Incident at Dalston Junction.

[Samzino]

If the woman was a wheelchair user, where was it? How did it get up the stairs?

She dragged herself out of the Wheelchair and onto the stairs to pull herself up the stairs. I assume at that point a member of the public or staff might have been able to fold it up and carry it to the top but staff wise I believe it would depending on what rules there are for Manual Handling.

On her Instagram there is a video of her dragging herself out of her Plane seat and to the Aircraft's toilet via the single aisle. Some flights have accessible like wheelie chairs but many don't as its not common law as far as I know, which I assume she is trying to raise awareness to of sorts.

 

[TFN]

There also needs to be some questions raised regarding whether the information was on the TfL website or not.

The article and the video says there was no information on the TfL website. If that’s the case then that’s poor. I presume that the station supervisor needs to contact their control to inform about the lift out of service and is then updated on all relevant sites and journey planners. Something was definitely missed.

 

[Horizon22]

But surely it would have been easier to carry onto the next station and double back?

That is normal procedure for lifts out of service yes - continue on to next station and circulate.

It however seems the passenger a) was unaware before alighting that the lift was out of service, b) the staff did not assist when alighting (I am presuming they ended their journey here, I can’t see the video).

If it was a) it might have just been very unfortunate timing & the lift had gone out of service en route between the two stops, but I can see contradictory evidence to that. Even then b) should haven’t happened and the staff could have met them and told them to continue onto the next station and apologise for the inconvenience. Dalston Junction has an interestingly layout so it may have be NO lift access in which case an accessible taxi should have been booked.

The staff behaviour on the ground here needs an investigation. There’s no info on the timing of lifts going in/out of service.

 

[Samzino]

There also needs to be some questions raised regarding whether the information was on the TfL website or not.

The article and the video says there was no information on the TfL website. If that’s the case then that’s poor. I presume that the station supervisor needs to contact their control to inform about the lift out of service and is then updated on all relevant sites and journey planners. Something was definitely missed.

Apparently in the article it was said a staff member had mentioned the lift was "broken for a month"

Also from below, the individual was made aware of an option to double back from Highbury as mentioned before, just not the full picture given on the post of how that would be conducted.



Im sure its cleared up but also the person filming was her Colleague, not staff nor a unhelpful member of the public and she wasn't able to carry her up several flights of stairs which is reasonable.

 

[Busaholic]

If the woman was a wheelchair user, where was it? How did it get up the stairs?

It was waiting for her at the top of the stairs, if you watch the video carefully, together with one of the station staff. She didn't seem surprised to see him, so I'm assuming he brought the wheelchair up having had previous contact with her. He wouldn't have been allowed to attempt to help her physically, even if he was willing to and she had agreed to it, which I'm sure she wouldn't anyway. The lift was shown as working on the TfL website, apparently.

 

[Horizon22]

The article and the video says there was no information on the TfL website. If that’s the case then that’s poor. I presume that the station supervisor needs to contact their control to inform about the lift out of service and is then updated on all relevant sites and journey planners. Something was definitely missed.

Correct. Station staff call control and the information coordinator informs London Underground Control Centre (for all TfL modes) who then mark the relevant information on journey planners / TfL Go. As a national rail operator, NRES would also be informed but they get this information automatically when the relevant notice is posted.

From what seems to be coming out in a report, she was actually offered assistance at Shoreditch High street where her Journey started and this is noted, however, refused assistance. On the platform of Dalston there was no use made of the Help points, once she was approached by staff she didn't want to take the Train to the next stop Highbury and Islington of which a Taxi would be provided back to Dalston by LO for the inconvenience.

If correct, the station staff at Dalston Junction were put in a pretty difficult situation then. That doesn’t defend their reported attitude at all, but if the passenger declines all the alternatives, they have really run out of options. Unfortunately you can’t guarantee 100% uptime of all assets at 100% of locations and thus contingencies are in place, even if inconvenient.

 

[ExRes]

What with the sarcasm it wasn't the most pleasantly worded, and perpetuated the too oft issue of people getting defensive whenever anyone suggests rail staff have played a less than shining role in a situation.

The source was also quoted in Post 6. If you don't actually read the sources, I'm a little confused as to why you "asked" for one from someone else?

Are you actually accusing me of sarcasm or are you referring to another post?

As for the source, I do not click on articles by clickbait 'media sources' such as the Standard, does that disqualify me from querying a post?

 

[Samzino]

Correct. Station staff call control and the information coordinator informs London Underground Control Centre (for all TfL modes) who then mark the relevant information on journey planners / TfL Go. As a national rail operator, NRES would also be informed but they get this information automatically when the relevant notice is posted.



If correct, the station staff at Dalston Junction were put in a pretty difficult situation then. That doesn’t defend their reported attitude at all, but if the passenger declines all the alternatives, they have really run out of options. Unfortunately you can’t guarantee 100% uptime of all assets at 100% of locations and thus contingencies are in place, even if inconvenient.

