If you could make just one infrastructure improvement in Manchester…

[Purple Orange]

What one infrastructure improvement would singularly do the most to increase capacity through Manchester? What would you recommend and why?

Rules of engagement:

1. Knocking down the arena and building a larger Victoria is not allowed.
2. Four tracking Castlefield is also not permitted.
3. It must be focused on the existing network - therefore no fantasy underground tunnels.

 

[Howardh]

A circular route linking the north of Manchester to Piccadilly/airport line at Ardwick. Yes, it's the long way round but units could then go Salford Crescent, Victoria, and join the southbound line at Ardwick to the airport avoiding the corridor, and avoiding having to call at Deansgate/0xford rd or being delayed there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If (1) and (2) cannot ever happen, close and lift the Ordsall Chord and turn it into a linear garden, cycleway or something. It has caused unending harm to the network's resilience.

Could I suggest reopening and wiring the west-north Ardwick curve, allowing services to run from Picc main trainshed via Vic to the west, allowing Barrow, Windermere and Scotland to still run into Picc via Vic and not Castlefield? The two Blackpools would still use Castlefield, and so the service on the CLC could be improved with the freed-up paths. I think this would have been a far, far better bet for connecting Picc to Vic than Ordsall.

Bonus: stick a station on it: Manchester Sportcity, it runs right past. "Manchester East Parkway"?

 

[tbtc]

Salford Regent Station

Build a four platform station at the back of the Regent Retail Park, by where the A5066 (Oldfield Road) crosses the lines, it doesn’t have to be in the short bit of four tracked line, west of the junction would suffice

This would be an interchange between the Chat Moss and Bolton lines and permit passengers from such routes to switch to services to Victoria or Castlefield/Piccadilly

There’s therefore less need for the precious direct links from everywhere to everywhere, since a lot more journeys could be done by changing trains here, away from the hubbub of existing busy stations, it could even function as an “Interchange only” station if access were to be an issue

Plus it’s more convenient for the jobs etc of Salford Quays, I’m sure Mr Burnham would arrange a shuttle bus (I considered naming it after the Quays but it’s probably too far… Salford Quays Parkway , anyone?)

 

[Howardh]

If (1) and (2) cannot ever happen, close and lift the Ordsall Chord and turn it into a linear garden, cycleway or something. It has caused unending harm to the network's resilience.

Could I suggest reopening and wiring the west-north Ardwick curve, allowing services to run from Picc main trainshed via Vic to the west, allowing Barrow, Windermere and Scotland to still run into Picc via Vic and not Castlefield? The two Blackpools would still use Castlefield, and so the service on the CLC could be improved with the freed-up paths. I think this would have been a far, far better bet for connecting Picc to Vic than Ordsall.

Bonus: stick a station on it: Manchester Sportcity, it runs right past. "Manchester East Parkway"?

Agree and surprised that wasn't done before the Curve was built. However I would keep it as a diversionary route, just in case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree and surprised that wasn't done before the Curve was built. However I would keep it as a diversionary route, just in case.

An extra bonus of that route would be that it could be used as a diversionary route for XC and Avanti if there is a need to close both the Stockport and Styal lines for any reason. From Picc main trainshed via Vic to Chat Moss then onto the WCML at Parkside.

Salford Regent Station

Build a four platform station at the back of the Regent Retail Park, by where the A5066 (Oldfield Road) crosses the lines, it doesn’t have to be in the short bit of four tracked line, west of the junction would suffice

This would be an interchange between the Chat Moss and Bolton lines and permit passengers from such routes to switch to services to Victoria or Castlefield/Piccadilly

There’s therefore less need for the precious direct links from everywhere to everywhere, since a lot more journeys could be done by changing trains here, away from the hubbub of existing busy stations, it could even function as an “Interchange only” station if access were to be an issue

Plus it’s more convenient for the jobs etc of Salford Quays, I’m sure Mr Burnham would arrange a shuttle bus (I considered naming it after the Quays but it’s probably too far… Salford Quays Parkway , anyone?)

Don't most services from the Bolton side go via the direct line to Vic nearer the A6 and not down the Windsor Link then left to Vic per the Chat Moss ones? Is there capacity to route them all the latter way and mothball the direct line, which would be necessary for your idea (though it isn't a terrible one).

Here's another similar one - relocate the Salford Crescent signalling centre and rebuild Salford Crescent as two long unidirectional islands for quality cross-platform interchange between Vic and Castlefield services, though admittedly not Chat Moss ones. The idea would be to timetable them to be one behind the other with a dwell long enough for both to be there for bi-directional interchange twice or four times an hour.

 

[zwk500]

4-Tracking Castlefield may not be allowed, but Piccadilly P14/15 is certainly feasible.

