In-between strike days and intermediate days - why no service?

[317 forever]

Chiltern have said they're running nothing north of Banbury until 9 January. I can understand troubles on days adjacent to strike action but that's ridiculous.

I thought that might have been in anticipation of the overtime ban

 

[185]

from Northern:
Many shifts on the 15th would finish on the 16th so will not be covered. ^VR

Sort of like TPE blaming Covid, 9/11, WW2, the great plague and the arrival of the a Mr J. Christ.

 

[Starmill]

Chiltern have said they're running nothing north of Banbury until 9 January. I can understand troubles on days adjacent to strike action but that's ridiculous.

And no service whatsoever on Sunday 18 December. And of course advice not to travel after 12 December and before 8 January.

This raises some interesting questions, such as:
- Are Birmingham drivers going to be given no work whatsoever for a whole month, save maybe moving some empties on the first and last days?
- As Chiltern are advising people not to travel, anyone who holds a long-period season ticket will have to be paid a pro-rated refund. Are Chiltern really going to pay out on almost a full month of refund value without dispute?

 

[blackpoolsouth]

I'm not buying this at all.

On previous days between strikes they have put out a service albeit one that starts later but there's been something.

To run a strike day timetable on a day when it isn't is nothing short of a joke.

 

[Flange Squeal]

While the RMT's overtime ban was lifted for Network Rail employees, my understanding is that TOC employees will still be subject to one? Therefore could it partly be that TOCs who rely on overtime to run a normal service on a normal day aren't confident enough that they'll have sufficient staff available on non-strike days to offer a fuller level of service?

 

[Peterthegreat]

While the RMT's overtime ban was lifted for Network Rail employees, my understanding is that TOC employees will still be subject to one? Therefore could it partly be that TOCs who rely on overtime to run a normal service on a normal day aren't confident enough that they'll have sufficient staff available on non-strike days to offer a fuller level of service?

You may be right but in the case of Northern they are running no services at all above the level of a strike day.

 

[High Dyke]

I'm not buying this at all.

On previous days between strikes they have put out a service albeit one that starts later but there's been something.

To run a strike day timetable on a day when it isn't is nothing short of a joke.

I agree. I've taken to lambasting East Midlands Railway, on twitter, for their laziness on such days.

 

[nedchester]

This is the response I got from Northern.
Many shifts on the 15th would finish on the 16th so will not be covered. ^VR

That’s an outright lie

 

[Peterthegreat]

I agree. I've taken to lambasting East Midlands Railway, on twitter, for their laziness on such days.

Totally agree. It seems strange that most TOCs in the south of England are managing to run a near normal service after a later start up yet large swathes of the midlands and the north are completely devoid of any train services. Why do the Cornish branches have a full service yet there are no trains at all on a non-strike day to
Hull (except Hull Trains!)
Barrow
Blackpool (except Avanti)
Lincoln
Bolton
And many other medium towns.

That’s an outright lie

Not from me I hope.

 

[nedchester]

Totally agree. It seems strange that most TOCs in the south of England are managing to run a near normal service after a later start up yet large swathes of the midlands and the north are completely devoid of any train services. Why do the Cornish branches have a full service yet there are no trains at all on a non-strike day to
Hull (except Hull Trains!)
Barrow
Blackpool (except Avanti)
Lincoln
Bolton
And many other medium towns.


Not from me I hope.

Not at all! But Northern are lying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not at all! But Northern are lying.

And Chiltern may not be lying but are certainly wilfully obfuscating.

 

[Peterthegreat]

And Chiltern may not be lying but are certainly wilfully obfuscating.

Agreed.

 

[uww11x]

Probably chips 'n gravy.

If you are booked to work then you should attend. Conductors, most likely being RMT would strike.

Drivers, most likely ASLEF, if they decide to cross the picket line, will head in to work.

Probably a few things they could be doing if not out driving a train.


We tend to drink coffee and play snooker, maybe a bit of daytime telly. I reckon Northern Drivers skip the tea and do a bit of Ferret-Legging.

I'd imagine drivers will be doing Rules, Routes and outstanding safety briefs. Plenty to do if not driving trains

 

[philosopher]

And Chiltern may not be lying but are certainly wilfully obfuscating.

Chiltern have been very vague on why they are running such a reduced timetable. On Twitter, to people’s replies they typically blame operational problems without explaining what these operational problems are.

It would help if Chiltern explained why they can’t run services on the 18th December at all or north of Banbury for the next few weeks, perhaps on their website. Passengers would be more understanding if they knew the reasons for the reduced timetable.