Agreed, the station staff laughing is a disgrace, Nothing funny about seeing a wheelchair user pulling themselves up a flight of stairs. But yes indeed there was more to the story.

Not pointing fingers but the tape starts rolling as she pulls herself up the flight of stairs, it didn't roll when she was initially in the wheelchair when staff gave the only option at that time of a Double back but via taxi for the return leg to Dalston. The wheelchair is then spotted at the top of the stairs on the top left corner as the video begins to roll which staff had taken it up there.

 

[Darandio]

As for the source, I do not click on articles by clickbait 'media sources' such as the Standard, does that disqualify me from querying a post?

Yes

 

[Horizon22]

Agreed, the station staff laughing is a disgrace, Nothing funny about seeing a wheelchair user pulling themselves up a flight of stairs. But yes indeed there was more to the story.

Not pointing fingers but the tape starts rolling as she pulls herself up the flight of stairs, it didn't roll when she was initially in the wheelchair when staff gave the only option at that time of a Double back but via taxi for the return leg to Dalston. The wheelchair is then spotted at the top of the stairs on the top left corner as the video begins to roll which staff had taken it up there.

There have been incidents of a similar nature - often around London - of disability campaigners taking videos of issues with assistance which appear shocking but then it turns out have missed out almost the entirety of the beginning of the encounter or have cut out sections where staff have been present or offered support as you might expect. Then they’ve put themselves into deliberately difficult positions to prove a point where yes there was an inconvenience, but they’ve tried to frame this as discrimination.

I’m not going to sit here and suggest there aren’t genuine cases of disability assistance gone (very) wrong because there are but there are three sides to every story - their side, your side and the truth.

 

[Samzino]

There have been incidents of a similar nature - often around London - of disability campaigners taking videos of issues with assistance which appear shocking but then it turns out have missed out almost the entirety of the beginning of the encounter or have cut out sections where staff have been present or offered support as you might expect. Then they’ve put themselves into deliberately difficult positions to prove a point where yes there was an inconvenience, but they’ve tried to frame this as discrimination.

I’m not going to sit here and suggest there aren’t genuine cases of disability assistance gone (very) wrong because there are but there are three sides to every story - their side, your side and the truth.

Perfectly said.

 

[Dave W]

Not pointing fingers but the tape starts rolling as she pulls herself up the flight of stairs, it didn't roll when she was initially in the wheelchair when staff gave the only option at that time of a Double back but via taxi for the return leg to Dalston.

You've referred twice to the option given for a taxi either at the outset or by going on to Highbury and Islington.

I've travelled extensively with a wheelchair user, and the way these apparent easements are applied are a clear source of frustration and anxiety. What price the station staff at Highbury and Islington display a similar amount of condescension as that at Dalston, and decline to help? How long would this taxi have taken TfL to source? How long would it have added to her journey time? (and more than the factual answers to this question, what is the person's perception of these?)

One can reflect cynically on what she could have done, what she shouldn't have done, and when things were filmed, but that does nothing to solve the core issue that a disabled person with a hotel virtually on top of a station, which was constructed to relatively modern standards, cannot use it.

The further issue of the staff response is unforgivable in any circumstance, but I think everyone who has contributed so far is in agreement on that point.

 

[Busaholic]

There have been incidents of a similar nature - often around London - of disability campaigners taking videos of issues with assistance which appear shocking but then it turns out have missed out almost the entirety of the beginning of the encounter or have cut out sections where staff have been present or offered support as you might expect. Then they’ve put themselves into deliberately difficult positions to prove a point where yes there was an inconvenience, but they’ve tried to frame this as discrimination.

I’m not going to sit here and suggest there aren’t genuine cases of disability assistance gone (very) wrong because there are but there are three sides to every story - their side, your side and the truth.

If it weren't for 'disability campaigners' then there'd be a lot less in the way of measures supposedly made to assist those with mobility issues in the first place. I don't blame someone who has experienced more than the very odd issue with travelling because advertised facilities weren't available/working to start filming their journeys. After all, people are videoing the most asinine things for no apparent reason and no possible interest to anyone else, so why not 'audit' a journey and release the video if something goes amiss? Of course videos are usually presented edited, and you'd be a fool if you didn't present your 'case'. if any, in its most favourable light.

 

[norbitonflyer]

That is normal procedure for lifts out of service yes - continue on to next station and circulate.

Not an option at dalston Junction, as it is a single island platform (with two bays), so she would have ended up back on the same platform. (Although it seems the lift would have been fixed by then...........)

 

[43066]

There have been incidents of a similar nature - often around London - of disability campaigners taking videos of issues with assistance which appear shocking but then it turns out have missed out almost the entirety of the beginning of the encounter or have cut out sections where staff have been present or offered support as you might expect. Then they’ve put themselves into deliberately difficult positions to prove a point where yes there was an inconvenience, but they’ve tried to frame this as discrimination.

