If one of the major preserved railways failed?

[Bald Rick]

TOC's should be given the right - if they don't already have it - to run services onto heritage lines, to fit in around the service on the line.

There’s very few heritage lines that have a direct link to a national rail line that covers its direct costs of operation.

What you are suggesting is that TOCs should be given the right to lose more money on heritage lines on top of what they already require subsidy for.

 

[Trainlog]

I would like to throw an optimistic but cautious outlook into the debate.

Firstly, i agree - heritage railways haven't been doing as strongly as we wished they could be doing - despite countless film companies using them in most historical dramas as a backdrop for anywhere between 1870 till about 1965 or even the revival of the Flying Scotsman hype for the past decade.

From my point of view there are some areas that i think are some factors that haven't helped from my point of view.

1.) Railways failed to capitalize on getting a new generation to appreciate them despite a good few openings appearing. Lets think the legacy of Harry potter is still going strong well over a decade since the Deathly hallows part 2 wrapped up - the sites of Glenfinnan viaduct, Kings X, and standing next to Olton hall are practically places of pilgrimage to those who grew up reading the books. Yet despite a couple of railtours from Olton hall surely it would have been worth sacrificing a Hall class to wear the Hogwarts castle livery and fighting for the rights to host a Harry Potter event at somewhere like the NYMR on September 1st each year?

2.) I think Lawrie from LMM sums it up better than i would ever do

3.) There does seem to be a lack of promotion for heritage railways as opposed to other tourist attractions such as zoos, museums, art galleries etc and its just down to the fact that as there is so much choice of places to go and visit than a steam loco at a heritage railway.

Now for the optimism, i think there is still time to turn it around but i definitely think the focus should be ramped up more than previously to help end the decline in heritage steam. After the work of Youtubers, Tv personalities and 'sighs' Tiktok its been nice to see that the mocking of rail enthusiasts seems to be on a downward trend and geeky hobbies are embraced these days. 10 years ago if you said you liked Warhammer or the Marvel Cinematic universe you also got placed into the 'sad man' category - now after the work that has been put into their areas no one would bat an eyelid if you said you liked any of these interests.

Yeah sure the general public views your average DMU or EMU as an A-B train, nothing more nothing less. However, its great when seeing steam on the mainline is how confused commuters look on at why there is a crowd at the station to then see a steam engine charge through chuffing and making its presence known - steam has caught them off guard from their phones and has brought a sense of wonder of what they just saw pass though.

Personally i think that as we have a wealth of influencers who are passionate about trains, i reckon it would be great if they can help bring awareness of heritage railways as somewhere to visit or to consider volunteering for. For starters, i do like sitting down to watch a Geoff Marshall video and the fact that his videos hit trending on Youtube rather frequently means that many more do. However, i reckon it would be nice as a suggestion if Geoff promotes this video he made along with Tim Dunn with a small message on his Youtube community page tab bringing this up around late February - it could help persuade more people to consider looking into going to visit heritage railways or taking up volunteering.

I admit his content is not my cup of tea but i reckon getting Francis in to help with the #Loveyourrailway campaign this year could be helpful too. Yes i know, influencers wont save heritage railways from the current state of affairs. However, in the spirit of railway preservation we have to remember the examples that the pioneers set back in the 50s till the mid 70s on finding solutions to challenges faced on their lines. The Ffestiniog looked into ways to getting their Simplex loco running in times of desperation by changing from petrol to diesel and then back again when it suited them, they also went on to run locos for a bit on oil until they converted back to coal. In an age where sourcing coal will be hard for heritage steam as that era is coming to a close, its good that experiments into biocoal are taking place on many lines across the country so that heritage steam can carry on sustainably .

I'm glad that lines like the Tallyllyn like exploring new liveries for their locos like many of the early preservation lines did and i think the new Blue livery suits Talyllyn rather nicely - and tbf i dont mind that the GCR 9f posed in Brunswick green with nameplates in its recent ticket, its the fact it well cared for, was up and running and provided a service on the GCR that mattered and it suited it well.


To finish my rant i would like to end with a quote from a great preservation pioneer, Tom Rolt when he was discussing about Edward Thomas's new Giesl ejector at the time, though it wasn't a success his statement at the time holds weight today.

'Whilst we cherish the railway past on the Talyllyn we are not stubbornly routed in it' Tom Rolt.

6mins 3s

 

[Titfield]

I could probably write an essay length response to the points raised by @Trainlog but in brief:

1. Brand owners (those who own Harry Potter, Thomas the Tank Engine charge royalties way in excess of what most Heritage Railways can afford to pay out of an events takings.

