Sandwell & Dudley and Smethwick Galton Bridge. It was a much pleasanter experience than the return journey, which required me to change stations in Birmingham and then use an overloaded XC Voyager.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I agree, and also for the Newcastle-Reading service which should be hourly. It would obviate the need for the "sticking plaster solutions" that I proposed in earlier posts on this thread. However, "dream on", as it ain't going to happen. XC doesn't serve London, so the Whitehall mandarins don't give a damn, and wouldn't allow resources to provided for such "profligacy".

The Labour Party have just promised that if elected they will end this direct control of the railways by Whitehall mandarins. I hope that delivering this would end this 'only services to London matter' bias and deliver the new trains with more seats needed for Cross Country Trains services connecting the big cities of the Midlands and the North of England with each other and directly with destinations served by Cross Country Trains in the South and South West of England.

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GETTING-BRITAIN-MOVING-Labours-Plan-to-Fix-Britains-Railways.pdf

The current system of intensive micromanagement of rail delivery bodies by the Department for Transport and Treasury officials and ministers is hampering the efficient running of our railways.

An incoming Labour Government will establish a new, arm’s length public body – Great British Railways – which will be a directing mind in charge of Britain’s railway infrastructure and services, responsible for the day-to-day operational delivery of the railways, for ensuring infrastructure and services work together, and for innovations and improvements in the experience of passengers and freight users.

The Secretary of State will set the long-term strategy and infrastructure priorities and hold the new body to account on its performance, but Great British Railways will be led by rail professionals and industry experts and have operational independence. This new structure will end the meddling and interference on operational and industrial relations matters by Ministers and Whitehall that has created such confusion and paralysis.

 

[FGWHST43009]

If there was enough stock, the GWR Penzance services could run fast in alternate hours to the XC Exeter terminator, with the current semi fast terminating at Taunton.

That is not going to happen anytime soon.

I think GWR should be the main operator for Bristol-Exeter rather than XC. Maybe a slightly faster Cardiff to Plymouth service that stops at Newport, Bristol TM, Weston, Taunton, Tiverton, Exeter, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Ivybridge? Then a slower Bristol-Exeter service could run. Could the Bristol-Manchester service run through from Plymouth instead of the Edinburgh service and also skip the stops at Tiverton and Totnes? On the overall topic of the thread, here's what I think should happen:
1tph Plymouth-Manchester without stops at Totnes and Tiverton and Worcestershire Parkway added
1tph Bournemouth-Manchester without stops at Winchester
1tph Bristol TM-Edinburgh via Doncaster without stops at Burton/Tamworth, Durham, Morpeth or Alnmouth
1tph Southampton Central-Newcastle via Leeds with stops at Burton/Tamworth and Durham
1tph Cardiff to Nottingham without stops at Severn Tunnel, Chepstow, Lydney, Wilnecote, Willington and Beeston
1tph Birmingham to Nottingham with stops at Wilnecote, Willington and Beeston (transfer to EMR?)
1tph Birmingham-Stansted run as normal
1tph Birmingham-Leicester run as normal (transfer to EMR?)

 

[The Planner]

I think GWR should be the main operator for Bristol-Exeter rather than XC. Maybe a slightly faster Cardiff to Plymouth service that stops at Newport, Bristol TM, Weston, Taunton, Tiverton, Exeter, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Ivybridge? Then a slower Bristol-Exeter service could run. Could the Bristol-Manchester service run through from Plymouth instead of the Edinburgh service and also skip the stops at Tiverton and Totnes? On the overall topic of the thread, here's what I think should happen:
1tph Plymouth to Manchester (no stops at Totnes, Tiverton and Stafford, adding a stop at Worcestershire Parkway)
1tph Bournemouth to Manchester (no stops at Winchester, Banbury and Macclesfield)
1tph Bristol to Edinburgh (via Doncaster, no stops at Tamworth, Burton, Chesterfield, Durham, Morpeth and Alnmouth)
1tph Reading/Southampton Central to York/Newcastle (via Leeds, no stops at Banbury, picking up stops between Birmingham and Sheffield)
1tph Cardiff to Nottingham (no stops at Severn Tunnel, Chepstow, Lydney, Wilnecote, Willington or Beeston)
1tph Birmingham to Nottingham (stops at Wilnecote, Tamworth, Burton, Willington, Derby, Beeston)
Birmingham-Stansted and Birmingham-Leicester run as usual

