• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

In-between strike days and intermediate days - why no service?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,211
Location
UK
SWR must have a well staffed planning department then. Lucky them.
It also helps that their Dec timetable isn't much different from the May one. Whereas at Northern and several other operators, there are substantial changes.

It's one of those seeming inconsistencies in the situation. The planning team is described as both unable to devise a plan, so there's no service, but also putting in 'all the hours they can'. Not quite apparent how both can apply.
Because if the planning teams are under-resourced, they can be putting in all the hours god sends and still not have enough time to produce a new 'shoulder' day plan.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Birmingham

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2020
Messages
500
Location
United Kingdom
West Midlands Trains will be running a strike service this Sunday, so that's nothing Birmingham - Hereford, Birmingham - Shrewsbury, or Snow Hill lines (Worcester - Birmingham - Stratford).

It will also only run between 0700 - 1900 from 19 December to 2 January on the above regional routes, excluding 1 January which will again see the regional routes with no service.
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,667
SUNDAY 18
There is a very limited timetable in place for Sunday 18 December, these services can be found below. All other routes do not have service or replacement buses on this day. We advice you check before you travel on Sunday 18 December.

Middlesbrough - Hartlepool - Newcastle
Darlington - Saltburn
Liverpool - Manchester Airport
Manchester Oxford Road/Piccadilly - Manchester Airport
Blackpool - Manchester
Leeds - Harrogate
Sheffield - Lincoln
Sheffield - Nottingham
Leeds - Selby and York
Leeds - Ilkley
Leeds - Skipton
Leeds - Doncaster and Sheffield
Sheffield - Huddersfield
Leeds - Bradford Forster Square


Journey planners will be updated soon with details of the very limited services that are running on days of industrial action.
Nothing across the Pennines then?

Probably because passengers have come back after every other strike in history?! Why should this one be different (it won’t be).
Businesses that take their customers for granted and say 'they'll be there whatever we do' are usually the ones who deserved fail during hard times.
 

306024

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2013
Messages
3,950
Location
East Anglia
Because if the planning teams are under-resourced, they can be putting in all the hours god sends and still not have enough time to produce a new 'shoulder' day plan.
Even if fully resourced, the volume of work is overwhelming. And as ever it isn’t just timetablers, be they in TOCs or at MK, it‘s all the unit and crew diagrammers and roster clerks too. And don’t forget Control and crew supervisors who have to pick up the pieces when the planning timescales have expired. There’s a whole chain of people involved.

These people have been performing miracles ever since Covid hit, and there’s no end in sight yet. Hopefully they don’t read the adverse comments on here.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,211
Location
UK
Even if fully resourced, the volume of work is overwhelming. And as ever it isn’t just timetablers, be they in TOCs or at MK, it‘s all the unit and crew diagrammers and roster clerks too. And don’t forget Control and crew supervisors who have to pick up the pieces when the planning timescales have expired. There’s a whole chain of people involved.

These people have been performing miracles ever since Covid hit, and there’s no end in sight yet. Hopefully they don’t read the adverse comments on here.
Exactly. I know of TOCs whose planning teams have nearly tripled in size since before Covid, that are still struggling with the workload.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,267
I am really offended by Chiltern refusing to run any services on 18 December and only a limited service with late start and early finish at least until the end of the year, despite none of the days apart from 24-27 Dec are strike days! What's wrong with that train company?! 18 December isn't even a strike day and the other train companies have no problem running their normal service with a late start!

I have booked for an event in High Wycombe on that day, planning to take trains from Wembley Stadium to get there but the trains are gone! The alternative transport available (i.e. a bus from Amersham) adds half an hour into my journey, which my delay getting home the preceding evening due to the train strike (the usual journey from Brighton back home by train is about 1h50 and the alternative I can find takes me double the time and triple the fare) doesn't help at all!

I hope that this rubbish company will have the franchise terminated early.

Offended? Good Grief.

Sundays are outside the working week for Chiltern. Therefore it is overtime. There is industrial action that day (and all that week) in terms of an overtime ban. Therefore no trains on days that rely entirely on overtime, eg Sundays.

clearly this is not good for passengers. But it is what it is. Changing the company would make no difference. The only thing that would make a difference is changing the terms and conditions of those who run the train service - and that is what they are striking about.


Probably because passengers have come back after every other strike in history?! Why should this one be different (it won’t be).

MS Teams didn’t exist for every other strike in history.

The planning team is described as both unable to devise a plan, so there's no service, but also putting in 'all the hours they can'.

They are putting all the hours in that they can.

But it’s not enough to do all the work necessary to deliver (yet another) different plan due to the industrial action.