2. There is a difference between Clever Nerds and Nerdy Nerds. Trainspotting sadly falls in the latter category.

3. Heritage Railways (or at least a lot of volunteers) would prefer to spend money on steel, wood and paint rather than any form of marketing.

4. Influencers may have a role to play but fundamentally Heritage Railways need to up their game in terms of the customer experience. Sadly many do not provide good value for money and thus those seeking "a grand day out" go elsewhere.

5. Attracting significant numbers of new volunteers is challenging across the entire charity / volunteering sector. Even the National Trust I am told are finding it more and more difficult despite the "street cred" (or is that dinner party cred) they have.

 

[Train Maniac]

I would like to throw an optimistic but cautious outlook into the debate.

Firstly, i agree - heritage railways haven't been doing as strongly as we wished they could be doing - despite countless film companies using them in most historical dramas as a backdrop for anywhere between 1870 till about 1965 or even the revival of the Flying Scotsman hype for the past decade.

From my point of view there are some areas that i think are some factors that haven't helped from my point of view.

1.) Railways failed to capitalize on getting a new generation to appreciate them despite a good few openings appearing. Lets think the legacy of Harry potter is still going strong well over a decade since the Deathly hallows part 2 wrapped up - the sites of Glenfinnan viaduct, Kings X, and standing next to Olton hall are practically places of pilgrimage to those who grew up reading the books. Yet despite a couple of railtours from Olton hall surely it would have been worth sacrificing a Hall class to wear the Hogwarts castle livery and fighting for the rights to host a Harry Potter event at somewhere like the NYMR on September 1st each year?

2.) I think Lawrie from LMM sums it up better than i would ever do

3.) There does seem to be a lack of promotion for heritage railways as opposed to other tourist attractions such as zoos, museums, art galleries etc and its just down to the fact that as there is so much choice of places to go and visit than a steam loco at a heritage railway.

Now for the optimism, i think there is still time to turn it around but i definitely think the focus should be ramped up more than previously to help end the decline in heritage steam. After the work of Youtubers, Tv personalities and 'sighs' Tiktok its been nice to see that the mocking of rail enthusiasts seems to be on a downward trend and geeky hobbies are embraced these days. 10 years ago if you said you liked Warhammer or the Marvel Cinematic universe you also got placed into the 'sad man' category - now after the work that has been put into their areas no one would bat an eyelid if you said you liked any of these interests.

Yeah sure the general public views your average DMU or EMU as an A-B train, nothing more nothing less. However, its great when seeing steam on the mainline is how confused commuters look on at why there is a crowd at the station to then see a steam engine charge through chuffing and making its presence known - steam has caught them off guard from their phones and has brought a sense of wonder of what they just saw pass though.

Personally i think that as we have a wealth of influencers who are passionate about trains, i reckon it would be great if they can help bring awareness of heritage railways as somewhere to visit or to consider volunteering for. For starters, i do like sitting down to watch a Geoff Marshall video and the fact that his videos hit trending on Youtube rather frequently means that many more do. However, i reckon it would be nice as a suggestion if Geoff promotes this video he made along with Tim Dunn with a small message on his Youtube community page tab bringing this up around late February - it could help persuade more people to consider looking into going to visit heritage railways or taking up volunteering.

I admit his content is not my cup of tea but i reckon getting Francis in to help with the #Loveyourrailway campaign this year could be helpful too. Yes i know, influencers wont save heritage railways from the current state of affairs. However, in the spirit of railway preservation we have to remember the examples that the pioneers set back in the 50s till the mid 70s on finding solutions to challenges faced on their lines. The Ffestiniog looked into ways to getting their Simplex loco running in times of desperation by changing from petrol to diesel and then back again when it suited them, they also went on to run locos for a bit on oil until they converted back to coal. In an age where sourcing coal will be hard for heritage steam as that era is coming to a close, its good that experiments into biocoal are taking place on many lines across the country so that heritage steam can carry on sustainably .

I'm glad that lines like the Tallyllyn like exploring new liveries for their locos like many of the early preservation lines did and i think the new Blue livery suits Talyllyn rather nicely - and tbf i dont mind that the GCR 9f posed in Brunswick green with nameplates in its recent ticket, its the fact it well cared for, was up and running and provided a service on the GCR that mattered and it suited it well.


To finish my rant i would like to end with a quote from a great preservation pioneer, Tom Rolt when he was discussing about Edward Thomas's new Giesl ejector at the time, though it wasn't a success his statement at the time holds weight today.

