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IEP Update ? : HST two and a half

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Moog_1984

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Not to bump Zoe' s thread and efforts in manacuring it, since it has gone quiet :

What is the latest on IEP ?

Will the bi mode have HST style powercars?

WIll they reconsider dragging them with loco power to Cardiff and Swansea while wires reach further and then any other routes?
 
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YorkshireBear

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Not to bump Zoe' s thread and efforts in manacuring it, since it has gone quiet :

What is the latest on IEP ?

Will the bi mode have HST style powercars?

WIll they reconsider dragging them with loco power to Cardiff and Swansea while wires reach further and then any other routes?

not at all. and definitely not.

Thats about it..... :)

It will be underfloor diesel engines powering beyond the wires as a Bi mode. Stupid yes. But that is what they are going for at the moment.
 

fgwrich

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not at all. and definitely not.

Thats about it..... :)

It will be underfloor diesel engines powering beyond the wires as a Bi mode. Stupid yes. But that is what they are going for at the moment.

Welcome to...The Hitachi Voyager...:roll: The train that's designed to replace the Go Anwhere Mk3s...But IEP Can't go everywhere...MML, Cornwall, West of Swansea / Pembroke Docks...
 
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Moog_1984

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Welcome to...The Hitachi Voyager...:roll: The train that's designed to replace the Go Anwhere Mk3s...But IEP Can't go everywhere...MML, Cornwall, West of Swansea / Pembroke Docks...

Go anywhere, fail anywhere, need a loco anyway-anywhere....
 

Rhydgaled

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Go anywhere, fail anywhere, need a loco anyway-anywhere....

I doubt IEP as currently planned would need to be rescued locos very often, esspecially under the wires. Having diesel and electric power should see to that. However, away from the wires they will be very much the opposite of 'go anywhere' and drink faster than an IC125 (they claim Cardiff to Swansea would be no faster with an electric IEP than with a diesel, that shows the diesel has enough power to accelerate as fast as the electric and hence will drink fuel like a Voyager).

The millions that will need to be spent to let IEP get to Exeter and Plymouth (possibly even Penzance according to some corospondance) would be much better spent on electrifying to Swansea and Cheltenham and using proper trains (ie. ones with locos) that can fit our loading guage on services to the far West (Plymouth/Exeter/Penzance/Carmarthen/Pembroke Dock). Take the diesel engines out of IEP and they might become something enviromentally friendly, build them as currently planned and it is enviromentally perverse.
 
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Will the bi mode have HST style powercars?
The original DfT IEP specification and subsequent Hitachi SET proposal had the power sources in the end driving cars.
All the intermediate vehicles were either traction motor fitted, or un-powered trailer coaches and would take their power from a power bus, irrespective of what type of traction was fitted at either end.
The bulk of the fleet was to be 10 cars long, with less than a third being 5 car long.

There were two types of driving "power cars"' one electric with pantograph and transformer equipment, the other with a diesel engine and electric generator equipment. Neither type had any traction motors in order to save weight.

The diesel powerplant was to use Hybrid technology, as demonstrated on the Hyabusa HST test-bed, using rechargeable batteries to boost power and lower fuel consumption and emissions by a target figure of 15%+

The idea was that any combination of "power cars" could be fitted at the ends and could be changed (in several hours) to suit the routes on which the SET was deployed.
The proposed configurations were....

All diesel - two diesel generator driving vehicles
All electric - two electric pantograph driving vehicles
Bi-Mode - one of each type of driving vehicle

An all diesel could be turned into a Bi-Mode or an all electric, simply by changing the "power cars". Similarly the Bi-Mode could be made all electric or all diesel, just by changing one end..
The idea was that this would also suit a rolling electrification programme as well as provide fleet deployment flexibility over the service life of the type.

The all diesel version was subsequently dropped for various reasons.
As a straight comparison, this version should have been able to trounce an HST on several fronts (acceleration, passenger capacity, fuel consumption, emissions, modern electrics and electronic services etc), however the powers that be decreed that an all diesel variant was undesirable and would not be required?

As we know, that's all gone out of the window now and the IEP specification and Agility trains response to it has gone all over the place. it seems to be a total mess now.
There may be certain merits in using underfloor diesel engines as opposed to larger units in separate power generator vehicles, but unless someone can enlighten me, I believe there's a much better solution in the original design.
Plus the opportunity to utilise the Hybrid diesel powerplant has been lost along the way.

One of the objections to the original plan, was that the Bi-Mode would be underpowered off the wires. Surely the capability of this combo could have been boosted in some way? e.g. electric panto/transformer kit with two diesel generator vehicles, either combined in the same vehicle or in a passenger vehicle?

