If one of the major preserved railways failed?

[Bertone]

Being a supporter of the Bluebell railway in Sussex, I receive a comprehensive news letter monthly which recently included an article regarding the funding of the railway and the current challenges they are up against.
It states that taking in all factors, it costs in the region of £1000 running one return service from Sheffield Park to East Grinstead.
They also are aware that the railway has more locos and rolling stock that it needs for a 11 mile railway and would consider rationalisation.
This rationalisation would possibly include the disposal of stock currently stored outside under tarpaulin, to other railways who had the means and facilities to renovate them.
The Bluebell is well organised, managed by a very efficient, experienced and knowledgeable team who have got their work cut out to keep it running profitably.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This rationalisation would possibly include the disposal of stock currently stored outside under tarpaulin, to other railways who had the means and facilities to renovate them.

I'm not sure that would be a bad thing - too many preserved lines just look like scrapyards with stock that will never run.

 

[Bertone]

I'm not sure that would be a bad thing - too many preserved lines just look like scrapyards with stock that will never run.

Agreed!

 

[43096]

They also are aware that the railway has more locos and rolling stock that it needs for a 11 mile railway and would consider rationalisation.

Which is presumably why they’re acquiring a 73 and a 207 unit!

 

[43096]

I'm not sure that would be a bad thing - too many preserved lines just look like scrapyards with stock that will never run.

You can’t say that!!! See the Castle thread recently on here - as soon as you suggest getting rid of unrestored junk people start jumping up and down.

For the avoidance of doubt, I completely agree with you.

 

[John Luxton]

I'm not sure that would be a bad thing - too many preserved lines just look like scrapyards with stock that will never run.

Yes often portrays a very scruffy image particularly to non enthusiast visitors and sometimes attract the unwanted attention of vandals and non genuine urban explorers.

If there was any good thing that came from the problems at Llangollen Railway was that some of the excess stock was sold off. However, I noted some scruffy wagons were still around.

 

[43066]

Being a supporter of the Bluebell railway in Sussex, I receive a comprehensive news letter monthly which recently included an article regarding the funding of the railway and the current challenges they are up against.
It states that taking in all factors, it costs in the region of £1000 running one return service from Sheffield Park to East Grinstead.
They also are aware that the railway has more locos and rolling stock that it needs for a 11 mile railway and would consider rationalisation.
This rationalisation would possibly include the disposal of stock currently stored outside under tarpaulin, to other railways who had the means and facilities to renovate them.
The Bluebell is well organised, managed by a very efficient, experienced and knowledgeable team who have got their work cut out to keep it running profitably.

I'm not sure that would be a bad thing - too many preserved lines just look like scrapyards with stock that will never run.

I suppose with lots of railways under financial pressure, and metal prices being quite high at the moment, there’s a fair likelihood that this type of stock would simply be sold for scrap, rather than sent elsewhere, though.

 

[Gloster]

But if every line decides to rid themselves of surplus stock, who will there be to buy it? As said above, a lot may go to scrap, so perhaps the Heritage Railways Association (or whatever they are called) should look at helping to coordinate things so that something worthwhile or relatively easily returned to running order does not get scrapped while some undistinguished heap of rust hangs on because its line is in a better financial state. (Sorry, another hobby-horse of mine.)

 

[AndyD5185]

I think 1 thing that a lot of people are missing in all of this is that most railways do not own the loco's or rolling stock. They are privately owned and work under contract to the railway they are on. This means that people keep them going with their own money and if the plc goes bust assets are usually held by a trust or society to protect them from receivers. None of the big railways will go anywhere until fuel becomes an issue.

Oh and another point I saw on here, most young families don't care if it's steam or diesel pulling a train, as has been proven by regular running days for the diesels.

Also to look at the point on volunteers, there are a lot of young people involved in pres these days, again to look at my own railway, we have a large amount of people under the age of 35 all in senior roles in pretty much all departments.

 

[Ken H]

Oh and another point I saw on here, most young families don't care if it's steam or diesel pulling a train, as has been proven by regular running days for the diesels.

Little kids want to see something like Thomas. So many train toys are steam engines. But small scale trains do. My grand-kids loved the little trains at the evesham vale light railway. They are 21 and 18 now so the novelty has worn off!!!

