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"I'm a Signalman, not a Signaller!"

Busaholic

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You've beaten me to it.

Perhaps Bobby should be the official job title. It could be short for Robert or Roberta so not gender specific either! :D
'Bobby' for a policeman historically references Robert, rather than Roberta, Peel though!
 
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TUC

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You've beaten me to it.

Perhaps Bobby should be the official job title. It could be short for Robert or Roberta so not gender specific either! :D
That was certainly the case in The Railway Children :)
 

godfreycomplex

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If the adoption of gender-neutral terms makes people feel more included then it's a good thing in my books. I imagine the old-school crowd may not understand the difference that these sorts of inclusivity measures can make to the approachability of an industry.
Agreed

You never hear these people objecting to being described as signallers when their payslip comes through with signaller written on it. Funny that…
 

Calthrop

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Perhaps we should go to the daftest non-sexist invention. A person who is in charge of a meeting was formerly a 'chairman', but the loonies decided that that mentioned a MAN, and it would be bad to call someone a 'chairwoman' thus we now somehow call said person a 'chair' (just imagine being the chair of a think-tank,whatever that may be). Thus problem solved, the person, male, female or undecided who shovels coal on a steam enging, or puts out fires must surely be called a 'fire'. The person operating signals must be referred to as a 'signal' and someone enforcing the law must be a 'police'.
(My bolding) -- I gather that in, at any rate, the more southerly parts of Scotland, that is indeed the case -- such a person is commonly referred to a 'a polis' (either gender). At least this is so, according to the detective novels by Val McDermid; who comes from that part of the world.
 

Somewhere

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When female orientated jobs have gender neutral titles it will be more equal. The NHS still uses the term Sister for female Charge Nurses
 

Carntyne

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Agreed

You never hear these people objecting to being described as signallers when their payslip comes through with signaller written on it. Funny that…
This. It doesn't matter if someone says they are a signalman, they are a signaller. Facts are facts.
 

VauxhallandI

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Use of the American term "DEI" seems to be a new indicator of those who've latched onto the latest right-wing 'culture wars' babbel imported from across the Atlantic.
Can you expand on what you mean?

The UK institution I work for use this term and the sentiment behind it is as far from far right as you could possibly imagine.
 
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43096

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I can see why some women may be offended by the generic use of 'signalman', but if that terms is reserved for males, and 'signalwoman' for females, if anything that is more inclusive, not less.
So what about those who don't identify as either?
 

Lucy1501

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As a woman, I will do nothing but support the railway becoming more progressive. Historically the industry hasn't been the most friendly to women, and whilst the change in terminology here and there may seem trivial to some, it really does make a huge difference.

In recent years the culture change has been dramatic, and the railway industry is becoming more and more inclusive of us, and all demographics generally.

I have no problem with the term signalman, in my eyes its a dated term but whatever you prefer. What I do have a problem with, is when certain members of the community start refusing to call female signallers anything other than signalmen, and causing massive wars over it generally.

Whilst there has been a massive culture change recently, I've been in boxes where the signallers and various visitors, especially of an older age, are joking about how they refuse to refer to the people staffing the box as anything other than signalmen, no matter how much offense it causes to the female signallers on duty.
 

Busaholic

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When female orientated jobs have gender neutral titles it will be more equal. The NHS still uses the term Sister for female Charge Nurses
And matrons still exist in the NHS too - I wonder if there are any male ones.
 

High Dyke

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Would England's battered batters have had more success if they'd been batsmen?!
They wouldn't have any more success if they were batter puddings!

Meanwhile, I still answer the phone as 'signalman at (xxx) box'. Whilst I get the diversity and inclusion aspect of our modern society, I haven't yet had anyone show me what gender 'ler (as in signaller) is. I am a man and I will always state that. How others address themselves is their choice.

Equally, I was taught to write the term as signalman / signalmen and / signal(wo)man / signal(wo)men Though, I accept it is a bit outdated. Oddly enough on the phone I will refer to the caller by the term they called themselves.
 