'Whilst we cherish the railway past on the Talyllyn we are not stubbornly routed in it' Tom Rolt.

6mins 3s

1. I think Harry Potter has the same problem that Thomas the Tank events has, getting the rights to an event is astronomically expensive and requires an awful lot of paper work. That being said the Dartmoor Railway seemed to manage with 'Polar Express' events so i guess its not out of the question

2. Very good video. i recommend others to watch

3. If you take time to read the comments on Geoff's videos there is a large proportion of commenters who openly admit that they arent particularly interested in trains. This goes to show that there is a wider appeal to railways other than standing on a platform in the rain watching trains whizz past

4. As STEAM Railway loves to bang on about, Railway preservation is evolving. Once upon a time a steam engine belching black smoke was the coolest thing ever; now it is considerably frowned upon. Therefore, innovation is required (e.g oil burning, biofuel etc)

On more personal note, i believe that there are too many small railways dotted about the place. Just in Kent we've got the Spa Valley, Kent and East Sussex and East Kent Raiiway. While it would be a shame to see any of these close, i think there should be a vision towards working together instead of as competition. For instance the Southern Electric Group at Eythorne could always team up with the loco groups at Rolvenden, thereby spreading the costs of maitenance and potentially increasing the amount of volunteers

 

[Titfield]

If you take time to read the comments on Geoff's videos there is a large proportion of commenters who openly admit that they arent particularly interested in trains. This goes to show that there is a wider appeal to railways other than standing on a platform in the rain watching trains whizz past

If you live in, or commute into, the London Underground area (but now sort of expanded by the Elizabeth Line) you might not be interested in trains per se but you will be interested in the system that takes you to / from work each day.

LU etc is extremely complex and there is always a feeling that those in the know get more out of using the system than those not in the know. For example Geoff explains all about the ticketing system / fares and how to get the most out of it, he also explains where the best places to change trains / lines etc. It is this sort of "insider knowledge" that Geoff puts across in an extremely engaging way.

 

[eldomtom2]

If you live in, or commute into, the London Underground area (but now sort of expanded by the Elizabeth Line) you might not be interested in trains per se but you will be interested in the system that takes you to / from work each day.

LU etc is extremely complex and there is always a feeling that those in the know get more out of using the system than those not in the know. For example Geoff explains all about the ticketing system / fares and how to get the most out of it, he also explains where the best places to change trains / lines etc. It is this sort of "insider knowledge" that Geoff puts across in an extremely engaging way.

But Geoff does a lot of stuff that isn't about fares and other practical stuff...

 

[paul1609]

On more personal note, i believe that there are too many small railways dotted about the place. Just in Kent we've got the Spa Valley, Kent and East Sussex and East Kent Raiiway. While it would be a shame to see any of these close, i think there should be a vision towards working together instead of as competition. For instance the Southern Electric Group at Eythorne could always team up with the loco groups at Rolvenden, thereby spreading the costs of maitenance and potentially increasing the amount of volunteers

The Kent and East Sussex at Rolvenden is actually closer to the Bluebell Railway at Sheffield Park than the East Kent Railway. The Spa Valley at tunbridge Wells is half the distance to either.
Financially the K&ESR was a larger railway in terms of turnover than the Llangollen (which the OP considers to be a Major railway) even before its financial problems.

 

[MisterSheeps]

One problem with heritage railways is lumping them all together ... if you go to the seaside you don't just make sandcastles. People who ride preserved lines probably spend little time doing that or looking at a row of empty goods trucks, and much more in the cafe (many are dire), bar, local walks, local attractions. The NYMR has great walks, attractions (Goathland, Falling Foss, Beck Hole, etc). The GCR has almost nothing like that. The ones that survive will be the likes of NYMR, Swanage (P+R to the sea) within reach of volunteers and sufficient customers.

 

[D6968]

I don't think anyone 'invests' in heritage lines. The fastest way to a small fortune is to make a very large one and then start buying railway assets.

Very much the view of one of my locomotive owning friends.

 

[Ken H]

One problem with heritage railways is lumping them all together ... if you go to the seaside you don't just make sandcastles. People who ride preserved lines probably spend little time doing that or looking at a row of empty goods trucks, and much more in the cafe (many are dire), bar, local walks, local attractions. The NYMR has great walks, attractions (Goathland, Falling Foss, Beck Hole, etc). The GCR has almost nothing like that. The ones that survive will be the likes of NYMR, Swanage (P+R to the sea) within reach of volunteers and sufficient customers.