 

[nanstallon]

I think a failure is inevitable, we've already had a few small ones go down, Elsecar being one, although I think a relaunch is planned. Becoming a part of the network is increasingly essential. to give new life to smaller lines and increase the network itself. Too many operations adopt an insular attitude and progress is slow to non-existent. The 2 near Appleby should be linked, thereby actually using the bridge that was infilled then unfilled. A daily service should commence to Appleby with early and late through trains to Carlisle by reversing at Appleby. If the 2 lines won't do it, it should be imposed but, alongside any heritage services. As there aren't any, not really a problem.

This should happen nationwide. Swanage people have told me that there is no intention to run a winter service to Wareham yet, this was the whole point of reopening back in 1972. Old campaign adverts state this. I don't believe they want to run to Wareham at all in fact. So, impose a daily service either with the DMU's bought for the service or with 158/9's. Same with WSR, they are living on the edge, force them to run into Taunton, perhaps Bristol or, get someone else to do it. Competition is supposedly the mantra of the privatised railway so, let's see some, if the preserved lines won't do it themselves. Too much pulling up the drawbridges and too much of a siege mentality, even before Covid. Embrace change don't resist it.

Who will force heritage railways to extend to join up with the main line? For example, the WSR has a long lease on its line, and will run to Bishops Lydeard and no further, as long as they like!

 

[MisterSheeps]

Yorkshire Dales Railway could be taken over by keighley and worth valley. Have a common engineering dept. Both are connected to network rail.

"Yorkshire Dales Railway" is actually "Embsay & Bolton Abbey Steam Railway" and NOT connected to NR; was at one time, see :

Embsay and Bolton Abbey Steam Railway - Photogalleries - Embsay Junction

 

[NorthernSpirit]

But if every line decides to rid themselves of surplus stock, who will there be to buy it? As said above, a lot may go to scrap, so perhaps the Heritage Railways Association (or whatever they are called) should look at helping to coordinate things so that something worthwhile or relatively easily returned to running order does not get scrapped while some undistinguished heap of rust hangs on because its line is in a better financial state. (Sorry, another hobby-horse of mine.)

Scrap merchants such as European Metal Recyclers or maybe the surplus stuck could be melted down and turned into rails, clips and trackside equiptment thus helping the railway extened where possible or renew what they already have.

 

[Titfield]

Who will force heritage railways to extend to join up with the main line? For example, the WSR has a long lease on its line, and will run to Bishops Lydeard and no further, as long as they like!

Well in the case of Swanage it is a condition of the lease of the line that they run two trials (one of 60 days and one of 90 days) to test demand for a service. They have received considerable public money directly and indirectly to facilitate these trials.

Furthermore many heritage railways run galas with guest locomotives. Being mainline connected means these locos could come by rail and not by road (lowloader) though this is not the easy option it may first appear as to use the mainline locos have either to be mainline certified to run in their own right or dead hauled by a certified loco. Somewhat bizarely going by road is often cheaper / less onerous.

 

[E27007]

We have written about passenger numbers on Network Rail and the effects of Covid elsewhere on the site, do we have any numbers for passenger numbers or visitors on heritage railways before and after Covid?
Is it too early to have meaningful numbers, i assume Summer and Autumn 2023 will be the litmus test for the scenario

 

[D Williams]

While the available news from the SVR is that the 2023 service will be reduced to four days a week with only one steam loco in use the South Devon's provisional timetable shows trains every day from the 19th of March to the 29th of October. The outlook in Devon must be different.

 

[Brush 4]

TOC's should be given the right - if they don't already have it - to run services onto heritage lines, to fit in around the service on the line. Not a problem for the most useful early and late trains, as the HR lines generally don't run early or late and are retrenching even more now due to rising costs.

 

[Ashley Hill]

TOC's should be given the right - if they don't already have it - to run services onto heritage lines, to fit in around the service on the line. Not a problem for the most useful early and late trains, as the HR lines generally don't run early or late and are retrenching even more now due to rising costs.