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CarrotPie

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Perhaps we should go to the daftest non-sexist invention. A person who is in charge of a meeting was formerly a 'chairman', but the loonies decided that that mentioned a MAN, and it would be bad to call someone a 'chairwoman' thus we now somehow call said person a 'chair' (just imagine being the chair of a think-tank,whatever that may be). Thus problem solved, the person, male, female or undecided who shovels coal on a steam enging, or puts out fires must surely be called a 'fire'. The person operating signals must be referred to as a 'signal' and someone enforcing the law must be a 'police'.
That's one of the funniest things I've read all day! :D
 

coppercapped

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It is a minefield in gendered languages. In German, for example, teacher (male) is Schuler, and teacher (female) is Schulerin. The new compromise, therefore, is Schuler*in, which is considered rather silly even by the most progressive Germans. It does help that the pronoun “sie” translates to both “she” and “they” in English, and unlike English has an undisputed and continuous history of use as a single person pronoun.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have of course “Latinx”, which is considered little more than a slur by most actual Latino people because of the fact that it was invented by English monolinguals trying to make themselves look good, and the fact that the -o suffix can be neuter in Spanish.


Yes.
A minor correction, in German a teacher is a Lehrer or Lehrerin, the being being taught is the Schuler or Schulerin.

There is also the difference between the formal 'Sie' (= you) and the informal 'sie'...

Also in German the word 'Mann' is used in the same way as 'one' would be used in English, e.g., 'Mann muss...' would be 'One must...'.
 

Energy

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Perhaps we should go to the daftest non-sexist invention. A person who is in charge of a meeting was formerly a 'chairman', but the loonies decided that that mentioned a MAN, and it would be bad to call someone a 'chairwoman' thus we now somehow call said person a 'chair' (just imagine being the chair of a think-tank,whatever that may be). Thus problem solved, the person, male, female or undecided who shovels coal on a steam enging, or puts out fires must surely be called a 'fire'. The person operating signals must be referred to as a 'signal' and someone enforcing the law must be a 'police'.
They aren't the same, policeman relates to police, fireman relates to fires, signalman relates to signals..... while chairman doesn't relate to chairs.

Language's main purpose is to convey information. 'The chair of the board' conveys who you are talking about and chair has evolved to have that secondary meaning.

Language does evolve otherwise we'd all still be using thou, and thee. More 'natural' language progression is usually where the old word was rather long, manageress is much more cumbersome to say than manager.

I think signalman -> signaller is a case of this, with the helpful side effect of perhaps attracting more of the other side of the population to the industry.

TLDR language changes.
 

Dieseldriver

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As a woman, I will do nothing but support the railway becoming more progressive. Historically the industry hasn't been the most friendly to women, and whilst the change in terminology here and there may seem trivial to some, it really does make a huge difference.

In recent years the culture change has been dramatic, and the railway industry is becoming more and more inclusive of us, and all demographics generally.

I have no problem with the term signalman, in my eyes its a dated term but whatever you prefer. What I do have a problem with, is when certain members of the community start refusing to call female signallers anything other than signalmen, and causing massive wars over it generally.

Whilst there has been a massive culture change recently, I've been in boxes where the signallers and various visitors, especially of an older age, are joking about how they refuse to refer to the people staffing the box as anything other than signalmen, no matter how much offense it causes to the female signallers on duty.
Agreed. It’s the intent behind it, not the wording itself. If people are deliberately being belligerent/trying to cause offence, that in itself is what causes the offence.
 

JamieL

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There really isn't any excuse for using gendered language to describe most roles in this day and age. It isn't difficult to avoid using such language and helps promote a better culture.
 

Trackman

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Firemen of course, although that terminology isn't really relevant on the modern railway, perserved/heritage railways or steam-hauled railtours excepted.
Going back to Firemen as mentioned in this thread, my great-great-grandfather was a fireman. Thought he was a fire 'fighter' or a railway fireman. After some digging about turns out he was a fireman at a colliery, stoking the boiler.
 