The caff thing is so important. Places like garden centres make serious money from their caff.
Often historic places you find the caff is more important than the thing people are visiting.
A tidy mk 2 would make a good dining area if the building is too small.
Not the sort of thing you can run with volunteers.

 

[birchesgreen]

But Geoff does a lot of stuff that isn't about fares and other practical stuff...

Yes i'd say most of Geoff's videos are about railway history and also interesting / eccentric aspects of the system.

 

[E27007]

One problem with heritage railways is lumping them all together ... if you go to the seaside you don't just make sandcastles. People who ride preserved lines probably spend little time doing that or looking at a row of empty goods trucks, and much more in the cafe (many are dire), bar, local walks, local attractions. The NYMR has great walks, attractions (Goathland, Falling Foss, Beck Hole, etc). The GCR has almost nothing like that. The ones that survive will be the likes of NYMR, Swanage (P+R to the sea) within reach of volunteers and sufficient customers.

Yes there are more than sandcastles, the railway could run parallel attractions to the railway, a service with vintage buses to substitute for the off peak services, those cafes needs a shakeup,
Some cafes are a key visitor experience, the NAAFI Tearoom on the Great Central is a personal favourite

 

[Titfield]

Yes there are more than sandcastles, the railway could run parallel attractions to the railway, a service with vintage buses to substitute for the off peak services, those cafes needs a shakeup,
Some cafes are a key visitor experience, the NAAFI Tearoom on the Great Central is a personal favourite

Running a cafe giving a good customer experience and profitably requires a great deal of skill and ability. It is also hard work. Many Heritage Railways struggle with finding staff (whether volunteer or paid) able to do this. One of the problems the seaside railways face is paid staff want / need a full time year round job and unfortunately heritage railways cant offer this.

As regards running vintage buses this is beyond most heritage railways because of the legal requirements imposed on commercial vehicle operation. A railway would need to hold an operators license which includes employing (and they have to be paid it cant be a volunteer) transport manager as well as complying with drivers hours and vehicle roadworthiness / maintenance requirements. There are other requirements which I wont detail but suffice it to say it places an obligation on the organisation which may seem onerous relative to the number of days operation.

On more personal note, i believe that there are too many small railways dotted about the place. Just in Kent we've got the Spa Valley, Kent and East Sussex and East Kent Raiiway. While it would be a shame to see any of these close, i think there should be a vision towards working together instead of as competition. For instance the Southern Electric Group at Eythorne could always team up with the loco groups at Rolvenden, thereby spreading the costs of maitenance and potentially increasing the amount of volunteers

I am just not sure how small groups could co-operate in such a way as to save money. I suppose you could share premises but wouldnt that put off volunteers because of increased distances for some to travel? Sharing tools and the like would probably create more issues than it would solve. Ideas anyone?

 

[Ken H]

Running a cafe giving a good customer experience and profitably requires a great deal of skill and ability. It is also hard work. Many Heritage Railways struggle with finding staff (whether volunteer or paid) able to do this. One of the problems the seaside railways face is paid staff want / need a full time year round job and unfortunately heritage railways cant offer this.

As regards running vintage buses this is beyond most heritage railways because of the legal requirements imposed on commercial vehicle operation. A railway would need to hold an operators license which includes employing (and they have to be paid it cant be a volunteer) transport manager as well as complying with drivers hours and vehicle roadworthiness / maintenance requirements. There are other requirements which I wont detail but suffice it to say it places an obligation on the organisation which may seem onerous relative to the number of days operation.



I am just not sure how small groups could co-operate in such a way as to save money. I suppose you could share premises but wouldnt that put off volunteers because of increased distances for some to travel? Sharing tools and the like would probably create more issues than it would solve. Ideas anyone?

Very difficult to run a commercial service with a vintage bus because of disability regs. Which is why bus events cant charge for bus rides and rely on a bycket for people to contribute. Though many dont.

Catering i would let to a contractor to run. Rely on the rent income. And hooefully profit share.

 

[John Luxton]

1. I think Harry Potter has the same problem that Thomas the Tank events has, getting the rights to an event is astronomically expensive and requires an awful lot of paper work. That being said the Dartmoor Railway seemed to manage with 'Polar Express' events so i guess its not out of the question

I recall reading on a forum that one of the creditors of Dartmoor Railway CIC was the company who licenced Polar Express. Someone made a quip that they were not paid anything. I can't substantiate this but I know I read it sometime after the company went into administration.