Ok using the WSR as an example. If a through service from Minehead to Cardiff was delayed for 45 mins by a points failure at Williton would the WSR be responsible for paying for that delay? Could they afford it?
On the other hand a Cardiff to Minehead service has happily sprinted along at 75/90mph and now faces a 25mph crawl for the last 20 miles,would the passengers tolerate that?
Likewise if any WSR staff went sick and caused a cancellation who would pay for the cancellation?
Through working is fraught with potential risk and should be kept for one off events.

 

[43066]

Ok using the WSR as an example. If a through service from Minehead to Cardiff was delayed for 45 mins by a points failure at Williton would the WSR be responsible for paying for that delay? Could they afford it?
On the other hand a Cardiff to Minehead service has happily sprinted along at 75/90mph and now faces a 25mph crawl for the last 20 miles,would the passengers tolerate that?
Likewise if any WSR staff went sick and caused a cancellation who would pay for the cancellation?
Through working is fraught with potential risk and should be kept for one off events.

Indeed. No way in a million years that will be allowed to happen.

Something I’ve always wondered: who is responsible for the delay if a NYMR train sits down on NR metals en route to or from Whitby?

 

[simonw]

TOC's should be given the right - if they don't already have it - to run services onto heritage lines, to fit in around the service on the line. Not a problem for the most useful early and late trains, as the HR lines generally don't run early or late and are retrenching even more now due to rising costs.

so who is going t o provide staff to operate the various crossings and signal boxes on the line? What rate per mile should the TOC pay to use the line? Who finances the upgrade of the line for faster running?

 

[DarloRich]

Are we saying a preserved railway may fail and enter administration or are we saying a preserved railway may fail and be liquidated?

I would also suggest looking at how these operations are structured as many seem to have an operating company that carries the financial and business risk and a charitable trust who actually own the assets and supply the volunteers

Something I’ve always wondered: who is responsible for the delay if a NYMR train sits down on NR metals en route to or from Whitby?

NYMR I assume but think thier liability is capped. Also the timetable is hardly crowded on that branch!

 

[Thebaz]

Does anyone know whether any of our millionnaire rail-enthusiast celebs (Rod Stewart, Stephen Fry, Eddie Izzard, Pete Waterman etc) have invested in heritage lines? Now that Sir William has passed on, I wonder whether there is any appetite in the extended McAlpine family for further adventures in rail preservation?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Does anyone know whether any of our millionnaire rail-enthusiast celebs (Rod Stewart, Stephen Fry, Eddie Izzard, Pete Waterman etc) have invested in heritage lines? Now that Sir William has passed on, I wonder whether there is any appetite in the extended McAlpine family for further adventures in rail preservation?

Rod Stewart gave a chunk of money to a model railway club whose layouts were trashed by vandals a couple of years ago.
Pete Waterman seems to have taken a back seat compared with his high profile rail activities 20 odd years ago.
Jools Hollands layout features on the next episode of Hornby,A Model World on the Yesterday channel.

 

[Gloster]

From what I have heard there is no interest in the McAlpine family for anything new. However, they will fulfil anything they see as an outstanding obligation, even if it is not a legal one.

 

[notverydeep]

For vehicular traffic, you could build a short link road from the Norden roundabout to the Studland Road and send through traffic to Swanage via Ulwell Road (the road that diverges at the golf course before Studland). That would bypass Corfe Castle mostly using existing roads.

Given this change would be an obvious improvement for car drivers including the many visiting the area, my guess is that the reason it hasn't happened is to avoid attracting more traffic to the B3351 Studland Road and the route to Swanage via Ullwell. The existing arrangements here are probably intentional 'rationing by queuing' during the peak season...

 

[class68fan]

Ok using the WSR as an example. If a through service from Minehead to Cardiff was delayed for 45 mins by a points failure at Williton would the WSR be responsible for paying for that delay? Could they afford it?
On the other hand a Cardiff to Minehead service has happily sprinted along at 75/90mph and now faces a 25mph crawl for the last 20 miles,would the passengers tolerate that?
Likewise if any WSR staff went sick and caused a cancellation who would pay for the cancellation?
Through working is fraught with potential risk and should be kept for one off events.

For I think one year there were a train with 31 loco from Bristol? to Minhead. Cant have been made money?