GusB

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What is DEI and if it is American, I object more to American terms terms and spellings being used in our la garage than things like spokesperson and signaller.
Diversity, equity and inclusion. I had to Google it because I also had no idea what it meant.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Going back to Firemen as mentioned in this thread, my great-great-grandfather was a fireman. Thought he was a fire 'fighter' or a railway fireman. After some digging about turns out he was a fireman at a colliery, stoking the boiler.

Don‘t ever make the mistake of referring to a railway fireman as a ‘stoker’, in my experience it’s taken as a derogatory remark for someone in the habit of over-firing the locomotive and creating unnecessary black smoke / blowing off. (In the US it seemed to be a more general term for fireman?)

On another example - the railway still refers to ‘Pilotman Working’ presumably because it is long-accepted terminology for a very safety-critical type of degraded signalling operation? To my mind ‘pilot working’ implies either a helper locomotive or an assisting driver who is conducting someone over a route they don’t know.
 

Horizon22

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We’ve got a 600+ page thread that’s being running for 8 years called “A career as a signaller”. This is a neutral term that has been in use for decades. Really think people are causing a fuss over nothing.
 

domcoop7

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Language changes with the times, it is what it is.

The history of the word is that "man" meant human beings of any gender. As in "makind" or landing on the moon and saying "one small step for man". The specific gendered term for a female was "wif". So a female human was a "wif-man" when became "woman". See also "wife" and "midwife".

The specific gendered term for a male was "wer". With the initial 'w' pronounced as a 'vee' sound (like in German) it lasts today as "virile". With the initial 'w' pronounced as in modern English like 'w as in water' it has the word 'werewolf' (a male human that can turn into a wolf).

Gendered job-titles (themselves now still in use but increasingly sounding archaic and old fashioned) don't use the word "man" to mark them, but have gendered suffixes such as Actor / Actress, Seamster / Seamstress, that come from "master" or "mister" and "mistress".

These distinctions would have made perfect sense and led to no ambiguity whatsoever to vernacular speakers of English in the 18th Century / Georgian times, and would have been obvious and understood in the 19th Century / Victorian times. Contemporaneously, as we don't tend to use the underlying words in day to day speech, we don't really understand why the words are as they are, other than that's what we were taught when younger. When words enter this phase (of just being used but with nobody knowing the reason) they tend to get dropped, or change, or subject to what is called "hyper-correction" - where they sound kind of wrong to prestige speakers so people use what they think is "right" instead.

So we say the Arctic Circle (with two 'k' sounds) because it sounded "right" to pronounce it that way in the 15th Century, even though before then it was pronounced "artic" because speakers hyper-corrected it, it came from the Latin "articus" (which itself came from Greek Arktikos, which has two 'k's) and originally meant "something to do with bears" (from the star constellation of the Great Bear which is in the north). The word "bear" in Welsh is "arth" even today.

The current prestige speakers (politicians generally - even though most of us dislike them) are moving away from gendered language. Subconsciously we hear people in a leadership or academic role using these terms, so if you don't want to sound like you're one of the people at the coal face you will also use the same types of words. At that point using the older words marks you out as unsophisticated or a dinosaur and you either don't use them at all or "code switch" and say 'signalman' down the pub, but 'signaller' at a work meeting. Of course putting it like that sounds a bit jarring and no doubt many will say "I'm not speaking in a particular way because I heard someone else do it! I am speaking how I choose to speak!", except we all do it whether we like it or not, because language it about communicating with others and if we all made our own words up nobody would understand us.
 

infobleep

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Not sure if I use signaller or signalman. In my defence I own historic railway handbooks so that might influence what sticks in my mind.

If I was working in the industry, I might just use the persons job title, if referring to someone in perticular or the more well used generalised term.
 

coppercapped

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Not quite. The word that means "one" is "man".