These people have been performing miracles ever since Covid hit, and there’s no end in sight yet. Hopefully they don’t read the adverse comments on here.

We both know they do, fortunately most are pretty thick skinned.

However I would love to know what jobs some of the adverse commenters do, so I could tell them they are incompetent / useless etc., and that I am offended by Sainsbury’s inability to stock enough lettuce last Saturday, for example.
 
Last edited:

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,947
Location
Sheffield
TPE and East Mids are not running a normal but later service on Thursday although EMR are showing incorrectly in journey planners

So if you want to go to Sheffield from Manchester your next train is Sunday!

Blackpool N only gets the Avanti trains, many of which are turned back at Preston

Huge towns left with no rail service all because it's easier not to run anything
After a late start EMR are now planning to operate an almost normal service tomorrow over at least the Liverpool - Sheffield section. No signs of anything on TPE or Northern.
 

miklcct

On Moderation
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
4,367
Location
Cricklewood
Offended? Good Grief.

Sundays are outside the working week for Chiltern. Therefore it is overtime. There is industrial action that day (and all that week) in terms of an overtime ban. Therefore no trains on days that rely entirely on overtime, eg Sundays.

clearly this is not good for passengers. But it is what it is. Changing the company would make no difference. The only thing that would make a difference is changing the terms and conditions of those who run the train service - and that is what they are striking about.
Why can SWR run a good service outside strike days? If SWR doesn't rely on overtime working than it's clearly Chiltern's problem!

Overtime, by definition, isn't part of the normal working week so it shouldn't be used to provide "normal" train services! Overtime is suitable for providing duplicate train services as reliefs, peak-hour extras which can be removed without damaging the usual pattern, etc.
 

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
3,982
I am really offended by Chiltern refusing to run any services on 18 December and only a limited service with late start and early finish at least until the end of the year, despite none of the days apart from 24-27 Dec are strike days! What's wrong with that train company?! 18 December isn't even a strike day and the other train companies have no problem running their normal service with a late start!

I have booked for an event in High Wycombe on that day, planning to take trains from Wembley Stadium to get there but the trains are gone! The alternative transport available (i.e. a bus from Amersham) adds half an hour into my journey, which my delay getting home the preceding evening due to the train strike (the usual journey from Brighton back home by train is about 1h50 and the alternative I can find takes me double the time and triple the fare) doesn't help at all!

I hope that this rubbish company will have the franchise terminated early.

How would terminating the franchise cause any change? The T&Cs are TUPE’d over to the new operator. The T&Cs (ie Sunday being outside the working week and thus overtime) are what’s causing there to be no trains (as there is an overtime ban) and what is causing the industrial action is a proposal to change those very T&Cs…

Would love to hear how you think a new company would make any difference.

If you need a greater understanding over TUPE which is about transferring T&Cs I’ve linked it here for you.

 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,307
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I am really offended by Chiltern refusing to run any services on 18 December and only a limited service with late start and early finish at least until the end of the year, despite none of the days apart from 24-27 Dec are strike days! What's wrong with that train company?! 18 December isn't even a strike day and the other train companies have no problem running their normal service with a late start!

I have booked for an event in High Wycombe on that day, planning to take trains from Wembley Stadium to get there but the trains are gone! The alternative transport available (i.e. a bus from Amersham) adds half an hour into my journey, which my delay getting home the preceding evening due to the train strike (the usual journey from Brighton back home by train is about 1h50 and the alternative I can find takes me double the time and triple the fare) doesn't help at all!

I hope that this rubbish company will have the franchise terminated early.

You really, really, really should purchase a car. It will make your life much easier and less stressful, even if you don't (as I don't) use it for every journey. A small petrol runaround is very cheap, and while insurance will be expensive to begin with the cost comes down very quickly.
 

306024

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2013
Messages
3,950
Location
East Anglia
However I would love to know what jobs some of the adverse commenters do, so I could tell them they are incompetent / useless etc., and that I am offended by Sainsbury’s inability to stock enough lettuce last Saturday, for example.
My thoughts too. I’m all for constructive criticism, but with the emphasis on constructive.

I will be making a return journey across three TOCs on Thursday, involving eight trains. All the data I need to plan my journey is available. This didn’t just happen by chance, but is thanks to a huge amount of behind the scenes work.

Meanwhile to help with your lettuce shortage this complaint to Sainsbury may assist / amuse you ;)

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3123998/complaint-to-sainsbury
 
Last edited:

ar10642

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2015
Messages
576
You really, really, really should purchase a car. It will make your life much easier and less stressful, even if you don't (as I don't) use it for every journey. A small petrol runaround is very cheap, and while insurance will be expensive to begin with the cost comes down very quickly.