What calls at Banbury under this proposal? No chance of it losing its calls. Same goes for Stafford and Macc in the Manchester's.

 

[stevieinselby]

What's the obsession with cutting Leeds' Scotland services and giving Doncaster extras
Doncaster already has a 9 car to Edinburgh, plus all the others to York.
Yet you want to take away more trains between Leeds and the North? Why should Leeds lose out on another connection

I wouldn't cut Leeds–Scotland XC services , it definitely needs to stay hourly, but I do want to see an hourly Doncaster service reinstated – partly to provide more capacity, but also because even though the train dawdles along through Mexborough it's still 20–25 minutes faster than the tortuous route through Leeds and Wakefield, and that makes a big difference to the appeal of the train journey for anyone travelling York to Sheffield or longer. Heck, even the all-shacks Sprinter from York to Sheffield via Pontefract is only 10 minutes slower than the XC services via Leeds!

 

[FGWHST43009]

What calls at Banbury under this proposal? No chance of it losing its calls. Same goes for Stafford and Macc in the Manchester's.

Probably best to keep those stops if that's the case. For the Birmingham-Newcastle via Leeds and Birmingham-Edinburgh via Doncaster services, would it be possible for them to alternate between going to Bristol and Southampton?

 

[6Gman]

Manchester-Bristol
Extend all of these services to Exeter (I'm sure it's possible because it was mentioned on Wikipedia). Keep the 3tpd that run to Paignton.

In my days in train planning we tended not to regard Wikipedia as a reliable guide to what could/couldn't be done.

 

[The Planner]

Probably best to keep those stops if that's the case. For the Birmingham-Newcastle via Leeds and Birmingham-Edinburgh via Doncaster services, would it be possible for them to alternate between going to Bristol and Southampton?

They do now, its a Reading Newcastle and Plymouth Edinburgh, you need to bring back the Southampton extensions (not that XC could probably resource it.

 

[Mgameing123]

Longer trains? Thats what Cross Country needs.

 

[swt_passenger]

In my days in train planning we tended not to regard Wikipedia as a reliable guide to what could/couldn't be done.

In this case however, the wiki author was quoting the 2016 future XC service consultation, referenced [40] on that page. It may nowadays be out of date, but it was a valid addition to the page at the time.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I think GWR should be the main operator for Bristol-Exeter rather than XC. Maybe a slightly faster Cardiff to Plymouth service that stops at Newport, Bristol TM, Weston, Taunton, Tiverton, Exeter, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Ivybridge? Then a slower Bristol-Exeter service could run. Could the Bristol-Manchester service run through from Plymouth instead of the Edinburgh service and also skip the stops at Tiverton and Totnes? On the overall topic of the thread, here's what I think should happen:
1tph Plymouth-Manchester without stops at Totnes and Tiverton and Worcestershire Parkway added
1tph Bournemouth-Manchester without stops at Winchester
1tph Bristol TM-Edinburgh via Doncaster without stops at Burton/Tamworth, Durham, Morpeth or Alnmouth
1tph Southampton Central-Newcastle via Leeds with stops at Burton/Tamworth and Durham
1tph Cardiff to Nottingham without stops at Severn Tunnel, Chepstow, Lydney, Wilnecote, Willington and Beeston
1tph Birmingham to Nottingham with stops at Wilnecote, Willington and Beeston (transfer to EMR?)
1tph Birmingham-Stansted run as normal
1tph Birmingham-Leicester run as normal (transfer to EMR?)

