Improved services to Belmont

[leytongabriel]

The levelling up funding annoucment included 14m for doubling the frequnecy of trains to Belmont to serve the development of the Royal Marsden Hospital Oncology Centre.
Didn't specifiy if this was for bringing the second platform back into use or subsidising extra services.

 

[Gloster]

Do they really need a quarter-hourly service? To increase the frequency over the whole branch from half-hourly to quarter-hourly you would need to redouble back to Epsom Downs, or at least most of the way to it. Alternatively they might be intending to bring the second platform back into use in order to have Belmont terminators. The cynic in me wonders if this is one of those projects set up to be cut down so that you end with a few cosmetic changes on disability grounds and staff in attendance for more of the day than at present.

 

[PGAT]

Do they really need a quarter-hourly service? To increase the frequency over the whole branch from half-hourly to quarter-hourly you would need to redouble back to Epsom Downs, or at least most of the way to it. Alternatively they might be intending to bring the second platform back into use in order to have Belmont terminators. The cynic in me wonders if this is one of those projects set up to be cut down so that you end with a few cosmetic changes on disability grounds and staff in attendance for more of the day than at present.

I feel like Belmont does have untapped potential as a rail station. 4tph will definitely induce demand, and probably enough to justify the costs. I’m assuming the plan isn’t to double the whole branch, just the 1km between Belmont and the junction where the line currently singles.

 

[Gloster]

I am not familiar with the line, but from my Quail diagram it is only about half a mile. Sutton is at 14.71, the double to single connection at 15.50 and Belmont at 16.01. Unless you are going to limit trains to Belmont and leave the rest half-hourly, it would need a couple more miles of doubling. Having every other train terminate at Belmont requires either quite a lot of extra signalling if the trains go onto the single line, using the other platform as a dead end or installing a reversing siding to the south of the station.

 

[PGAT]

I am familiar with the branch. With the current way signalling is only one train is allowed on the branch at a time, and trains have to wait for the road at Sutton Platform 4. If you wanted extra services to Belmont you would have to double the track up to the station. Reversing sidings aren’t necessary as trains would hypothetically reverse at either platform. You wouldn’t need “miles more of doubling” as the track singles below Ventnor Road which is halfway between Sutton and Belmont - so only 1km of doubling is required.

 

[JonathanH]

Given there aren't any Sutton terminators any more from the West Croydon route for most of the day and the gap between down and up Epsom Downs trains is 22 minutes, this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Was all this planned when Sutton had the extra terminating trains and no one has told the government that they don't run any more?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Given there aren't any Sutton terminators any more from the West Croydon route and the gap between down and up Epsom Downs trains is 22 minutes, this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Was all this planned when Sutton had the extra terminating trains and no one has told the government that they don't run any more?

There are a few terminating services in the peaks, I do wonder if this 15 minutely frequency would just be in the peaks as an extension to these or if all day is guaranteed?

 

[JonathanH]

There are a few terminating services in the peaks, I do wonder if this 15 minutely frequency would just be in the peaks as an extension to these or if all day is guaranteed?

Indeed, I noticed that after I had initially posted. However, there isn't scope in those timings to get to Belmont and back, and they don't run all day.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Indeed, I noticed that after I had initially posted. However, there isn't scope in those timings to get to Belmont and back.

We could be looking at a full timetable re-cast then couldn't we? ( Let's not on this thread... that would belong in speculative! )

 

[PGAT]

Was all this planned when Sutton had the extra terminating trains and no one has told the government that they don't run any more?

The article was published today (https://www.sutton.gov.uk/-/trains-...s-sutton-wins-14-million-levelling-up-funding) and off-peak terminators to Sutton haven't run in 3 years. It seems that these services would be off-peak and simply be extensions to the Sutton terminators, but specific details are limited.

 

[30907]

Was all this planned when Sutton had the extra terminating trains and no one has told the government that they don't run any more?

Or on the assumption that by the time anything happens the service pattern will have changed again. After all, presumably a doubled service will increase passenger numbers, and Sutton has lost 40% of its offpeak Southern service since Covid.

 

[PGAT]

When is the upgrade going to be completed assuming that it's confirmed?

 

[NSEUser]

Trains from Sutton to the London Cancer Hub to double in frequency

Funding has been secured to double the number of trains running between Sutton and Belmont, where a major centre for treating cancer is being developed.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

“Along with more trains, Belmont station will also be improved with step-free access, better wayfinding signage and new walking and cycling routes to the London Cancer Hub, which is about a 10-minute walk from the railway station. A shuttle bus also links the cancer site and the railway for patients to use.