Anyway, while everybody complains and bickers about the power sources and the Bi-Mode (electro-diesel) aspects; very little attention seems to be given to the fact the Treasury and DfT bean-counters have managed to sneak-in a reduction in passenger capacity for these new trains.
Where the bulk of the original fleet were meant to be 10 car trains, they've changed that to the bulk being 5 car trains, with the longer ones being only 8 and 9 car. IMHO, that's a far bigger issue; after all one of the key objectives of this order was to enhance capacity on our already crowded network.


.
 

HSTEd

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Well if an autocoupler system with a connector for a 3600V DC power bus could be manufactured and made to work reliably you could use an AGC derived traction suite for the EMU and then just plug a generating van with several thousand horsepower into one end, it would then accelerate using all of the EMU's powered axles (and probably the gensets axles) and would thus be able to keep far closer to EMU timings.

If only.
 

Moog_1984

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The original DfT IEP specification and subsequent Hitachi SET proposal had the power sources in the end driving cars.

The bulk of the fleet was to be 10 cars long, with less than a third being 5 car long.

There were two types of driving "power cars"' one electric with pantograph and transformer equipment, the other with a diesel engine and electric generator equipment. Neither type had any traction motors in order to save weight.


.

About where I thought it was up to!

I heard Mistubishi were no longer interested in producing a larger PU power car.

It would seem fairly obvoius that enough under body engines to shift it will wiegh more than a single 2200-2700 hp power unit, which could do 100mph or more given advances in power delivery.

When I say fail anywhere, i meant if they were DMU then as per nearly all introductions, they will break down and need mods.

IC125 powercars had their share of issues, but it would be interested to compare them to voyagers etc in introduction and performance vs design.

The devon cornwall services deserve trains to be dragged by 4000 hp + locos if you ask me. Kestrel could cruise at 120mph 40 years ago.
 

ainsworth74

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What instead then?

Pure EMU with locomotive haulage away from the wires would be my choice.

Has IEP been the train for use on High Speed route 2?

No nothing has really been specified for HS2 yet other than a top speed in the region of 200mph (or even 220mph) something which is way way outside of the IEP's performance envelope.
 

Class172

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What instead then?

Where the Holyhead pendos with 57/3s not economic or reliable enough?

Has IEP been the train for use on High Speed route 2?
In stead of ordering a huge number of Bi-mode IEPs, which will be new stock and will require gauge clearances, we should be converting the 22x fleets to EDMU. Although this would also be bi-mode, it would be utilising current stock which is already designed for such purposes - it is easy to convert and the process would give capacity increases. 22xs would also be able to go more places to to their 23m carriage length. Now I could go on for a long time about this but this debate has been appearing so frequently on these forums that it is much easier to go through the other threads, though I expect members such as Nym will write a huge explanation reiterating what I am suggesting.

Alternatively we can use loco hauled EMUs (or switch electric loco for diesel) for places where it would be more suitable.

I am only using Nym as example: there are many users who could be mentioned.

1000 posts! <:D
 

anthony263

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Pure EMU with locomotive haulage away from the wires would be my choice.



No nothing has really been specified for HS2 yet other than a top speed in the region of 200mph (or even 220mph) something which is way way outside of the IEP's performance envelope.

I happen to share your view's

The bi-mode sounded good when it was first proposed, but I think everyone is waking up to the problems which have been shown with it, parrticulary the cost of running and maintaining them .

If you wire the Swindon - Severn Tunnel Jct - Cheltenham line as well as the line between Cardiff & Swansea you can kill off the bi-mode.

As for the time it would take to attached/dettach a locomotive at the end or start of the wires, I understand it maybe a problem particulary at places like Oxford. So perhaps in the case of oxford perhaps extend the wires to somewhere like Moreton In Marsh where it would be more easier to couple up the diesel locomtives.
 

tbtc

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If you wire the Swindon - Severn Tunnel Jct - Cheltenham line as well as the line between Cardiff & Swansea you can kill off the bi-mode

But there are still a load of "branches" on the GWML, what about Carmarthen, Worcester, Hereford, Weston etc?

No simple answers...
 

ainsworth74

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But there are still a load of "branches" on the GWML, what about Carmarthen, Worcester, Hereford, Weston etc?

No simple answers...

Wire them all! See there is a simple answer to these problems :lol:;)
 

YorkshireBear

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i still dont think there is a simple answer and i dont think there ever will be. imo the simplest solution is EMU plus Loco..... everythign else seems too complex and relies on too many factors.
 

Rhydgaled

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But there are still a load of "branches" on the GWML, what about Carmarthen, Worcester, Hereford, Weston etc?

No simple answers...

I've said many times before, I've answered the lot.

