If one of the major preserved railways failed?

[Cowley]

This is a subject that’s come up frequently over the last few years and I think it’s probably worth talking about.

The majority of us (I’m 50 this year) have grown up and got older with all of these railways not only being a part of our lives but let’s be honest, we’ve probably all taken for granted that they’ll always be there.
But what if they aren’t and at least one of them fails?

Let’s look at a couple of the more vulnerable ones:
The Llangollen and the West Somerset…

Both of them have come pretty close recently and have just escaped being wound up permanently, but at some point one of the big lines may well fail and it’s probably worth us discussing what might happen in that scenario.

I apologise for singling those two lines out because I love both of them, but we need accept that the outlook isn’t particularly great at the moment and it’s better to have an honest debate about it.

 

[Gloster]

I doubt if any of the dozen or so major railways will close, but it is quite possible that they might have to cut back a lot: fewer permanent staff, reduced number of operating days, concentrating on the most profitable aspects of the business, etc. This could then result in a loss of volunteers, some of whom would leave because they are annoyed because the plan to return their favourite loco to service is delayed because it is not a crowd puller, etc.

What I can see happening is a lot of the smaller sites giving up the ghost as there are no longer enough people who will spend £20 or 30 (*) to travel in a Mark 1 behind an industrial loco. I think that once the first couple go there may be a domino effect as volunteers start wondering if, after all their efforts, they will suddenly be told that everything is going to shut down and all their work is wasted.

* - I haven’t been on a preserved line for decades, so I have no idea of prices.

 

[bramling]

I doubt if any of the dozen or so major railways will close, but it is quite possible that they might have to cut back a lot: fewer permanent staff, reduced number of operating days, concentrating on the most profitable aspects of the business, etc. This could then result in a loss of volunteers, some of whom would leave because they are annoyed because the plan to return their favourite loco to service is delayed because it is not a crowd puller, etc.

What I can see happening is a lot of the smaller sites giving up the ghost as there are no longer enough people who will spend £20 or 30 (*) to travel in a Mark 1 behind an industrial loco. I think that once the first couple go there may be a domino effect as volunteers start wondering if, after all their efforts, they will suddenly be told that everything is going to shut down and all their work is wasted.

* - I haven’t been on a preserved line for decades, so I have no idea of prices.

I do think there are some railways who take visitors for granted, by essentially stuffing everyone into a tatty Mk1 with little consideration for the overall experience.

Personally I am prepared to pay the higher prices we’ve become used to since 2019, however in return I expect the railway to make some effort to make it a worthwhile experience. Not just 2019 with a crazy RPI-busting rate of inflation, or in some cases a worse experience than 2019.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think it entirely possible that a company running a preserved line could fail and be liquidated rather than pre-packed or sold out of administration. At the same time I would hope that the underlying preservation society would be supported enough by its members to continue in some form. This being based on the assumption that all operate with that limited company/member society structure.

Two questions would be:
Could the preservation society hold onto an operating base (by buying it) or have to relocate off-site?
Would any loco/stock owners based at the failed line be able to remain and if so be willing to do so without a contract from someone to hire their loco/stock?

If the station / works area was sizeable and attractive for redevelopment there may be non-railway interest in buying it from the administrator / liquidator. But that would create a lot of negative press for the prospective purchaser.
The trackbed would be less attractive, as per former BR trackbeds, perhaps sold off piecemeal to adjacent landowners or re-purposed as a walk/cycle route.
The track itself - would scrap value exceed the cost of lifting?

A lot, obviously, would depend on the specific circumstances of the failed line. Who owns what, leases what from whom, the often close relationship between companies, societies and owners of stock. The trackbed of the East Lancashire Railway is owned (or was originally bought by) the local councils so would hopefully be 'safe', other lines may not be so fortunate.

As a final blockbuster to set hares running, a rival line could step in, asset strip and then close down it's recent purchase in true monopolistic vulture capital style! That would certainly not go down well in enthusiast circles but the general public would probably be quite ambivalent. It's a nice cream tea with a train ride attached after all.

 

[Blindtraveler]

An interesting thread and very interesting possibility. We know that cuts even to this side of the industry are having to happen, did I not read somewhere this week that the svrr are making some changes? If a well-established organisation that presumably grocers quite a bit of cash despite its high operating costs is having to do this then what future for for the much smaller players who literally just get by each year and who keep their are volunteer accountants up at night wondering about the bill for the latest consignment of fuel for their locomotives?