"Mann" means man or husband.
In principle you are correct, but there are a range of common uses and one can go down this rabbit hole a long way. I would just point out that the German word 'man' can be used as an indefinite pronoun which can refer to one person or also to people in general (in the sense of 'mankind') where German would use 'die Leute' (people) or 'die Menschen'. ('Ich bin auch nur ein Mensch' meaning 'I'm only human')

A husband is often referred to as an 'Ehemann', if the relationship is clear then, as you say, 'Mann' as in 'mein Mann'. However Mann can also be used in expressions such as 'der (kleine) Mann auf der Straße' which would translate as 'the man in the street' so not necessarily a husband.

Languages and meanings are complicated...
 

Train_manager

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As a woman, I will do nothing but support the railway becoming more progressive. Historically the industry hasn't been the most friendly to women, and whilst the change in terminology here and there may seem trivial to some, it really does make a huge difference.

In recent years the culture change has been dramatic, and the railway industry is becoming more and more inclusive of us, and all demographics generally.

I have no problem with the term signalman, in my eyes its a dated term but whatever you prefer. What I do have a problem with, is when certain members of the community start refusing to call female signallers anything other than signalmen, and causing massive wars over it generally.

Whilst there has been a massive culture change recently, I've been in boxes where the signallers and various visitors, especially of an older age, are joking about how they refuse to refer to the people staffing the box as anything other than signalmen, no matter how much offense it causes to the female signallers on duty.
Only last month I spoke with a Bobby and they said "signalman". They was very proud of the fact. It was a ROC.

First time I hear that in 10 years and they had 100% a female voice.


But NR changing "pilotman" to "pilot"is a bit of a joke. Will cause confusion.

Cos "pilot" on the railway means something totally different.
 

Egg Centric

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I personally also don’t care (and I am male, yes), so I just use whatever people ask me to. If one were to insist on the use of the “man” suffix on others, then one should have a valid argument as to why it is preferable as opposed to “the goddamn liberals”.

The general argument for this sort of thing - which I also generally agree with although have no opinion here - is "change is effort". Something with close to zero return is worth zero investment, and changing the name of something is never going to be cost free.

In this respect "ideological" name changes are substantially more expensive than "organic" ones since the former require pro active effort while the latter just need the fashionable term to be the default while the unfashionable term gradually falls out of use, perhaps over decades.

In this particular case since the change has already occurred it would of course be ridiculous to change back.
 

LowLevel

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Don‘t ever make the mistake of referring to a railway fireman as a ‘stoker’, in my experience it’s taken as a derogatory remark for someone in the habit of over-firing the locomotive and creating unnecessary black smoke / blowing off. (In the US it seemed to be a more general term for fireman?)

On another example - the railway still refers to ‘Pilotman Working’ presumably because it is long-accepted terminology for a very safety-critical type of degraded signalling operation? To my mind ‘pilot working’ implies either a helper locomotive or an assisting driver who is conducting someone over a route they don’t know.
Where I am in the East Midlands a crew member provided to conduct someone over a route they don't sign has always been a route conductor, regardless of whether they're a driver or a guard (who of course for my part of the company is called a Senior Conductor!). Just different terminology in different areas I guess.

Pilot(man until recently) had always been for single line working and so on.

As an interesting anecdote some years back the heritage railway I volunteer at was rewriting the rulebook and the question of terminology for signalman, which had always used the historical phrase, came up.

Upon asking the various female signalmen their thoughts they unanimously declared they wished to keep the historical job title as a heritage operation and so that's what happened.
 

61653 HTAFC

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My late grandfather and great uncle were both Signallers in the Army and Navy respectively during the Second World War. Operating railway signals is a different job, so should have a different title.

Not quite. The word that means "one" is "man".

"Mann" means man or husband.
While we're being pedantic about German grammar, the word meaning "one" is "Man" rather than "man" as in German all nouns have a capital initial letter rather than just proper nouns in English.
 
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