XC Bournemouth-Manchester trains must stop at Winchester as being a two platform through station and connected by direct trains to everywhere in South Hampshire (including all stations Eastleigh to Portsmouth Harbour inclusive) it is the most convenient station to change to and from the XC Bournemouth-Manchester trains for passengers in South Hampshire. XC did drop some Winchester calls for a time post-pandemic but after many complaints from rail passengers in Hampshire these were all reinstated. AIUI the Reading-York service will be hourly again from May 2025 but only alternate trains will continue to Newcastle due to reallocation of paths York to Newcastle for a third LNER Kings Cross to Newcastle service each hour. However as the proposed Dec 2024 ECML timetable change has been postponed perhaps XC Reading to Newcastle will be hourly again to Newcastle. There were five extensions of the Newcastle-Reading services to Southampton each day pre-pandemic but XC no longer appears to have the paths for these and Reading-Southampton is a busy freight route so it is not clear whether XC could get the paths back.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Is there any possibility of running CrossCountry services to the Sussex or Kent Coast towns? Or to London? I do recall a number of years ago they proposed a London Paddington-Cheltenham-Manchester Piccadilly service but this I doubt will happen.

However would be good to see CrossCountry run more services into the South East.

 

[The Planner]

Is there any possibility of running CrossCountry services to the Sussex or Kent Coast towns? Or to London? I do recall a number of years ago they proposed a London Paddington-Cheltenham-Manchester Piccadilly service but this I doubt will happen.

However would be good to see CrossCountry run more services into the South East.

In a word, no.

 

[Kilopylae]

XC going to half-hourly would only make sense if the GWR Cardiff-Taunton service dropped out. In some hours the GWR is only 10 minutes behind the XC from Newcastle https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...24-04-25/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt. Running Hourly Manchester-Plymouth and Hourly Cardiff-Exeter seems much more reasonable journey provision to me.
Exeter isn't that big, and the demand to/from Bristol is reasonable but not 3tph Intercity all-day big. Maintaining connections to Cardiff (the GWR services form a half-hourly Bristol-Cardiff service with the Portsmouths, and that's very much needed). from Exeter is probably more important than having a 2nd XC every hour.

I think you underestimate the potential usage of a Bristol to the South West rail corridor with railheading to Exeter/Tiverton, but perhaps that's a pipe dream. The slow trains from Cardiff to Exeter are little more than an inconvenience west of Bristol; Devon to Wales isn't a big flow and the stops in Bristol's suburban slums make it annoying to end up on what gets called "the one that goes to literally everywhere, Weston-super-Mare and so on".

Could the Bristol-Manchester service run through from Plymouth instead of the Edinburgh service and also skip the stops at Tiverton and Totnes?

Totnes maybe, but Tiverton is important for the Devon-Bristol flow.

 

[zwk500]

Is there any possibility of running CrossCountry services to the Sussex or Kent Coast towns? Or to London? I do recall a number of years ago they proposed a London Paddington-Cheltenham-Manchester Piccadilly service but this I doubt will happen.

However would be good to see CrossCountry run more services into the South East.

Unfortunately there's no sensible route between Birmingham and south/southeast of London. The only links that do exist all funnel through Latchmere Junctions just north of Clapham Junction and they take meandering routes through suburban London to land on the Slow lines of their respective main lines. You'd spend a very slow journey stuck behind an all stations waiting for a slot at whichever junction you crossed onto the fast lines at.

 

[BrianW]

Is there any possibility of running CrossCountry services to the Sussex or Kent Coast towns? Or to London? I do recall a number of years ago they proposed a London Paddington-Cheltenham-Manchester Piccadilly service but this I doubt will happen.

However would be good to see CrossCountry run more services into the South East.

There were services Paddington- Manchester back in the day.

And Inter-City services from Liverpool/ Manchester- Brighton/ Newhaven/ Dover via Kensington Olympia.

