Inadequate Portsmouth to Bristol capacity

[Topgun333]

I'm a recent frequent traveller between Southampton and Bristol Temple Meads [BRI] on the 158 operated service . On one now; middle of the afternoon out of school holidays and it is rammed, not Corbyn style rammed, but genuine.

The earlier one I took in the other direction was the 9.10 from Soton to BRI and was also standing room only at certain points and also out of rush hour. That unit was 158959. Two toilets of three were out of order and the end window in carriage B would not shut. A wheelchair user had to sit beneath the open window banging and whooshing away at higher speeds also. I have reported it to Great Western Railway (GWR) but no response so far.

Does GWR have plans to increase capacity on this route? It needs more seats and better maintained units in my view.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I'm a recent frequent traveller between Southampton and BTM on the 158 operated service . On one now; middle of the afternoon out of school holidays and it is rammed, not Corbyn style rammed, but genuine.

The earlier one I took in the other direction was the 9.10 from Soton to BTM and was also standing room only at certain points and also out of rush hour. That unit was 158959. Two toilets of three were out of order and the end window in carriage B would not shut. A wheelchair user had to sit beneath the open window banging and whooshing away at higher speeds also. I have reported it to GWR but no response so far.

Does GWR have plans to increase capacity on this route? It needs more seats and better maintained units in my view.

Where do you propose extra DMU units come from?

 

[D365]

Where do you propose extra DMU units come from?

Diesel Multiple Unit units?

As for your question, I would have said the cascade of Turbos from the Thames Valley routes.

 

[47802]

Many routes are rammed at the moment, until electrification cascades and new build diesel stock starts to be available your just going to have to lump it like many people on many routes, end of.

 

[PHILIPE]

Diesel Multiple Unit units?

As for your question, I would have said the cascade of Turbos from the Thames Valley routes.

2 x 2 Car 158s when electrification cascade underway. Turbos are history and has been documented on the Forum. Mind you, things can change day by day.
The 3 Car 158s, except for 158798, will revert back to 2 Cars to accomplish this.

 

[aar0]

I've often thought the same, despite travelling off peak or late at night it's always busy, loud and frequently delayed... Would a short HST not do a good job?

 

[TheKnightWho]

2 x 2 Car 158s when electrification cascade underway. Turbos are history and has been documented on the Forum. Mind you, things can change day by day.
The 3 Car 158s, except for 158798, will revert back to 2 Cars to accomplish this.

Where has this been documented?

 

[The Ham]

Looking further ahead, depending on if the line between Southampton and Salisbury gets wires are the same time as the line between Salisbury and Basingstoke then there could be a relatively short length of the route (Bath to Salisbury) between Portsmouth and Cardiff that wasn't electrified.

As such I wouldn't be surprised during CP8 (by 2030) we saw the line getting EMUs. During CP7 (by 2025) could be a bit of a tall order but not impossible, whilst CP9 (by 2035) would appear to be a bit of a long wait given that Westbury would need to be wired up anyway to allow electric running of the 80x's along the B&H and that would be the only other major junction, meaning the rest would be fairly straightforward wires.

 

[387star]

Friday afternoons are almost always fulland standing on departure from southampton

The 158s are undergoing a major refurbishment at the moment but only one unit so far completed

Friday afteroons and sunday evenings are known busy times for that route

 

[PHILIPE]

Friday afternoons are almost always fulland standing on departure from southampton

The 158s are undergoing a major refurbishment at the moment but only one unit so far completed

Friday afteroons and sunday evenings are known busy times for that route

158957 went into Barton Hill earlier this week.
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Where has this been documented?

I must admit I can't trace anything on this Forum unless it has got buried on the 185 thread which has gone totally off topic. Surprising nothing appeared on this Forum, so I must admit it is the WNXX Forum which has discussed the subject in detail.
Apologies that I may have misled people in my thread, there have been so many threads discussing what will happen to this Class and that Class when...
and all going off topic..