 

[StephenHunter]

A number of the ones near London are making a fair amount of money from TV and movie filming; the Epping Ongar Railway was used for Heartstopper and two Christmas movies last year, among other things.

Less of an option for some places; and the TV boom is over.

 

[341o2]

It has already been mentioned that the Swanage Railway will see a significant reduction in timetabled services, due to the continuing reduction in passengers turning up on the day, as a result, 34072 will be based at the Spa Valley Railway, as the SR does not need to have three Bulleids.

 

[Ken H]

Maybe merging of some railways giving economies of scale
The 2 Great Centrals could merge
Yorkshire Dales Railway could be taken over by keighley and worth valley. Have a common engineering dept. Both are connected to network rail.


But more could be made of the railway estates. Tea rooms for non rail people signposted from main roads. The Welspool and Llanfair do that well at Llanfair.

 

[pdeaves]

A trigger may be the 'threat/no threat/threat again' situation for some lines of being repurposed into the national network again. Of course, there are pros and cons both ways but I can't imagine those volunteering to rebuild a line would want to do so indefinitely if they think it 'free labour' for Network Rail (or anyone else).

 

[Trainfan344]

We only need to look at the West Somerset Railway, surely the closest to loosing a major line in recent times?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A trigger may be the 'threat/no threat/threat again' situation for some lines of being repurposed into the national network again. Of course, there are pros and cons both ways but I can't imagine those volunteering to rebuild a line would want to do so indefinitely if they think it 'free labour' for Network Rail (or anyone else).

When I was a weekly volunteer at a preserved site (not line, at that time) I found the society / company arrangement strange. You mean all these people do all this stuff for free but have no control over how it is managed and ultimately it could be sold off behind their backs, with perhaps one individual representing the society on the company board. I was young and less knowledgeable at the time, now I can better understand the reasons and see some benefits.

The more commercially operated lines are perhaps also those most at risk. If your competitors are theme parks, museums, stately homes etc then it is a crowded market when times get tough. Add in a good share of income from corporate hospitality which may disappear if belts have to be tightened, filming income which can generally be done on any line, engineering contracts which could sour if the contractee goes bust etc. Perhaps the more you rely on volunteers, the greater your ability to ride out a financial episode, whereas the greater your reliance on paid staff, the harder it is to cut your costs quick enough to stave off financial disaster. Then it all comes down to levels of reserves, ability to borrow and ownership of assets (plus debt/security held against them). If the buildings and track are held in a separate heritage trust, the rolling stock by third parties and hired in, what is there in the operating company anyway other than experience and goodwill? Much like many modern businesses where the assets are separated from the operating company.

 

[A0]

A trigger may be the 'threat/no threat/threat again' situation for some lines of being repurposed into the national network again. Of course, there are pros and cons both ways but I can't imagine those volunteering to rebuild a line would want to do so indefinitely if they think it 'free labour' for Network Rail (or anyone else).

But for the 'major' lines, I think only one is seriously at risk of that - the East Lancs, where the hare-brained scheme to extend the Metrolink over it keeps rearing its ugly head. Some particularly myopic views from local councillors up there, who seem to forget that a tourist attraction *brings money in* to their local towns, whereas extending Metrolink there will simply enable people to travel to Manchester. Nobody's going to say 'Oh, let's have a day trip to Rawtenstall because the Metrolink runs there'.

Not so for the others - there's never going to be a serious suggestion about taking over the Great Central, the North York Moors or even the West Somerset in that way. To bring them up to full mainline standard along with the associated changes required to make them fully DDA compliant would be prohibitively expensive.

Of the other heritage lines, it's difficult to see which others might be a target for expanding the National network. I know the Lavender line comes up every so often, but I'm not sure Uckfield - Lewes will ever seriously come to pass - for that to gain legs there would need to be a huge amount of development in rural Sussex, which I doubt the locals will welcome. The Mid-Hants - maybe, but does extending from Alton to Arlesford really achieve anything ?

On the OP's point - we've seen lesser attractions fail over the years. What happened to most of those is the stock got distributed to other lines and the sites generally became derelict.

 

[Titfield]

It has already been mentioned that the Swanage Railway will see a significant reduction in timetabled services, due to the continuing reduction in passengers turning up on the day, as a result, 34072 will be based at the Spa Valley Railway, as the SR does not need to have three Bulleids.