 

[Starmill]

To run a strike day timetable on a day when it isn't is nothing short of a joke.

Chiltern are running no service at all on 18 December, which isn't a strike day either.

It would be interesting to know how much that's down to a lack of planning resources, engineering work, and staff without contracted Sundays taking an overtime ban respectively.

Chiltern have been very vague on why they are running such a reduced timetable. On Twitter, to people’s replies they typically blame operational problems without explaining what these operational problems are.

It would help if Chiltern explained why they can’t run services on the 18th December at all or north of Banbury for the next few weeks, perhaps on their website. Passengers would be more understanding if they knew the reasons for the reduced timetable.

I note that WMR/LNR, SWR and EMR haven't published information yet for 18 December - 2 January inclusive. They also could be running next to nothing.

It’s not that. The explanations given are genuine.

I think that the person you're quoting was suggesting that no clear explanations have been provided.

And Chiltern may not be lying but are certainly wilfully obfuscating.

I really don't get this. It would be much better if they were honest and said that the ban on overtime essentially disables their entire operation on Sundays, and forces it to be cut to a strike day service on other days. The truth will get out eventually and they'll look even more daft for trying to obscure it. Especially if WMR/LNR take the same line on 18 December, and EMR and SWR on the other weekdays when there's no strike.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I really don't get this. It would be much better if they were honest and said that the ban on overtime essentially disables their entire operation on Sundays, and forces it to be cut to a strike day service on other days. The truth will get out eventually and they'll look even more daft for trying to obscure it. Especially if WMR/LNR take the same line on 18 December, and EMR and SWR on the other weekdays when there's no strike.

Since when have you expected a Whitehall run operation to be honest ?

Exhibit A is the utter fiasco of an introduction of IETs. The DfT ordered plain beige / white trains then had to pay to manufacture vinyl for them (GWR 800s and LNER 800s 801s), and stand them down for vinyl applicition. The vinyl looks crap, needs replacing more frequently that a proper paint finish and doesn't do the bodyshell a lot of good. Thankfully GWR's "franchised" 802s were delivered fully painted. That is just one tiny indicator of how DfT operate, and don't forget they are in total charge of the former franchised passenger operation.

It would not surprise me one bit of DfT are rubber stamping the TOCs very lacklustre between strike provision, purely to "big up" the damage the strikes are doing to the industry.

 

[MadCommuter]

Is anyone able to inform of the shift patterns at the West of Scotland signalling Centre? I'm trying to work out why a day between strikes is any different to (a) a day after a strike and (b) a day before a strike.

Fortunately I use a line that gets a service in strike days, albeit at reduced headway, but I'm still confused by it all. And I'd like to think I know more about the railways* than an average commuter.

*I've heard of and use RTT and Traksy.

 

[Horizon22]

Unfortunately other operators will have different circumstances - where units are stabled, whether depots are staffed internally or externally, what time signallers book on, etc.

Also certain depots are "shared" so this caused a knock on impact to some as well if multiple operators use one site. There's probably lots of local factors involved with start up as some depot staff are not TOC staff either so it is a bit messy.

I think most places should theoretically be able to get things going in a decent manner from 0800-0830, given that signallers start from 0630-0700 but the way the timetable works means something might not get to your specific station until 60 minutes later. It's also not like this is the first time strikes have run with "shoulder" days either; most TOCs should know by now what they'll run given its the 4th or 5th time its run this year and a strike day timetable should be easy to pull off a shelf.

Of course there are always local quirks that mean things aren't possible.

That’s an outright lie

Not necessarily - a night shift (strike day) staff member would normally do some early morning (non-strike day) prep at a depot. Early turn wouldn't turn up until the morning (non-strike day). So what they say is true but the extent to which this causes such a dramatic shift to the timetable even on a non-strike day is certainly a matter of debate.

 

[350401]

What confuses / intrigues me is the very different messages given out by different TOCs. Southeastern for example, have no blanket DO NOT TRAVEL message, but instead advise there is a limited service on strike days, use at own risk - and it will be a later start on mornings after strike. Whereas SWR, C2C, Avanti etc advise against travelling during the entire period, including on sandwich days and days after a strike. Perhaps it’s covid induced PTSD, but the “stay at home” messages leave me cold. I’d rather be warned that limited services are running, use at your own risk - and don’t come crying to the TOC if they are cancelled. In short treating people as adults and letting them use their own judgment - something that seems very rare in post COVID Britain.