The Seaton Tramway in East Devon has however operated a "Polar Express" in recent years and did so in December 2022 - thus there is a small operation which has successfully done so.

The caff thing is so important. Places like garden centres make serious money from their caff.
Often historic places you find the caff is more important than the thing people are visiting.
A tidy mk 2 would make a good dining area if the building is too small.
Not the sort of thing you can run with volunteers.

Quite a few railways open their cafes and bars if they have them on non operating days thus they bring in money when the trains are not operating.

I note the other day that Talyllyn has announced Tywyn cafe has reopened after a short winter refit. Unlike FR's Spooners in Porthmadog, King's Cafe at Tywyn Wharf isn't actually on the main street but it it obviously worth their while running it on non operating days.

A good cafe / bar is could be the way of enticing people on to a railway. People stop for refreshments, then decide to go for a ride thus one sale can lead to another.

 

[wce]

I recall reading on a forum that one of the creditors of Dartmoor Railway CIC was the company who licenced Polar Express. Someone made a quip that they were not paid anything. I can't substantiate this but I know I read it sometime after the company went into administration.

The Seaton Tramway in East Devon has however operated a "Polar Express" in recent years and did so in December 2022 - thus there is a small operation which has successfully done so.

There’s been several smaller railways which have had success with the Polar express. Two which spring to mind are Telford and the Cholsey & Wallingford railways.

 

[43096]

There’s been several smaller railways which have had success with the Polar express. Two which spring to mind are Telford and the Cholsey & Wallingford railways.

We’re they a financial success?

 

[47434]

Availability of volunteers is as critical to the sector as availability of fare paying passengers. Less volunteers leads to more paid staff.

The sector is really struggling since the changes in retirement age and pensions being taken by ex-civil service in their early 50's being a thing of the past

 

[Techniquest]

Yes i'd say most of Geoff's videos are about railway history and also interesting / eccentric aspects of the system.

He sure does a lot of varied content, which is quite interesting. I rather like his End Of The Line series he's currently doing on the Underground. A good example there is Chesham. When I went many years ago, on a Zone 9 station scoring mission so this must have been in 2014, I got off the train and did not much else. I might have not left the platform, in fact I think that's what I did to make sure I didn't miss the train back out!

Having watched Geoff's video on Chesham, while the town doesn't look all that exciting, I took particular note of there being walking expeditions available. I'd never considered that as an option in Chesham before, and as a direct result I now have a revisit to the line on my wish list.

I'm sure other destinations he's done have similar levels of interest, but I'd have to go back to the other videos to check.

As for how this is relevant to this thread, I'd say this sort of thing has to be linked with heritage railways. Make the most of the area they're in if that makes sense. Even on the 'big railway' when I'm on that, I combine those adventures with some outdoor activity. Be that hiking, power/speed walking, running (recently started on that) or cycling. As the trip report (still delayed sorry, it is typed up and awaiting a further round of editing etc before I'll be ready to publish it) will reveal from my recent adventure, even on the red pen fests and with a case in tow, I did a lot of exploring between trains/trams/Metro/Underground etc.

The 'big railway' is where I spend much of my time and where my interest is when it comes to the railway. There are heritage lines I want to do, and things on ones I've already done that I haven't ticked off yet. There's those two halts on the SVR for example, I'd like to do those and do some exploring from there. I couldn't justify doing the SVR just for the trains, for example, and I haven't done much of an explore of Bridgnorth yet. So I could make a lot of value out of a day ticket on the SVR, and I hope to do so at some point this year.

Not all railways of a heritage nature have such options, in my view, and those that do are sometimes rather limited thus making it hard to justify the huge cost of a heritage line ticket. This applies equally to just about all days out, all fares have to be justified by combining multiple objectives into the day out. Even a trip to a National Trust/English Heritage/whatever location would have to feature more than just the place I'm visiting, there'd have to be some outdoor activity included in the day out.

Those lines that offer little more than a steam train ride and a cafe at each end, they will be the lines that fall first. The big players such as the SVR and the NYMR, they'll last much longer and it could well end up being that a lot of lines close. If they do, then re-purposing them is important. Converting them to a shared walking/cycling route would be very much the purpose in my mind!

 

[341o2]

I highly doubt combustible fuel will be banned any time soon. The larger problem is finding a suitable alternative to coal as it becomes ever more expensive, though progress seems to be being made on that front.