I don't think the other Ardwick curve would be a helpful thing. If Piccadilly platforms are ruled out then I'd say Rejigging Slade Lane - Stockport as paired by use, not direction. Ideally the fasts would be on the west side of the formation so that trains from Buxton and to Denton don't have to mix with the Pendos, but that would require switching the slows from the west to east at Slade Lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the other Ardwick curve would be a helpful thing. If Piccadilly platforms are ruled out then I'd say Rejigging Slade Lane - Stockport as paired by use, not direction. Ideally the fasts would be on the west side of the formation so that trains from Buxton and to Denton don't have to mix with the Pendos, but that would require switching the slows from the west to east at Slade Lane.

That was discussed but it didn't work with Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel which would have to be closed or have services in one direction stopping on the fast lines. Generally I prefer pairing by direction because it makes quality interchange more feasible as well as making it easier to build intermediate local stations as they just go at the sides.

Only way you could really justify closure for these two would be if you put a tramway down the A6, which I'd fully support but I think it's a bit big for the scope of this thread!

 

[Howardh]

I've made my one, but I've another, reopen Mayfield St as Picc 15/16 for a shuttle service to the airport linked by overbridge to 13/14.

Also provide a heated waiting room at Victoria, which arguably is the largest UK station with the fewest pax facilities.

Out of my three, that's the easiest and quickest to do!!!

 

[zwk500]

That was discussed but it didn't work with Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel which would have to be closed or have services in one direction stopping on the fast lines. Generally I prefer pairing by direction because it makes quality interchange more feasible as well as making it easier to build intermediate local stations as they just go at the sides.

Part of this would be to rebuild those two to WCML-style 1+2+1 if space or just an island between the slows if not. Or close them and have a tram/bus service replacing it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of this would be to rebuild those two to WCML-style 1+2+1 if space or just an island between the slows if not.

There isn't space, that's the problem. There isn't even space for an island unless you want a 40mph PSR on the fasts (to slew them around it) which would negate the point somewhat.

Or close them and have a tram/bus service replacing it.

Just having people use the 192 would be seriously retrograde - the 192 wouldn't exist (or would be an infrequent service mostly used by passholders like the bus routes that parallel a couple of Merseyrail routes) if Manchester's rail network was properly developed. Metrolink down the A6 would be a decent replacement, but if we can't knock down Vic and rebuild we definitely can't do that!

If we assume HS2 2B will happen, though, I guess this basically becomes a regional and metro route, and things might be different and that 50mph restriction acceptable?

 

[jfollows]

That was discussed but it didn't work with Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel which would have to be closed or have services in one direction stopping on the fast lines. Generally I prefer pairing by direction because it makes quality interchange more feasible as well as making it easier to build intermediate local stations as they just go at the sides.

Only way you could really justify closure for these two would be if you put a tramway down the A6, which I'd fully support but I think it's a bit big for the scope of this thread!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/manchester-south-remodelling-proposals-historical.241695/ starts with the 1998 proposals which include extra platforms at Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel posted by Signal Head. I still think it's - at best - not value for money and - more likely - a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

A circular route linking the north of Manchester to Piccadilly/airport line at Ardwick. Yes, it's the long way round but units could then go Salford Crescent, Victoria, and join the southbound line at Ardwick to the airport avoiding the corridor, and avoiding having to call at Deansgate/0xford rd or being delayed there.

Ordsall Chord was supposed to remove crossing moves at Piccadilly which it did - and still does for the remaining one train each way per hour - supposedly to increase capacity into/out of Piccadilly to accommodate additional trains in the 2016 Northern franchise which have never been introduced, but the routing via the Chord in itself caused other problems, we will never know whether the full scheme including 15/16 and rebuilt Oxford Road with 4 x 8 car platforms would have overcome these, I suspect partially, but not completely.

This proposal would re-introduce such crossing moves if trains round an Ardwick curve were to go to the Airport

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ordsall Chord was supposed to remove crossing moves at Piccadilly which it did - and still does for the remaining one train each way per hour - supposedly to increase capacity into/out of Piccadilly to accommodate additional trains in the 2016 Northern franchise which have never been introduced, but the routing via the Chord in itself caused other problems, we will never know whether the full scheme including 15/16 and rebuilt Oxford Road with 4 x 8 car platforms would have overcome these, I suspect partially, but not completely.

This proposal would re-introduce such crossing moves if trains round an Ardwick curve were to go to the Airport

I've said it before and will say it again, stop having the tail wag the dog and turn the Airport into a regional-only station. A change onto a dedicated airport service from P11, or the remaining ones from P13, is not a massive encumbrance, it's a short walk much shorter than from "The Station" to either terminal, or if you prefer from Barrow/Windermere you've the option of Preston or guaranteed same-platform at Bolton. There is then no need to cross the formation.