If people start doing that, there are your customers not coming back.
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
3,364
Location
The back of beyond
I am really offended by Chiltern refusing to run any services on 18 December and only a limited service with late start and early finish at least until the end of the year, despite none of the days apart from 24-27 Dec are strike days! What's wrong with that train company?! 18 December isn't even a strike day and the other train companies have no problem running their normal service with a late start!

I have booked for an event in High Wycombe on that day, planning to take trains from Wembley Stadium to get there but the trains are gone! The alternative transport available (i.e. a bus from Amersham) adds half an hour into my journey, which my delay getting home the preceding evening due to the train strike (the usual journey from Brighton back home by train is about 1h50 and the alternative I can find takes me double the time and triple the fare) doesn't help at all!

I hope that this rubbish company will have the franchise terminated early.

Wow. So because you're inconvenienced, you believe the TOC should have its franchise revoked. Not an over-reaction of any kind then.

You're 100% certain of the fact that the disruption is purely down to issues at the Train Operator, not any outside factors yes?

I think you'll find that Chiltern has historically been seen as one of the better TOCs and indeed was granted a 6-year extension in December last year.

If people start doing that, there are your customers not coming back.

Really? So nobody who uses a train, either for commuting/business or leisure owns a car then? Interesting.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,307
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If people start doing that, there are your customers not coming back.

No car owners ever use trains?

Most households own at least one car. Thus most rail users own cars too. Indeed in the South East commuter area most people appear to get to the station by car!

I think you'll find that Chiltern has historically been seen as one of the better TOCs and indeed was granted a 6-year extension in December last year.

While it's not specifically relevant to this industrial action etc, I think most people who use it (which I do from time to time) who aren't just big Class 68 fans would take the view that it was good, but unfortunately has degraded significantly since Adrian Shooter (RIP, I heard today :( ) stepped away and the shoddy corporate culture at Arriva started creeping in. It's just a generic mostly-DOO South East operation these days with its fair share of problems, e.g. 2-car DMUs showing up on busy services.
 
Last edited:

ar10642

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2015
Messages
576
No car owners ever use trains?

People I know, usually to get to London and back and that's it. Not between High Wycombe and Brighton or journeys like that, why would you bother if you have a car when prices are higher and the service is so unreliable due to strikes?
 

miklcct

On Moderation
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
4,367
Location
Cricklewood
No car owners ever use trains?

Most households own at least one car. Thus most rail users own cars too. Indeed in the South East commuter area most people appear to get to the station by car!



While it's not specifically relevant to this industrial action etc, I think most people who use it (which I do from time to time) who aren't just big Class 68 fans would take the view that it was good, but unfortunately has degraded significantly since Adrian Shooter (RIP, I heard today :( ) stepped away and the shoddy corporate culture at Arriva started creeping in. It's just a generic mostly-DOO South East operation these days with its fair share of problems, e.g. 2-car DMUs showing up on busy services.
According to TfL, only 39% of households in inner London have access to a car, and 64% in outer London does so. Therefore I won't use the word "most" to describe the proportion of rail users owning a car. Even for the rich earning £75k+ per annum household income pre-tax, the level of car ownership is just about half.

People I know, usually to get to London and back and that's it. Not between High Wycombe and Brighton or journeys like that, why would you bother if you have a car when prices are higher and the service is so unreliable due to strikes?
How about journeys such as Southampton - Brighton and Southampton - Gatwick Airport (where the direct train is much cheaper), or Stevenage - Brighton (where driving requires cutting across the centre of London)?
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
3,364
Location
The back of beyond
People I know, usually to get to London and back and that's it. Not between High Wycombe and Brighton or journeys like that, why would you bother if you have a car when prices are higher and the service is so unreliable due to strikes?

People on here seem to think that strikes happen all the time. Whilst clearly there is ongoing industrial action currently, this has certainly not been the case for the last few decades indeed there hasn't been a national train drivers' strike for example since 1982. People have short memories and I'm sure once these disputes are resolved one way or the other, things will return to normal with most if not all operators providing a good service.
 

miklcct

On Moderation
Joined
2 May 2021
Messages
4,367
Location
Cricklewood
People have short memories and I'm sure once these disputes are resolved one way or the other, things will return to normal with most if not all operators providing a good service.
This won't happen under the current Conservative government.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,307
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
People I know, usually to get to London and back and that's it. Not between High Wycombe and Brighton or journeys like that, why would you bother if you have a car when prices are higher and the service is so unreliable due to strikes?