Apart from needing capacity for the London Cancer Hub, in terms of levelling up, the nearby Shanklin housing estate is in the top 20% of deprived areas in the country. The lack of reliable public transport is a known factor in making it harder for people to commute to work and hence lift their own income levels.

The line from Sutton to Belmont also runs south to Epsom Downs mostly as a single-track railway, which restricts how many trains can run along the line. A previous £32 million proposal to double-track the railway all the way between Sutton and Belmont and build a turnback siding to allow up to six trains per hour failed to secure funding, so Sutton council reapplied with a cheaper scheme.

Although the new scheme doesn’t restore the double-track to the railway, it does cover the cost of building a turnback siding just to the south of Belmont station. That delivers enough space along the line to be able to handle four trains per hour between Belmont and Sutton.

In effect, they’ve split the planned upgrade into two phases.

This first phase builds the turnback siding to allow four trains per hour. If demand rises to levels that require it, then they could, in theory, apply for funding to double-track the railway and increase the number of trains per hour on the line to six per hour.

Along with offering more trains an hour between Belmont and Sutton, the turnback siding will also enable additional direct services between Belmont and London Victoria to be added.
There is also an unrelated plan to extend tram services to Sutton, and potentially further south to Belmont, but at the moment, TfL doesn’t have any money to pay for the first stage, let alone the extension.”

 

[cle]

Apart from needing capacity for the London Cancer Hub, in terms of levelling up, the nearby Shanklin housing estate is in the top 20% of deprived areas in the country. The lack of reliable public transport is a known factor in making it harder for people to commute to work and hence lift their own income levels.

Random side thing, but wouldn't this be the bottom 20%?! Feels celebratory.

I can't see 6tph every being worth it, even if these 4 are a useful way to add more to Sutton (and clear them).

 

[Timmyd]

This is a solution in search of a problem - the current service on the branch is more than adequate (and the best it has had for many years) and there are good local bus services.

 

[PGAT]

The reason why the service is more than adequate is because very few actually take the train BECAUSE of the inadequate service.

Hatch End has a similar population to Belmont but has double the frequency and better travel connections and a more reliable service.

 

[Class 170101]

Presumably, as well, it will have to be an extensdion of an existing service simply because there isn't room on the Mainline. eg Victoria to West Croydon (no doubt someone will find something else).

 

[PGAT]

Presumably, as well, it will have to be an extensdion of an existing service simply because there isn't room on the Mainline. eg Victoria to West Croydon (no doubt someone will find something else).

There are still a lot of empty paths in the peak hours as a result of COVID so there is room.

 

[Class 170101]

There are still a lot of empty paths in the peak hours as a result of COVID so there is room.

But do Southern have the units to exploit these paths and will NR sell them, preferring instead to maximise buffers for performance?

 

[zwk500]

But do Southern have the units to exploit these paths and will NR sell them, preferring instead to maximise buffers for performance?

AFAIK NR cannot refuse to offer paths if the capacity exists.

 

[PGAT]

But do Southern have the units to exploit these paths

They run enough diagrams to extend them off-peak (apart from the peak London Bridge to Sutton services, which ceased late 2020) they don't because of staff costs

 

[TRXsouth]

Does Southern have sufficient capacity in its already tight Class 377 fleet to provide the extra services terminating at the enhanced Belmont, as well as continuing the through trains to Epsom Downs? Or does this project provide the Mayor of London with a way to extend London Overground‘s network by extending the current West Croydon terminators to add calls at Waddon, Wallington, Carshalton Beeches, Sutton and Belmont, then into the turnback siding for return?

 

[PGAT]

Yes they do, but not by much. The real question is will the DfT allow GTR to spend more money and requiring more drivers to pay.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm all for growing such routes, but how much rolling stock capacity to Southern actually have to do so, given that they've just sent their 455's to the cutters yard.

 

[PGAT]

I'm all for growing such routes, but how much rolling stock capacity to Southern actually have to do so, given that they've just sent their 455's to the cutters yard.

They run all 4 diagrams of the Victoria - Sutton services in the peak, certainly they have room in the fleet for one more.

 

[duncanp]

One of the motivators behind the proposed Tramlink extension to Sutton was to continue the line beyond Sutton town centre to serve the Royal Marsden Hospital.

Now that the tram extension is very unlikely, at least in the short term, redoubling the Epsom Downs line, at least in part, is a considerably cheaper option.

As is extending TfL bus 164 (terminus Sutton) and/or Tfl bus 280 (terminus Belmont Station) to the hospital, or diverting Tfl bus 80 (terminus Highdown & Downview Prison)