The biggest users of coal are the cement and steel industries. All those building materials for those thousands of new houses the country needs,
Post #52 made me smile, and yes, the heritage rail industry is concerned regarding being under fire from environmentalists.

 

[Ken H]

Another crowd puller is a decent model railway.
Devon Rail Centre at Bickleigh have some old carriages converted. They have a model railway running end to end of several old MK1's. They even thought of little kids providing those plastic stools parents buy so kids can reach the bathroom sink so they can see the trains.
Its all behind plastic screen so little fingers cant break stuff.
another Mk1 converted into a kids playroom - useful when it rains.
But then Devon Rail Centre is set up as a kids day out with no pretence of being authentic.

 

[Titfield]

Just to comment a bit about the points raised by @Techniquest (rather than quoting it all).

IMHO the management of many HRs do not spend enough time focused on improving the customer experience particularly the features of the experience which increase the perception of value for money and the "enjoyment factor".

Whilst for some customers a ride behind a steam loco, a cup of tea in a converted carriage and a wander around a small shop is enough, for many it simply doesnt justify the fare charged. The appeal needs to be built whether that means the railway itself (museums?) or complementary attractions close by. I do wonder how many visitors are impressed by the "museums" of many heritage railways. To me a lot of them are just collections of ephemera that do not really tell a story in an engaging way.

How many heritage railways give a really good representation of the period they are meant to represent? Somethings are unavoidable ( paying by credit card for example ) but sometimes the intrusion is due to a lack of thought / consideration rather than necessity. I also have to say that there is far too much "junk" around heritage railways that degrades the experience. I know many volunteers say that the junk is valuable spares that will be needed eventually and there is a lack of undercover storage but even so I think it needs to be seen through the eyes of the visitor. Piles of rotting sleepers or carriage wheel sets with brambles growing through them hardly suggest that these are valuable spares.

 

[notverydeep]

That routing has some very dangerous road junctions with limited visibility. The Junction of the B3351 with the lane that leads to the National Trust Purbeck Office and thence to the Ulwell Road, or the junction of the B3351 where it meets the Ulwell Road where coming from the ferry the road forks; straight on for Corfe Castle (B3351) or left for Swanage down towards Ulwell. The current junction of the A351 and B3351 at the foot of Corfe Castle itself (where the NT visitor centre) is also quite dangerous for traffic coming from the B3351 and traffic queues considerably there in the Summer. Building a road would require a land grab as well as crossing the railway line. I think (but am not sure) that the road after the Norden level crossing is for Perenco traffic only but in any case I suspect some of the land is NT owned which may create purchase issues.

Having been in a queue at this junction many summer afternoons over the last 50 years, from a child in the back seat in the late 1970s to attempting to subdue my own children from the driver's seat after a day on Knowle Beach last year, I have good experience of the downsides of this junction! I'm also aware that the B3351 could be linked to the oil road with only about 300 metres of new road along the boundary of field adjacent to the Dorset Adventure Park (great mud trail by the way). I have observed that the queue has rarely reached the lengths it normally did in the late 1970s and early 1980s, partlly as Purbeck's beaches have declined in popularity since this time, with increased availability of low cost package holidays to beaches with more consistently warm weather in Spain and elsewhere and partly because of the higher capacity of the 1994 built vessel on the Sandbanks Ferry.

You may be right about land ownership, but such a re-route of the road could suit the National Trust by taking some of the conflicting traffic moves away from the Castle visitor centre. As a transport planner (railways not roads), I have evaluated several schemes that have not gone ahead because they simply relocate queuing to a worse location, which is why I suspect that could be the case here. Potentially, by prioritising traffic from Studland (which joining at the Norden roundabout would do) might cause more afternoon queuing on the A351 back through Corfe village, where the existing arrangement leading to the queue on the B3351 takes the some of the stationary traffic and polution away from the village centre.

Returning back to topic and the risk to the future of the Swanage railway itself, I use it occasionally from Norden, but visiting Swanage several times each summer (and despite working in the rail industry), I mostly drive. This is partly as it is usually possible to park within a reasonable distance of the beach and having a car allows me to bring the 'stuff' that the children want to have on the beach, plus it allows for driving up to the Durlston Country Park (recommended), but mainly because the railway is simply far too expensive to be anything other than an occasional treat. Costing more than £50 for a family including parking at Norden, the park and ride service will only be attractive to those for whom the train ride is a key feature of the day, but being in a popular tourist area the number is probably sufficient to keep this railway alive. There is clearly potential longer distance visitor traffic with the through service to Wareham and beyond - as shown by the South Western through service, but it isn't clear to me that this can be achieved at a cost that can be covered by the potential extra revenue...