Swanage may be in a difficult position. It leases its trackbed and buildings from Dorset Council and Swanage Town Council. It hires its steam locos from Southern Locos and John Bunch - the exception being the T3 which it was gifted from the NRM and is being rebuilt but due to enter service hopefully this year. It has an outstanding commitment to run at least one 90 day trial between Swanage and Wareham which requires obtaining the necessary license from the ORR, getting track and station access on the mainline and the provision of mainline certified traction (Class 117 and 121 DMU) and carriages. It has a number of long ongoing projects which have encountered setbacks - the carriage shed at Herston, the water tower to be installed at Swanage. It has very little land to develop / operate complementary attractions e.g. a large cafe, visitor welcome centre. Perhaps of most concern is that it "got by" on 200,000 passengers per annum - a very large figure which if as reported is in decline could open up a very large adverse gap between revenue and costs. It also seems to have a much smaller "volunteer and supporter" base compared to some of the other "large" Heritage Railways. Its engineering works is not rail connected requiring road haulage to move locomotives.

Yet despite all of that it could be said that Swanage Railway has the most incredible fortitude and resilience; a line resurrected which had been removed completely by BR on closure just leaving the buildings at Swanage and Corfe Castle extant, a line which survived plans by Dorset County Council to build a by pass on its trackbed, a line which required a town referendum for the preservationists to be allowed access to, a line which was able to successfully complete "Operation Millstone" (pay off its then debts) when it seemed as if its debts incurred to rebuild the line to Corfe Castle and Norden would force it to close. A line which has run some highly successful events including Strictly Bulleid - at the time the biggest gathering of Bulleid Pacifics since the end of steam. A line which was featured in the Oscar Winning Movie Dunkirk.

 

[geoffk]

There are other sources of income for heritage railways but whether they would be enough to stave off possible closure is not certain. The larger ones do work for the "big railway" - TOCs and Network Rail - storing new or withdrawn stock, testing of new trains, training of drivers, signallers and other staff, freight traffic e.g. stone on the WSR for sea defences. I think there was a thread on this subject recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Swanage I'd put in the same bracket as Okehampton - it needs reopening as a "proper" branch line to reduce the number of cars through Corfe Castle.

Though I do genuinely wonder, looking at a map, if bypassing it on the trackbed and providing a frequent electric bus service from Wareham station with through ticketing might have been a better plan. It'd be great to make Corfe Castle itself car-free (it really suffers from the traffic), but there's no other sensible route to Swanage itself.

 

[John Luxton]

As a final blockbuster to set hares running, a rival line could step in, asset strip and then close down it's recent purchase in true monopolistic vulture capital style! That would certainly not go down well in enthusiast circles but the general public would probably be quite ambivalent. It's a nice cream tea with a train ride attached after all.

Wasn't this the scenario put about 30 years or so ago when the Ffestiniog started showing interest in the Welsh Highland? Basically buy to close. Of course it all turned out rather differently.

A trigger may be the 'threat/no threat/threat again' situation for some lines of being repurposed into the national network again. Of course, there are pros and cons both ways but I can't imagine those volunteering to rebuild a line would want to do so indefinitely if they think it 'free labour' for Network Rail (or anyone else).

The closest we have seen to this scenario was the Dartmoor Railway which was always a bit of a hybrid heritage operation.

I have seen some bemoaning the end of the heritage operation operation there - but what is better a shuttle to Meldon Quarry on selected dates or a train every hour to Exeter 7 days a week? The associated society run a small museum and the station is now busier than it ever was in heritage days and nicely maintained with the buffet once again reopened.

I would see a heritage line once again becoming part of the network being a very positive thing.

We seem to forget that the heritage rail movement developed as an antidote to widespread closures and perhaps something of a stop-gap, perhaps maintaining the infrastructure which otherwise would have been lost?

 

[Titfield]

We seem to forget that the heritage rail movement developed as an antidote to widespread closures and perhaps something of a stop-gap, perhaps maintaining the infrastructure which otherwise would have been lost?

Yes indeed. It would be quite an achievement - and a reflection perhaps of changing needs - if a number of heritage railways were integrated back into the national rail network. Sadly though the heritage rail operation would almost certainly be incompatible with national rail network operation.

The two that spring most readily to mind (as being appropriate) are Swanage (because of the limitations of the local road network) and East Lancs (because of the congestion in the Irwell Valley).