There's even more of a reason not to have the TPEs serve the Airport - the ideal for these would be a ten car hourly train splitting at Carlisle for Glasgow and Edinburgh, there is certainly the demand. Picc could accommodate that on the low-numbered side, the Airport can't.

What that'd leave you is Castlefield being 2 Blackpool, maybe a Southport, the Chat Moss stopper plus all the CLCs (which would allow half hourly locals east of Warrington), an easy fit, potentially you could even rejig to make everything 195 or 331 (bar the Norwich) so you could do things like mark door positions on the platform. All bar the Norwich would form a metro-style stopping service to the Airport from 13 (one EMU onward to Crewe, whichever happens to fit the paths).

It'd also significantly reduce crowding with luggage on P14, as all the long-distance passengers would be removed from there, and there'd be fewer people waiting around for specific trains with Advances, making the whole thing a lot more like an elevated Liverpool Central than what it is now.

 

[Northumbriana]

Six tracking from the Styal line to Piccadilly through platforms with flyover at Ardwick to carry Guide Bridge line trains and to let Stockport bound trains from Castlefield to access the outer Southbound track without getting in the way of WCML trains.

 

[The Planner]

Move Trafford Park.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Move Trafford Park.

I assume you mean move the freight depot so it doesn't have to go through Castlefield? Not a bad idea. I suspect moving the entire industrial district may be too much

 

[The Planner]

I assume you mean move the freight depot so it doesn't have to go through Castlefield? Not a bad idea. I suspect moving the entire industrial district may be too much

Double the size of Port Salford and bolt it on there.

 

[30907]

Grade separate Ordsall Lane Jn.

 

[HSTEd]

Since I can't have a four-track Castlefield corridor and a new unified station on the University of Manchester North campus.....

Metrolink conversion of the line to Warrington Central, simplifying the Manchester-Salford-Ordsall junction complex.

 

[javelin]

A new SW/NE - aligned motorway through Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A new SW/NE - aligned motorway through Manchester.

If I'm not allowed to knock down the Arena and make Vic fit for purpose, you're surely not allowed that. Use the M60.

 

[faltskog36abba]

I've made my one, but I've another, reopen Mayfield St as Picc 15/16 for a shuttle service to the airport linked by overbridge to 13/14.

Also provide a heated waiting room at Victoria, which arguably is the largest UK station with the fewest pax facilities.

Out of my three, that's the easiest and quickest to do!!!

Victoria really needs heated waiting shelters on each platform- Its like a wind tunnel in winter on the through platforms.

If (1) and (2) cannot ever happen, close and lift the Ordsall Chord and turn it into a linear garden, cycleway or something. It has caused unending harm to the network's resilience.

Could I suggest reopening and wiring the west-north Ardwick curve, allowing services to run from Picc main trainshed via Vic to the west, allowing Barrow, Windermere and Scotland to still run into Picc via Vic and not Castlefield? The two Blackpools would still use Castlefield, and so the service on the CLC could be improved with the freed-up paths. I think this would have been a far, far better bet for connecting Picc to Vic than Ordsall.

Bonus: stick a station on it: Manchester Sportcity, it runs right past. "Manchester East Parkway"?

There was a proposal to have a station at Eastlands for Sportcity In the Manchester Hub Rail study-But nothing happened.

 

[geoffk]

Ordsall Lane flyover, to remove conflicting movements Victoria - Chat Moss and Oxford Road - Salford Crescent. There are some drawings around and the only problem might be the gradients required to avoid the road bridges.

 

[CE142]

Between the main Trainshed at Piccadilly and the 13&14 Island, there's probably just enough room to put in a couple of North facing bays, so services from the North can terminate there.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Grade separation of Slade Ln, an additional platform and remodeling of Stockport or Piccadilly 15/16. They're all too important to pick just one so I listed all three.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Between the main Trainshed at Piccadilly and the 13&14 Island, there's probably just enough room to put in a couple of North facing bays, so services from the North can terminate there.

You probably could, but it might be easier to put those at Victoria (at least one is I think planned, butted up against the Arena?)

 

[The Planner]

Grade separation of Slade Ln, an additional platform and remodeling of Stockport or Piccadilly 15/16. They're all too important to pick just one so I listed all three.

What would Stockport solve?

 

[LOL The Irony]

What would Stockport solve?

Allow trains to terminate without having to deal with slade ln and Piccadilly. Passengers for Manchester can then transfer on to other services.

 

[The Planner]

Allow trains to terminate without having to deal with slade ln and Piccadilly. Passengers for Manchester can then transfer on to other services.

Why on earth would you do that?