 

[MisterSheeps]

Availability of volunteers is as critical to the sector as availability of fare paying passengers. Less volunteers leads to more paid staff.

My brother recently started as a volunteer on a preserved line ... to do that he had to join the supporters association, get several days training in necessary bureaucracy, and only then do something useful. That takes a commitment many people may not want ... taster volunteer days would at least give an idea of the organisation, friendliness & worthiness of volunteering.

 

[Techniquest]

Just to comment a bit about the points raised by @Techniquest (rather than quoting it all).

IMHO the management of many HRs do not spend enough time focused on improving the customer experience particularly the features of the experience which increase the perception of value for money and the "enjoyment factor".

[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately I only have a limited amount of time to reply today, so apologies for not going into much detail here. I would have to agree with you though, and a good example of this is when I am going to be in Dorset on a family holiday in June. The Swanage Railway could do with a revisit, I haven't been for years and it would be ideal for visiting Corfe Castle. However, the railway has not featured in any of my pre-planning of things to do, but the more usual tourist stuff has. Stuff like West Bay, Durdle Door, Lulworth Cove and if I have my way, I'll also get some hiking in along the coastal path.

Which, for someone who has some level of interest in railways, is disappointing. The Swanage line is so lacking in interest, especially for the fares charged, that I'd rather go to the tourist trap places! Mind you, I might try and encourage a detour to get Seaton Tramway done on the way over into Devon, as I haven't done that one and it could be interesting!

Whilst for some customers a ride behind a steam loco, a cup of tea in a converted carriage and a wander around a small shop is enough, for many it simply doesnt justify the fare charged. The appeal needs to be built whether that means the railway itself (museums?) or complementary attractions close by. I do wonder how many visitors are impressed by the "museums" of many heritage railways. To me a lot of them are just collections of ephemera that do not really tell a story in an engaging way.

[/QUOTE]

Museums and me don't tend to go hand in hand, although I appreciate some of them are quite good. The one I want to do is the transport museum in London again, I haven't been since at least 2004 and I'd imagine it would be fun to do. Of course, I will be combining that with some serious cardio around London, like I said earlier every single trip has to have a lot of value for money!

How many heritage railways give a really good representation of the period they are meant to represent? Somethings are unavoidable ( paying by credit card for example ) but sometimes the intrusion is due to a lack of thought / consideration rather than necessity. I also have to say that there is far too much "junk" around heritage railways that degrades the experience. I know many volunteers say that the junk is valuable spares that will be needed eventually and there is a lack of undercover storage but even so I think it needs to be seen through the eyes of the visitor. Piles of rotting sleepers or carriage wheel sets with brambles growing through them hardly suggest that these are valuable spares.

Agreed only too much here, some places resemble a queue at a scrap merchant's premises than an active railway!

There are some lines that really appeal, like the Keith & Dufftown and that one out of Aviemore. I would be doing them in combination with some hiking when I finally get them done of course, and I would imagine plenty of others would like to do the same!

 

[Titfield]

Having been in a queue at this junction many summer afternoons over the last 50 years, from a child in the back seat in the late 1970s to attempting to subdue my own children from the driver's seat after a day on Knowle Beach last year, I have good experience of the downsides of this junction! I'm also aware that the B3351 could be linked to the oil road with only about 300 metres of new road along the boundary of field adjacent to the Dorset Adventure Park (great mud trail by the way). I have observed that the queue has rarely reached the lengths it normally did in the late 1970s and early 1980s, partlly as Purbeck's beaches have declined in popularity since this time, with increased availability of low cost package holidays to beaches with more consistently warm weather in Spain and elsewhere and partly because of the higher capacity of the 1994 built vessel on the Sandbanks Ferry.

You may be right about land ownership, but such a re-route of the road could suit the National Trust by taking some of the conflicting traffic moves away from the Castle visitor centre. As a transport planner (railways not roads), I have evaluated several schemes that have not gone ahead because they simply relocate queuing to a worse location, which is why I suspect that could be the case here. Potentially, by prioritising traffic from Studland (which joining at the Norden roundabout would do) might cause more afternoon queuing on the A351 back through Corfe village, where the existing arrangement leading to the queue on the B3351 takes the some of the stationary traffic and polution away from the village centre.