I've gone from Bletchley to Brighton on the train, it's not a particularly nice drive and parking in Brighton is a nightmare, plus I was going there with the express purpose of drinking alcohol which kind of rules the car out! But exactly how much demand is there from HW to Brighton even by car? Must be single figures a month.

Public transport is fairly useless to get around the South East anyway, it's all the wrong shape for that, public transport is geared up for London and the outer end of whatever mainline you're on, there's a paltry local and regional bus service for those with no other option, and that's really your lot. For many journeys it's car or don't go. Those in the North with their bus-supporting PTEs and web-like network (even if TPE are about as good as Avanti at the moment) who think the SE is the land of milk and honey often miss this. The TfL area is the land of milk and honey so far as UK public transport goes, but a couple of steps past the M25 and it deteriorates rapidly.
 
Last edited:

redengine

Member
Joined
1 Mar 2019
Messages
23
Apologies if this is an FAQ, but does anyone know how the late starts on the days after strike days work from a Delay Repay perspective? If the first train of the day from my station is usually 0358, but is now planned to be 0731, is it possible to claim I've been delayed by 120 minutes or more just by travelling on what is now the first train of the day?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,307
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Apologies if this is an FAQ, but does anyone know how the late starts on the days after strike days work from a Delay Repay perspective? If the first train of the day from my station is usually 0358, but is now planned to be 0731, is it possible to claim I've been delayed by 120 minutes or more just by travelling on what is now the first train of the day?

No, because DR is based on the published timetable for that day. However if the 0731 is cancelled/late on the day you can claim based on that.
 

ar10642

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2015
Messages
576
I've gone from Bletchley to Brighton on the train, it's not a particularly nice drive and parking in Brighton is a nightmare, plus I was going there with the express purpose of drinking alcohol which kind of rules the car out! But exactly how much demand is there from HW to Brighton even by car? Must be single figures a month.

Public transport is fairly useless to get around the South East anyway, it's all the wrong shape for that, public transport is geared up for London and the outer end of whatever mainline you're on, there's a paltry local and regional bus service for those with no other option, and that's really your lot. For many journeys it's car or don't go. Those in the North with their bus-supporting PTEs and web-like network (even if TPE are about as good as Avanti at the moment) who think the SE is the land of milk and honey often miss this. The TfL area is the land of milk and honey so far as UK public transport goes, but a couple of steps past the M25 and it deteriorates rapidly.

HW to Brighton was just an example. Point is if we're telling people who currently rely on the railway to buy cars because the railway is making itself useless that is not good for the future of the railway.
 

James H

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2014
Messages
1,110
Interestingly SWR are still selling Advances for next week based on the full timetable.
 

philosopher

Established Member
Joined
23 Sep 2015
Messages
1,358
While it's not specifically relevant to this industrial action etc, I think most people who use it (which I do from time to time) who aren't just big Class 68 fans would take the view that it was good, but unfortunately has degraded significantly since Adrian Shooter (RIP, I heard today :( ) stepped away and the shoddy corporate culture at Arriva started creeping in. It's just a generic mostly-DOO South East operation these days with its fair share of problems, e.g. 2-car DMUs showing up on busy services.
While Chiltern may have good reasons for not running services at all on the 18th December and none past Banbury for almost a month, for passengers it is not a good look and could re enforce the perception that Chiltern is not as good as it was. I suspect many could start looking elsewhere for their travel needs.

For those wanting to travel from London to the West Midlands, London Northwestern may be least impacted from all this in terms of passenger numbers as they seem to have been provided the most consistent service over the past year.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,610
Location
London
Businesses that take their customers for granted and say 'they'll be there whatever we do' are usually the ones who deserved fail during hard times.

Is that right?! Does that apply to ROSCOs?

What about businesses that encourage their customers to abuse their own front line staff, per your previous suggestion? Do those deserve to succeed?

MS Teams didn’t exist for every other strike in history.

No. But let’s not pretend these strikes are doing any more damage than Covid did. Plus the strikes could rather more easily have been avoided…
 

12LDA28C

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2022
Messages
3,364
Location
The back of beyond
While Chiltern may have good reasons for not running services at all on the 18th December and none past Banbury for almost a month, for passengers it is not a good look and could re enforce the perception that Chiltern is not as good as it was. I suspect many could start looking elsewhere for their travel needs.

For those wanting to travel from London to the West Midlands, London Northwestern may be least impacted from all this in terms of passenger numbers as they seem to have been provided the most consistent service over the past year.

The current strikes / industrial action affects different TOCs / routes in different ways so people who moan about 'X can provide a reasonable service even on strike days so why can't Y' are failing to understand the situation.

Of course it's entirely possible that an operator would love to run services but is unable to do so due to a lack of signalling staff in the relevant signalling centre, for example.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top