  • Paddington to Swansea, Cheltenham, Oxford and Bristol would be wired.
  • Paddington to Worcester/Great Malven/Hereford would be 2x 5-car bi-mode class 220 from PAD to Oxford, where one unit would carry on (perhaps with IC125s remaining on any odd fast service that needs extra capacity).
  • Paddington to Taunton/Exeter/Plymouth/Paignton/Newquay/Penzance would all remain IC125 operated, stakeholder's said 222s weren't acceptable for the route due to their underfloor engines, why would IEP be any different
  • Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare would be an IEP electric, dragged by a diesel loco from Bristol Temple Meads.

As for west of Swansea, Carmarthen might be a possibility but IEP never looked like it would get to Pembroke Dock. I maintain that, if like me you want to keep the services, the only sensible way to run them is to use an Intercity 225 and swap the loco for a TDM-fitted class 57 at Swansea. The Pembroke Dock service would be very difficult to run any other way, unless you use a 22x. You'd need to run-round at Carmarthen if you tried dragging an EMU, and it'd have to be a different design anyway due to IEP probably being too long for Narbeth tunnel.
 

Zoe

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222s weren't acceptable for the route due to their underfloor engines, why would IEP be any different
Why would they be unacceptable for that route when 220s/221s are used from Edinburgh to Plymouth which is a fair bit longer. Yes I know not many people would go all the way from Edinburgh to Plymouth but they are still used on long journeys. Unless there is further electrification then that route will most likely have no alternative but to go over to DMU/bi-mode operation in the long term.
 

ainsworth74

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Why would they be unacceptable for that route when 220s/221s are used from Edinburgh to Plymouth which is a fair bit longer.

It's FGW's judgement that they are unsuitable, a view which VT/XC and the DfT (or SRA or who ever the hell was in charge back then!) do not share.
 

Rhydgaled

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Why would they be unacceptable for that route when 220s/221s are used from Edinburgh to Plymouth which is a fair bit longer. Yes I know not many people would go all the way from Edinburgh to Plymouth but they are still used on long journeys. Unless there is further electrification then that route will most likely have no alternative but to go over to DMU/bi-mode operation in the long term.

I agree they aren't really acceptable on Edinburgh - Plymouth either, but we can't wire the whole IC network at once, that would take time. The pattern I listed above is meerly my vision of what could be possible by 2020. There's also the issue of aligning electrifcation with when rolling stock is due for replacment. Beyond 2020, I want to see electrification of all those routes (bar Pembroke/Carmarthen due to their low frequency of Intercity services) by 2040 so that when 22xs are life-expired they are replaced by electric trains, (true electrics, not phoney electrics (ie. bi-modes)).
 

SwindonPkwy

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Over what period of time will IEP be delivered? Surely bi-mode can be avoided altogether by phasing in electrification and phasing out HST's. On GWML, Phase 1 would be to Bristol and Cardiff, as planned. Phase 2 could be Swansea and Cheltenham. Phase 3, Taunton, Exeter, Worcester? Admittedly, Weston would be a few years away, but there is always the option of loco hauling from Temple Meads.

Am I being too simplistic?
 

Zoe

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Over what period of time will IEP be delivered? Surely bi-mode can be avoided altogether by phasing in electrification and phasing out HST's. On GWML, Phase 1 would be to Bristol and Cardiff, as planned. Phase 2 could be Swansea and Cheltenham. Phase 3, Taunton, Exeter, Worcester? Admittedly, Weston would be a few years away, but there is always the option of loco hauling from Temple Meads.
Swansea, Cheltenham and Worcester are getting bi-mode IEP. I have also seen reference to a semi-fast service to Exeter via the Berks and Hants. For Plymouth/Penznace though the plan is to retain HSTs on that route with no plans for electrification. Bi-mode IEP is a possibility but it another option is to electrify the MML and cascasde 222s to the London to Plymouth/Penzance route. It has also been suggested that HSTs could remain in service until 2035.
 

tbtc

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Bi-mode Voyager. Seemples… ;)

And then what goes on XC?

Bi-mode Voyagers would be perfect for XC, so I'm not sure what you'd replace them with?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've said many times before, I've answered the lot.

  • Paddington to Swansea, Cheltenham, Oxford and Bristol would be wired.
  • Paddington to Worcester/Great Malven/Hereford would be 2x 5-car bi-mode class 220 from PAD to Oxford, where one unit would carry on (perhaps with IC125s remaining on any odd fast service that needs extra capacity).
  • Paddington to Taunton/Exeter/Plymouth/Paignton/Newquay/Penzance would all remain IC125 operated, stakeholder's said 222s weren't acceptable for the route due to their underfloor engines, why would IEP be any different
  • Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare would be an IEP electric, dragged by a diesel loco from Bristol Temple Meads.

As for west of Swansea, Carmarthen might be a possibility but IEP never looked like it would get to Pembroke Dock. I maintain that, if like me you want to keep the services, the only sensible way to run them is to use an Intercity 225 and swap the loco for a TDM-fitted class 57 at Swansea. The Pembroke Dock service would be very difficult to run any other way, unless you use a 22x. You'd need to run-round at Carmarthen if you tried dragging an EMU, and it'd have to be a different design anyway due to IEP probably being too long for Narbeth tunnel.