Returning back to topic and the risk to the future of the Swanage railway itself, I use it occasionally from Norden, but visiting Swanage several times each summer (and despite working in the rail industry), I mostly drive. This is partly as it is usually possible to park within a reasonable distance of the beach and having a car allows me to bring the 'stuff' that the children want to have on the beach, plus it allows for driving up to the Durlston Country Park (recommended), but mainly because the railway is simply far too expensive to be anything other than an occasional treat. Costing more than £50 for a family including parking at Norden, the park and ride service will only be attractive to those for whom the train ride is a key feature of the day, but being in a popular tourist area the number is probably sufficient to keep this railway alive. There is clearly potential longer distance visitor traffic with the through service to Wareham and beyond - as shown by the South Western through service, but it isn't clear to me that this can be achieved at a cost that can be covered by the potential extra revenue...

Thanks for this detailed viewpoint.

(1) I too have been travelling to Swanage for over 50 years both as a child and as an adult. I definitely agree with the remarks you have made. Certainly low cost flights / packages have reduced the number of holiday makers but the number of day trippers remains high. The 50 bus from Bournemouth goes from strength to strength and there are some good value family and group tickets available. Certainly I think the higher capacity ferry has made a difference too and they seem to be able to load / unload cars more efficiently than on the previous ferry. One of the growth areas is in the camping near Harmans Cross but SR seem unable to really tap into this market. They did offer multi day tickets aimed at campers but the take up was poor.

(2) One thing the National Trust is looking at is building a large car park at Norden and running a minibus shuttle service to the Studland beaches because the Studland car parks are under threat from erosion / rising sea levels. They made need to consider putting peak time only traffic lights on the Norden roundabout to avoid the scenario you describe.

(3) Yes Swanage Railway is an expensive treat for 2 X 25 minute journeys. NB You do know that if you have a PRIV card there is a priv concession for you on SR?

(4) I can not see the Wareham extension being viable based on the additional revenue it will generate. It adds to cost and complexity considerably.

A couple more responses to @Techniquest

The Swanage branch line isn't the most interesting I have to admit. It isn't exactly helped by the negative impression generated by the line side store at Herston Halt and the "linear scrap yards" near Harmans Cross and at Norden. The most interesting bits to me are a) looking in the back gardens of the houses along the line as you come into Swanage b) waving at the campers in the fields by Harmans Cross c) seeing Corfe Castle from the train. There is some interesting wildlife along the line but unless you know what to look out for you will probably miss it.

TBH I dont think museums are high on anyones agenda and have limited appeal unless they are highly interactive and have truly engaging displays. Railway ephemera isnt that. Sorry if that offends any railway museum volunteers but be honest - how many visitors do you get and how long do they spend looking around. Many visitors are just "killing time" until the next train.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Catering i would let to a contractor to run. Rely on the rent income.

My heritage line does this. Unfortunately the prices in the cafe went up and the quality of the food and drink went down. This reflects badly on the railway as many are not aware the cafe is run separately.

My brother recently started as a volunteer on a preserved line ... to do that he had to join the supporters association, get several days training in necessary bureaucracy, and only then do something useful.

This is not unusual anymore even if you just want to paint a fence. With modern competency systems being introduced training and assessments are becoming increasingly necessary.

could well end up being that a lot of lines close. If they do, then re-purposing them is important. Converting them to a shared walking/cycling route would be very much the purpose in my mind!

We’ve already had Sustrans (excuse me while I spit) sniffing around part of our land. So far we’ve defeated them.

 

[Titfield]

My heritage line does this. Unfortunately the prices in the cafe went up and the quality of the food and drink went down. This reflects badly on the railway as many are not aware the cafe is run separately.

To me this shows a failure of the process in contracting out the catering. The contract should define the minimum food offering, the maximum prices, the opening hours and other service levels. There should also be a process for checking the food quality. If the standards are not met then there should be a remedial time and if that fails then the contract is terminated. This to me illustrates though why Heritage Railways need individuals experienced in very specific parts of the business (for example retail or catering) to ensure the railway does not become a hostage to fortune.

 

[notverydeep]

(3) Yes Swanage Railway is an expensive treat for 2 X 25 minute journeys. NB You do know that if you have a PRIV card there is a priv concession for you on SR?

Yes, but sadly I missed out on PRIV in my particular corner of the Rail Industry by joining in 1997 - about a year too late. Such is life...

 

[paul1609]

Yes, but sadly I missed out on PRIV in my particular corner of the Rail Industry by joining in 1997 - about a year too late. Such is life...

Can't speak for the Swanage but always worth asking, at some railways (or with some ticket sellers) any sort of big railway id will do!