 

[WAB]

As a final blockbuster to set hares running, a rival line could step in, asset strip and then close down it's recent purchase in true monopolistic vulture capital style! That would certainly not go down well in enthusiast circles but the general public would probably be quite ambivalent. It's a nice cream tea with a train ride attached after all.

I wouldn't underestimate the potential for local opinion to turn against the interlopers. The Ffestiniog's involvement in the WHR as mentioned by @John Luxton caused tensions throughout the community. That little saga, which could easily be the subject of a TV drama or a large history volume, was one of the darker moments in preservation history. It has taken a good twenty-five years for tensions to cool.

Perhaps the more you rely on volunteers, the greater your ability to ride out a financial episode, whereas the greater your reliance on paid staff, the harder it is to cut your costs quick enough to stave off financial disaster. Then it all comes down to levels of reserves, ability to borrow and ownership of assets (plus debt/security held against them).

But volunteers are vulnerable as well because of the cost of living crisis, and the difficulty in taking decisions because they can simply walk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasn't this the scenario put about 30 years or so ago when the Ffestiniog started showing interest in the Welsh Highland? Basically buy to close. Of course it all turned out rather differently.

The WHR(C) isn't particularly successful, though, I don't think it brings them in a fortune, and services are decidedly sparse. I wonder if they regret it? I'd not rule out that it might end up closing, though I'd love to see more done with it for actual public transport, a DMU or even BEMU shuttle service of some kind linked into the Sherpa'r Wyddfa service would be quite good - remember plenty of people will use trains who won't use buses, and Beddgelert isn't great with cars.

It's a real pity Snowdon Ranger isn't the main path up the mountain (nor a particularly interesting one) - if they had a station at Pen y Pass (I know the practicality issues!) they'd take a fortune by running hiker's services.

 

[John Luxton]

Yes indeed. It would be quite an achievement - and a reflection perhaps of changing needs - if a number of heritage railways were integrated back into the national rail network. Sadly though the heritage rail operation would almost certainly be incompatible with national rail network operation.

I think many would not find that an unacceptable situation as displaced rolling stock could be moved on to other lines. Presumably also the current operators would be compensated in some way if heritage operations had to be wound up? There might even be a case for keeping some heritage involvement in the stations.

There appear to be many station friend groups that undertake some maintenance, gardening etc. This is the role that the Dartmoor Railway Association appears to have adopted at Okehampton. Just down the line at Crediton there appearw to be an active friends group that keep the station in a tidy representation of its LSWR appearance.

The WHR(C) isn't particularly successful, though, I don't think it brings them in a fortune, and services are decidedly sparse. I wonder if they regret it? I'd not rule out that it might end up closing, though I'd love to see more done with it for actual public transport, a DMU or even BEMU shuttle service of some kind linked into the Sherpa'r Wyddfa service would be quite good - remember plenty of people will use trains who won't use buses, and Beddgelert isn't great with cars.

FR appear to have been investing in the route only replacing the Plas-y-Nant bridge in 2021. The longer game could be to operate a a decent sort of public transport service - wasn't that which swung the decision by the government to greenlight the project against opposition as it could relieve traffic.

 

[Ashley Hill]

There appear to be many station friend groups that undertake some maintenance, gardening etc. This is the role that the Dartmoor Railway Association appears to have adopted at Okehampton. Just down the line at Crediton there appearw to be an active friends group that keep the station in a tidy representation of its LSWR appearance.

Even Sampford Courtney has its supporters group.

Dartmoor Line | Sampford Courtenay Village Website

www.sampfordcourtenay-pc.gov.uk

 

[Titfield]

Even Sampford Courtney has its supporters group.

Dartmoor Line | Sampford Courtenay Village Website

www.sampfordcourtenay-pc.gov.uk

See https://communityrail.org.uk/

Whilst it is good to engage with the local community, I do have concerns that this is a way for TOCS to offload some of their responsibilities - to keep stations tidy and in good order - to others.

 

[6Gman]

I'm not really the heritage railway type but some thoughts:

1. At some stage a significant operation will fail, not least because of issues finding volunteers (in all areas including the directors/ trustees who have to take serious responsibilities).
2. The "released" stock - if in good condition - will be readily absorbed elsewhere. Volunteers less so, many will just finish.* The perpetual restoration jobs will rot.
3. And in the great scheme of things it'll have little impact (any ideas that local authorities will ride to the financial rescue because of "tourism" or "the local economy" are I feel fanciful).


* Has there been a post-Covid fall in volunteer numbers on heritage railways? In other voluntary settings I'm more familiar with quite a number have used the Covid suspension of activities to say "time to finish".