 

[Starmill]

Since when have you expected a Whitehall run operation to be honest ?

To be fair I wasn't suggesting that I expected them to be honest, just that their current strategy is not better for them.

 

[43066]

I’d rather be warned that limited services are running, use at your own risk - and don’t come crying to the TOC if they are cancelled. In short treating people as adults and letting them use their own judgment - something that seems very rare in post COVID Britain.

Trouble is people don’t accept this. They will still travel despite the warnings and will then look to blame someone else when it all goes wrong.

 

[Starmill]

What confuses / intrigues me is the very different messages given out by different TOCs. Southeastern for example, have no blanket DO NOT TRAVEL message, but instead advise there is a limited service on strike days, use at own risk - and it will be a later start on mornings after strike. Whereas SWR, C2C, Avanti etc advise against travelling during the entire period, including on sandwich days and days after a strike. Perhaps it’s covid induced PTSD, but the “stay at home” messages leave me cold. I’d rather be warned that limited services are running, use at your own risk - and don’t come crying to the TOC if they are cancelled. In short treating people as adults and letting them use their own judgment - something that seems very rare in post COVID Britain.

It's also not particularly advantageous to them, because if they give advice not to travel they're obliged to pay out refunds regardless of what service does or doesn't run.

 

[43096]

Since when have you expected a Whitehall run operation to be honest ?

Exhibit A is the utter fiasco of an introduction of IETs. The DfT ordered plain beige / white trains then had to pay to manufacture vinyl for them (GWR 800s and LNER 800s 801s), and stand them down for vinyl applicition. The vinyl looks crap, needs replacing more frequently that a proper paint finish and doesn't do the bodyshell a lot of good. Thankfully GWR's "franchised" 802s were delivered fully painted. That is just one tiny indicator of how DfT operate, and don't forget they are in total charge of the former franchised passenger operation.

The GWR 800/3s are painted: it's just the 800/0s that aren't in the GWR fleet. For LNER, the livery is actually quite clever as it can be applied using minimal vinyl on the white base.

 

[ar10642]

It's also not particularly advantageous to them, because if they give advice not to travel they're obliged to pay out refunds regardless of what service does or doesn't run.

What's the point in running a service and then telling people not to use it?

 

[Horizon22]

Trouble is people don’t accept this. They will still travel despite the warnings and will then look to blame someone else when it all goes wrong.

Indeed. It's a "no-win" situation. I'm not sure what the best comms message is and people could probably argue about this for eternity.

Something along the lines of "A severely reduced service will be in operation and trains will start later and finish earlier than normal. You are strongly advised to seek alternative routes to complete your journey and only travel if absoutely necessary". You can't please everyone which is what is meant to be a simple, easily digestable message about passenger information.

 

[Starmill]

What's the point in running a service and then telling people not to use it?

None at all. It's a vast waste of money.

Indeed. It's a "no-win" situation. I'm not sure what the best comms message is and people could probably argue about this for eternity.

Something along the lines of "A severely reduced service will be in operation and trains will start later and finish earlier than normal. You are strongly advised to seek alternative routes to complete your journey and only travel if absoutely necessary". You can't please everyone which is what is meant to be a simple, easily digestable message about passenger information.

It's worth noting that this message would still oblige them to pay refunds, even if a good service did actually run.

 

[ld0595]

Trouble is people don’t accept this. They will still travel despite the warnings and will then look to blame someone else when it all goes wrong.

Worth saying that some people don't really have the choice and have to travel so they can keep a roof over their head and food on their plate.

 

[D6130]

Chiltern have been very vague on why they are running such a reduced timetable. On Twitter, to people’s replies they typically blame operational problems without explaining what these operational problems are.

It would help if Chiltern explained why they can’t run services on the 18th December at all or north of Banbury for the next few weeks, perhaps on their website. Passengers would be more understanding if they knew the reasons for the reduced timetable.

Are Network Rail anticipating having problems in staffing Fenny Compton signalbox during that period? If that were the case, Cross-Country services would also be affected.

 

[43066]

Worth saying that some people don't really have the choice and have to travel so they can keep a roof over their head and food on their plate.

Yes we all know that. The point is to deter as many as possible. It really shouldn’t be difficult to understand why that’s a sensible approach when there’s a much reduced service running.

 

[MadCommuter]

Trouble is people don’t accept this. They will still travel despite the warnings and will then look to blame someone else when it all goes wrong.

I have asked my manager if I can WFH on Wednesday but he's said no. I could catch the bus but the limited rail service is a better prospect due to journey time.