 

[cjmillsnun]

2 x 2 Car 158s when electrification cascade underway. Turbos are history and has been documented on the Forum. Mind you, things can change day by day.
The 3 Car 158s, except for 158798, will revert back to 2 Cars to accomplish this.

TBH 2 x 3 car 158s are what is required.

 

[Clarence Yard]

2 x 2 Car 158s when electrification cascade underway. Turbos are history and has been documented on the Forum. Mind you, things can change day by day.
The 3 Car 158s, except for 158798, will revert back to 2 Cars to accomplish this.

Not quite. There has never been an official DA plan to go 4 x 158 on this route. It is still scheduled to go 5 car Turbo for most of the circuits, probably now in May 2018. There will still be some 3 car 158 units in use on GWR after this date, albeit being used elsewhere.

What can be done to put more stock on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route in December 2017 depends on how well the electrification has gone in the London area. Getting everything wired to Didcot is key.

 

[MatthewRead]

I thought Turbo's were going to work Cardiff-Portsmouth services?

 

[PHILIPE]

TBH 2 x 3 car 158s are what is required.

Too long for some platforms.

 

[pompeyfan]

Like I said on the 185 thread, if the right price could be negotiated, fit the fleet with ASDO and the ASDO beacons and run them round as 6 car trains.

 

[swt class 450]

I think at the moment it would be a better idea for FGW to just use 150s instead of 158s on this line. The 158s are not really suited to such a busy route as they have narrow doors at the ends of each coach (instead of wide double doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions). The 150s are more spacious and suitable. I think that in the future though the 165s and 166s would definitely be the best option for this route.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think at the moment it would be a better idea for FGW to just use 150s instead of 158s on this line. The 158s are not really suited to such a busy route as they have narrow doors at the ends of each coach (instead of wide double doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions). The 150s are more spacious and suitable. I think that in the future though the 165s and 166s would definitely be the best option for this route.

And where would such 150s be coming from? The only electrification that is going to release any quantity of DMUs anytime soon is the GWML which will release plenty of 165s & 166s. So it is not surprising that the Turbos are what are currently being proposed for the route. In particular their 1/3 2/3 door positions will be very helpful in dealing with the crowds around Bristol and Southampton.

 

[swt class 450]

And where would such 150s be coming from? The only electrification that is going to release any quantity of DMUs anytime soon is the GWML which will release plenty of 165s & 166s. So it is not surprising that the Turbos are what are currently being proposed for the route. In particular their 1/3 2/3 door positions will be very helpful in dealing with the crowds around Bristol and Southampton.

Could the 158s be swapped the 150s that are used on the local Cornwall and Devon branch lines until the 165s and 166s are ready to be transferred?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Could the 158s be swapped the 150s that are used on the local Cornwall and Devon branch lines until the 165s and 166s are ready to be transferred?

Complete imbalance in seating capacities I'm afraid. The 150s would all have to run as 4 cars and there aren't enough of them to do that.

 

[The Ham]

Presumably, like most services, a few 16x's could start to make a big difference fairly quickly.

For instance for every 5 coach 16x train that can be brought in it would allow one other train run as a 4 coach 158 (possibly having swapped 3 coach versions with 2 coach versions on other routes, which would benefit those other routes too).

Only once you have half (or nearly half if you are sure that you are only going to be using the 3 coach 158s on the quietest services) the services running as 16x's do you then start to cascade away the pairs if 158s to provide capacity elsewhere.

 

[Kite159]

I think at the moment it would be a better idea for FGW to just use 150s instead of 158s on this line. The 158s are not really suited to such a busy route as they have narrow doors at the ends of each coach (instead of wide double doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions). The 150s are more spacious and suitable. I think that in the future though the 165s and 166s would definitely be the best option for this route.

Great idea, I'm sure passengers making long trips would want to give up the comfortable regional seating layout offered by a 158 for some high density airline style seating as found on a 150/1 allowing in cold air at stations etc

Even the 16Xs will be a downgrade on seating quality, unless the seats will be spaced wider if they get turned into 2+2 rather than just having the aisle seat removed with no changes to the other seats

 

[The Ham]

Like I said on the 185 thread, if the right price could be negotiated, fit the fleet with ASDO and the ASDO beacons and run them round as 6 car trains.