I dare say some Googling and/or advice for Forumites will reveal more.

 

[stevieinselby]

Is there any possibility of running CrossCountry services to the Sussex or Kent Coast towns? Or to London? I do recall a number of years ago they proposed a London Paddington-Cheltenham-Manchester Piccadilly service but this I doubt will happen.

However would be good to see CrossCountry run more services into the South East.

Years ago, there used to be two daily XCountry services to Brighton – one from Manchester, one from Glasgow* – which called at Haywards Heath, Gatwick, East Croydon, Olympia, Reading and then via Birmingham.
Brighton to Birmingham took over 4 hours ... you could miss the XC train, get the next Thameslink train to London, tube to Euston and then ICWC to Birmingham and get there half an hour earlier, or to Manchester over an hour earlier.
Trying to thread an intercity train in amongst an intensive suburban network – especially now that the Overground is running much more frequently through Olympia – is always going to be tricky and you'll end up with substandard slow paths and poor asset utilisation running short XCountry trains on busy lines.

Focusing on the hub-and-spoke model where we improve connectivity between frequent services allows much better travel opportunities than running one or two trains a day on every permutation at times that are only going to suit a small minority of passengers.

What would be the purpose of running Paddington to Manchester via Cheltenham? What significant flows would it facilitate better than the current selection of GWR, WC and XC services?

* there may have been other formulations at different times, I'm specifically looking at the 1995 timetable

 

[Tayway]

This seems to be the most suitable CrossCountry crayon thread to put my suggested service pattern in.

The four InterCity routes would be:

Newcastle to Reading (via Doncaster)
York to Bristol Temple Meads (via Leeds)
Manchester to Plymouth
Manchester to Bournemouth

There would be a separate Edinburgh (or Glasgow Central) to Nottingham via Leeds service, this could potentially be operated by TPE instead.

 

[cle]

Fond of these in old timetables as I am, I think the streamlined, predictable clock-face railwy of today is far better, if not as charming.

I do recall some services which went Olympia - Watford Junction and then WCML to various places, as well as the Reading services.

Many of the latter began at Paddington, but were nominally XC services too. Paddington being a turnback, haha. But these provided the quickest London-Banbury/Leamington services of the time, before Evergreen and so forth. So they had another purpose. Some called at Slough, I thought.

 

[zwk500]

For History I'd recommend http://www.1s76.com/.

However, back on topic, reintroducing services to Kent and Sussex would be a clear detriment to XC's ability to offer reliable trains of an appropriate length as they'd have stock tied up between stopping trains on intensely worked routes.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Some of the old Brighton Cross Country services were even routed via the Crystal Palace line. I remember seeing a Voyager roll off Bromley Junction down towards Norwood Junction one night back in 2008. Thought I'd imagined it all these years.

Didn't they also get pathed from West Norwood to Longhedge via the Chatham lines too?

 

[JonathanH]

Didn't they also get pathed from West Norwood to Longhedge via the Chatham lines too?

Yes, that did happen for a while.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yes, that did happen for a while.

That is insane. Imagine being a long-distance passenger from Manchester to Brighton and being treated to the heights of Clapham, Brixton and Tulse Hill. I suppose this routing was to avoid the flat crossing at Balham?

 

[JonathanH]

That is insane. Imagine being a long-distance passenger from Manchester to Brighton and being treated to the heights of Clapham, Brixton and Tulse Hill. I suppose this routing was to avoid the flat crossing at Balham?

Anyone who used the CrossCountry service from Brighton was well aware that it wasn't quick. This routeing makes sense in the northbound direction, running up fast to platform 2 at East Croydon, then straight on to Norwood Junction, avoiding the crossover at Balham and Clapham Junction.

In the grand scheme of things, withba journey from Croydon to Reading taking over 90 minutes, running via Tulse Hill is not really that much of an issue in journey time terms.

Anyway, running CrossCountry to Brighton is not a way of improving its timetable as others have pointed out.