 

[PTR 444]

Swanage I'd put in the same bracket as Okehampton - it needs reopening as a "proper" branch line to reduce the number of cars through Corfe Castle.

Though I do genuinely wonder, looking at a map, if bypassing it on the trackbed and providing a frequent electric bus service from Wareham station with through ticketing might have been a better plan. It'd be great to make Corfe Castle itself car-free (it really suffers from the traffic), but there's no other sensible route to Swanage itself.

For vehicular traffic, you could build a short link road from the Norden roundabout to the Studland Road and send through traffic to Swanage via Ulwell Road (the road that diverges at the golf course before Studland). That would bypass Corfe Castle mostly using existing roads.

IMO the Swanage Railway should always be railway, whether heritage or part of the National Rail network.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Has there been a post-Covid fall in volunteer numbers on heritage railways? In other voluntary settings I'm more familiar with quite a number have used the Covid suspension of activities to say "time to finish"

On the line I volunteer on it is noticeable that some people never returned after Covid. Most were not rail enthusiasts as such,mostly retired people who wanted something useful to do and meet people. There is a notable increase in uncovered turns in the rosters too in all departments.
In reference to the OP I remember some time ago a wealthy businessman was actively purchasing shares in the Dart Valley Railway Co. It was thought by many that he would launch a takeover bid,close the line and asset strip. That company also owns some prime areas of land. Thankfully the fears never happened and I don’t know what became of him.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s a case of when, not if, in my opinion.

Two reasons:

1) the attraction of such railways will reduce, partly through the current cost of living issues, and partly through fewer people being interested in such things (changed demographics)

2) I just can’t see where the volunteers are going to come from to keep the things going. On a visit to the SVR last year I was astonished to see the bloke running the buffet / bar was the same guy who did it 40 years ago. And he was old back then!

 

[John Luxton]

On the line I volunteer on it is noticeable that some people never returned after Covid. Most were not rail enthusiasts as such,mostly retired people who wanted something useful to do and meet people. There is a notable increase in uncovered turns in the rosters too in all departments.
In reference to the OP I remember some time ago a wealthy businessman was actively purchasing shares in the Dart Valley Railway Co. It was thought by many that he would launch a takeover bid,close the line and asset strip. That company also owns some prime areas of land. Thankfully the fears never happened and I don’t know what became of him.

He was a Channel Island investor who sat on the DVR board until 2016. Sold out to Jeremy Hosking who is now the principal shareholder but not a board member. Its all on the Companies House web site.

 

[Gloster]

I have banged on a number of times on this forum about the way I believe that the pool of volunteers will decrease as those that remember steam or even early diesels die or wind down, and that the number coming in will not fully replace them. Similarly, the visitor numbers are also likely to drop as those who come for nostalgic reasons get too old and a preserved railway is just another day out. Neither will disappear completely, but a railway will have to live within its means and really work to get a larger share of a smaller pool. There will need to be a hard look at and concentration on what brings in the punters. For example: do we want to spend a lot of time and money (re)creating extinct loco classes?

Yes, I am off on one of my hobby-horses again.

 

[Irascible]

The WSR *should* be in a good spot - I know there's still tourists in Minehead ( it kept a lot of us in mid-Devon in jobs in times past ) and that end is fairly well placed in the town to attract people, and the other end isn't really hard to get to - if it's not mismanaged into the ground. And that's the same for a lot of similar places, whether they're railways or no, and that's a valid worry. A bigger operation in somewhere without any other hooks on the other hand...

 

[Titfield]

I have banged on a number of times on this forum about the way I believe that the pool of volunteers will decrease as those that remember steam or even early diesels die or wind down, and that the number coming in will not fully replace them.

I wonder how much of volunteering on Heritage Railway is driven by a love of engineering (be that civil, mechanical, electrical), history, transport (railways specifically) or just an interest / desire to do something or meet people.

Quite a few of the volunteers in various charities I know, do not (or at least did not at the start) have a burning desire to volunteer for that organisation because of what the charity stood for, but volunteered to do something useful and found that organisation to be friendly and welcoming and so once "inducted" gradually got more and more involved.

Certainly volunteering in passenger services on a heritage railway is a great way to interact with the general public and make a useful contribution. Very different to say the demands of being a driver, fireman, guard or signaller. If anything heritage railways probably have the greatest variety of volunteer roles and therefore there is something for everyone.