I'm not sure that there would be enough to run every service as pairs until all the 185's are released, which could mean that unless electrification is very delayed beyond what we expect now it would be quicker to get the 16x's.

Then of course there is the matter of capacity, where the 16x's, even with the plan to convert a lot of the seats to 2+2, would still win.

The only advantage I can see is that the 185's would be a bit quicker on the GWML, so you may be able to squeeze in an extra path for something else.
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Even the 16Xs will be a downgrade on seating quality

Really? As I thought the plan was to change many of the seats from 3+2 to 2+2. The some of the 16x's have some very nice, nearly first class seats at one end.

 

[pompeyfan]

Having only ever seen 16x and never actually used one I'll have to take everyone's opinion on them. Are they comfortable on a journey the length of Portsmouth - Bristol/Cardiff?

I know clearance is usually just a paperwork issue but is there any chance the Netley line could be an issue? There's a couple of classes banned from the line, but the fat 442s used to wind their way down it quite frequent so it could be 6 and half a dozen.

Finally, wouldn't a lot of work have to be done to put a GOP at every door or at least every carriage?

 

[FenMan]

Having only ever seen 16x and never actually used one I'll have to take everyone's opinion on them. Are they comfortable on a journey the length of Portsmouth - Bristol/Cardiff?

I know clearance is usually just a paperwork issue but is there any chance the Netley line could be an issue? There's a couple of classes banned from the line, but the fat 442s used to wind their way down it quite frequent so it could be 6 and half a dozen.

Finally, wouldn't a lot of work have to be done to put a GOP at every door or at least every carriage?

I use 166s all the time and have even travelled to Worcester on one. The current 3/2 seating layout is unsuitable for longer journeys, however it's been mentioned several times that GWR will be changing the cascaded 166s to 2/2 seating. Capacity of a 3-car in the current configuration is around 290 seats, so I'd expect that to reduce to 240 or so.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm sure that many regular travellers, if asked, would immediately pooh pooh any idea of 150s if rhey had had experience of travelling on them on this route
150s frequently have to substitute for 175s between Cardiff and Manchester and are most unpopular for a journey of such a distance and for a similar length of time.
Also, the trains would have to be slowed down from 90mph max to 75mph

 

[swt_passenger]

I've often thought the same, despite travelling off peak or late at night it's always busy, loud and frequently delayed... Would a short HST not do a good job?

HSTs are not route cleared for the Netley line.

 

[BestWestern]

Six car trains would be excessive for the route; whilst the current three car provision is regularly very busy, there are very few runs on which six coaches would be sensibly utilised. My understanding is that 158s will go west, and it will indeed by Turbos taking over.

Short HSTs have been considered I believe, but there are a great many issues. Acceleration would be poor, even with both power cars working and only five coaches I don't imagine a set would keep time with a DMU, and station dwell times would increase significantly assuming slam doors were retained. I would presume track access charges would increase significantly also. There is also the thorny issue of who works them; would the Guard need to be a Conductor (as currently) or a (higher paid) Train Manager. Would Drivers need to be West or High Speed?

I think Turbos are likely to remain the train of choice.

 

[swt_passenger]

Short HSTs have been considered I believe...

The chaps who work for FGW/GWR posting in various thread here and in other forums have said a few times that HSTs have never been considered for this route.

Which is probably to do with them not being route cleared because of restrictions at the Hamble river bridge.

 

[pompeyfan]

Assume that any FGW HST's that have made it on football charters have been via Eastleigh and the Botley line?

 

[aar0]

HSTs are not route cleared for the Netley line.

Makes sense, thank you!

Quite often odd mixes, last time I took it, Southampton said it had 6 coaches, Bristol Temple Meads said 5 - when I got out and checked (as we were delayed at Bristol for 45 minutes) it was actual two pairs, neither a 158, and both very loud!