 

[simonw]

Does anyone know whether any of our millionnaire rail-enthusiast celebs (Rod Stewart, Stephen Fry, Eddie Izzard, Pete Waterman etc) have invested in heritage lines? Now that Sir William has passed on, I wonder whether there is any appetite in the extended McAlpine family for further adventures in rail preservation?

Rod Stewart gave a chunk of money to a model railway club whose layouts were trashed by vandals a couple of years ago.
Pete Waterman seems to have taken a back seat compared with his high profile rail activities 20 odd years ago.
Jools Hollands layout features on the next episode of Hornby,A Model World on the Yesterday channel.

I don't think anyone 'invests' in heritage lines. The fastest way to a small fortune is to make a very large one and then start buying railway assets.

 

[47434]

I think there is a real reality that some lines will seriously scale back or close. The longer ones are surely most at risk as they take n'th more maintenance and n'th more coal/diesel to run a return trip.

There is a ceiling on what customers will pay. 5 mile Keighley charges £20 for a day rover, where as 11 out of 22 mile Wensleydale charges a shade less. Ok they don't compare in terms of steam vs. diesel and the various heritage aspects but Wensleydale trumps Keighley for scenery. Yet all I read on Wensleydale's FB page is 'when are you returning to Redmire/Northallerton or extending to Garsdale (which frankly is ludicrous).

Enthusiasts are generally the only punters who want a long ride. Families want about 90 mins max with interesting stuff to point at.

 

[Titfield]

Given this change would be an obvious improvement for car drivers including the many visiting the area, my guess is that the reason it hasn't happened is to avoid attracting more traffic to the B3351 Studland Road and the route to Swanage via Ullwell. The existing arrangements here are probably intentional 'rationing by queuing' during the peak season...

That routing has some very dangerous road junctions with limited visibility. The Junction of the B3351 with the lane that leads to the National Trust Purbeck Office and thence to the Ulwell Road, or the junction of the B3351 where it meets the Ulwell Road where coming from the ferry the road forks; straight on for Corfe Castle (B3351) or left for Swanage down towards Ulwell. The current junction of the A351 and B3351 at the foot of Corfe Castle itself (where the NT visitor centre) is also quite dangerous for traffic coming from the B3351 and traffic queues considerably there in the Summer. Building a road would require a land grab as well as crossing the railway line. I think (but am not sure) that the road after the Norden level crossing is for Perenco traffic only but in any case I suspect some of the land is NT owned which may create purchase issues.

I think there is a real reality that some lines will seriously scale back or close. The longer ones are surely most at risk as they take n'th more maintenance and n'th more coal/diesel to run a return trip.

There is a ceiling on what customers will pay. 5 mile Keighley charges £20 for a day rover, where as 11 out of 22 mile Wensleydale charges a shade less. Ok they don't compare in terms of steam vs. diesel and the various heritage aspects but Wensleydale trumps Keighley for scenery. Yet all I read on Wensleydale's FB page is 'when are you returning to Redmire/Northallerton or extending to Garsdale (which frankly is ludicrous).

Enthusiasts are generally the only punters who want a long ride. Families want about 90 mins max with interesting stuff to point at.

More than a 25 minute ride and you need onboard loos which work for families with little kids. Longer lines have many disadvantages: income per mile is lower, more track and signalling to maintain, customer appeal of a long ride is debatable for non enthusiasts, efficiencies of rolling stock utilisation; if you only have one loco in service the headway (interval) between services can be very considerable. If passengers miss the outward train for any reason they have a very long wait and many will not bother but get back in the car and go elsewhere.

 

[Neen Sollars]

I have banged on a number of times on this forum about the way I believe that the pool of volunteers will decrease as those that remember steam or even early diesels die or wind down, and that the number coming in will not fully replace them. Similarly, the visitor numbers are also likely to drop as those who come for nostalgic reasons get too old and a preserved railway is just another day out. Neither will disappear completely, but a railway will have to live within its means and really work to get a larger share of a smaller pool. There will need to be a hard look at and concentration on what brings in the punters. For example: do we want to spend a lot of time and money (re)creating extinct loco classes?

Yes, I am off on one of my hobby-horses again.

Spot on comments. Moral is: Enjoy them while you can, whilst they are still there.