But what replaces the Voyagers from XC and what replaces the 91s at East Coast?

And how economical is it to have old 57s working these services? And who is going to pay for all the "run round" facilities for these locos? And the extra staff?

Its not that simple.
 

Class172

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And then what goes on XC?

Bi-mode Voyagers would be perfect for XC, so I'm not sure what you'd replace them with?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But what replaces the Voyagers from XC and what replaces the 91s at East Coast?

And how economical is it to have old 57s working these services? And who is going to pay for all the "run round" facilities for these locos? And the extra staff?

Its not that simple.
You electrify Crewe-Chester then order some more 390s for VT, which would then be moved to XC. All the 220/1s would be converted to bi-mode by extending them to 6 and 7 cars respectively.
 
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tbtc

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You electrify Crewe-Chester then order some more 390s, which would then be moved to XC. All the 220/1s would be converted to bi-mode by extending them to 6 and 7 cars respectively.

You order 390s for XC? But they run no services 100% under wires.

If Chester - Crewe is wired (which it should be) then the "spare" Voyagers should go directly to XC
 

Class172

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You order 390s for XC? But they run no services 100% under wires.

If Chester - Crewe is wired (which it should be) then the "spare" Voyagers should go directly to XC
Sorry, I meant to say order more 390s for VT to displace their voyagers. :oops:
 

Nym

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Now I could go on for a long time about this but this debate has been appearing so frequently on these forums that it is much easier to go through the other threads, though I expect members such as Nym will write a huge explanation reiterating what I am suggesting.

Alternatively we can use loco hauled EMUs (or switch electric loco for diesel) for places where it would be more suitable.

I am only using Nym as example: there are many users who could be mentioned.

1000 posts! <:D

I'm not posting it again, but the maths work if you electrify the MML and CRE - Chester for the inital diagrams as currently is on the GWML and send all the WoE services via Bristol, downgrading the B&H to inter-reigonal with a shuttle from Taunton to Reading / Paddington.
Electrification would need to continue to include parts of the XC Core and main routes of Scotland (That should be done anyway) to have rid of HSTs completely by 2030.

Or go for the simple solution that I beleive Siemens and Bombardier are more than capable of making...

Either Mk.VI Carrages with DBSO/DBFO Cabs at the end of a semi fixed rake with a locomotive attached for appropriate haulage, compatable to be driven from either end.

Or a semi fixed rake EMU with a locomotive designed to be drivable from either end and use autocouplers, that way the loco can be attached/detached in a normal station dwell time. Locos would NOT need to run round...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As for the time it would take to attached/dettach a locomotive at the end or start of the wires, I understand it maybe a problem particulary at places like Oxford. So perhaps in the case of oxford perhaps extend the wires to somewhere like Moreton In Marsh where it would be more easier to couple up the diesel locomtives.

Autocouplers and interworkable cabs with the EMU solve this, just need the platforms to have permissive working so the loco will be sat waiting for the EMU to pull in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Over what period of time will IEP be delivered? Surely bi-mode can be avoided altogether by phasing in electrification and phasing out HST's. On GWML, Phase 1 would be to Bristol and Cardiff, as planned. Phase 2 could be Swansea and Cheltenham. Phase 3, Taunton, Exeter, Worcester? Admittedly, Weston would be a few years away, but there is always the option of loco hauling from Temple Meads.

Am I being too simplistic?

No, just missing off huge chunks of the network that could be done faster and release Diesel LDPE stock for the unelectrified remnants of the GWML.

Eg.

Cheltenham would release ?4 or 5 HSTs
Coventry - Oxford would not only release 8 220 units that could replace these HSTs and be lengthened by adding one or two panto cars, but it would also release turbos and open up a new electrified route to Birmingham

Similarly Bristol - Birmingham lays the foundation for other routes.

The Midland Mainline is the big one though.

13 HSTs directly replaced, ?27 222 units cascaded away to the GWML or ECML with panto cars slotted in to work on wires and make them longer.

Like I've said many a time though, we don't need any new LDPE Diesel stock if we keep up the pace on electrification.

Would be nice to have a locomotive designed spesifically (or adapted) to haul the new EMU stock though, not only for off wires services, but also diversions and breakdowns.

I'm sure DBS wouldn't mind adapting some of their 66 or 67 fleet to be able to haul the new EMUs in the same way that the 47/57 units where adapted. Since all higher speed mainlines will be electrified soon enough anyway and any stock running long off wires distances will be formed up of 22x units, a fleet of 20 or so adapted 66s with a top speed of 75 should do just fine.
 
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