I’m not going to sit here and suggest there aren’t genuine cases of disability assistance gone (very) wrong because there are but there are three sides to every story - their side, your side and the truth.

A very sensible and balanced post.

It’s clearly suboptimal that the lift was out of order (and the laughing wasn’t ideal - albeit it isn’t clear from the video what the exact context of that was), but she was given an option of assistance, chose to refuse it, and also chose to be filmed crawling up the stairs, presumably to generate clicks/headlines.

It seems to have worked.

 

[Samzino]

You've referred twice to the option given for a taxi either at the outset or by going on to Highbury and Islington.

I've travelled extensively with a wheelchair user, and the way these apparent easements are applied are a clear source of frustration and anxiety. What price the station staff at Highbury and Islington display a similar amount of condescension as that at Dalston, and decline to help? How long would this taxi have taken TfL to source? How long would it have added to her journey time? (and more than the factual answers to this question, what is the person's perception of these?)

The taxi is a well used resource for mitigation if especially in this case the User cannot use the lifts at their intended station. Staff at Dalston have many protocols like other rail colleagues would to let control know aswell as the station she'd be heading to so that the taxi and etc would be all prepared in advance, staff their notified that the PRM is on their way and at that "only" if the Individual accepts. If a PRM(Passenger with restricted mobility) refused the mitigation of a circulation involving the Taxi, then there is little staff at Dalston can do nor any staff for that matter as they're not going to drag the individual into a train to the next stop and then onto a Taxi without consent.

Laughing as we've already agreed is 100% not part of that solution and no doubt there is some tea with no biscuits that has gone on with the individuals but in this case the only mitigation / solution was the double back and that for X amount of reason wasn't taken.

 

[Retorus]

Are you actually accusing me of sarcasm or are you referring to another post?

As for the source, I do not click on articles by clickbait 'media sources' such as the Standard, does that disqualify me from querying a post?

If you can’t even be bothered to do a courtesy check, yes.

 

[yorkie]

Sounds to me like the only thing the railway did wrong was for the rail employees to be laughing about it; such behaviour is clearly unacceptable.

If assistance is offered, but a customer chooses to arrange for themselves to be filmed taking alternative actions, that is their choice, but the full story should be revealed, in the interest of transparency.

...As for the source, I do not click on articles by clickbait 'media sources' such as the Standard...

Forum rules require that if anyone is making a reference to something from an external source, this should be linked to (or, where there is no online source, clearly state) as well as quoted; no-one has to visit a site such as The Standard to get the basic information regarding the matter in question. If any forum member has not done this, please simply report the post.

 

[Horizon22]

If it weren't for 'disability campaigners' then there'd be a lot less in the way of measures supposedly made to assist those with mobility issues in the first place. I don't blame someone who has experienced more than the very odd issue with travelling because advertised facilities weren't available/working to start filming their journeys. After all, people are videoing the most asinine things for no apparent reason and no possible interest to anyone else, so why not 'audit' a journey and release the video if something goes amiss? Of course videos are usually presented edited, and you'd be a fool if you didn't present your 'case'. if any, in its most favourable light.

Sure, and there’s definitely an issue with a number of things including (as I said) the lack of info regarding the lifts being out of service. But the lack of context leads people to jump to conclusions and as I said the truth is somewhere in between.

Not an option at dalston Junction, as it is a single island platform (with two bays), so she would have ended up back on the same platform. (Although it seems the lift would have been fixed by then...........)

Yes I also commented on this - so the alternative is an accessible taxi. Now that it is indeed inconvenient but again in the real world what else can you do? Lifts go in/out of service every day and that it is one of those things. There are also lift entrapments every day. Very rarely is a station fully inaccessible (that has lifts in the first place) This is just an unfortunate sequences of events, which was then handled seemingly spectacularly badly by customer-facing staff

I do find it very suspect that apparently staff said it had “been out for a month” but within minutes (whilst the passenger was there) it had been fixed by an engineer on site…sounds to be like this was a short-notice outage so why again they were saying something clearly untrue is odd. If it was a planned closure TfL would have had publicity all over the place & a wheelchair user would have definitely checked beforehand.

 

[Wolfie]

From what seems to be coming out in a report, she was actually offered assistance at Shoreditch High street where her Journey started and this is noted, however, refused assistance. On the platform of Dalston there was no use made of the Help points, once she was approached by staff she didn't want to take the Train to the next stop Highbury and Islington of which a Taxi would be provided back to Dalston by LO for the inconvenience.

The staff and the mechanic did not cover themselves in Glory either especially laughing, if you can't deal with the situation then its better to have stayed away, whilst being non present would have been an issue itself at least it wouldn't have been blatant disrespect. Staff was indeed around, of their usefulness to the situation after the initial solution of a next stop was denied, not so much. There's still quite a bit of investigating going on from what little I know of which is more so finding out the remaining bits and pieces and solutions for next time avoiding such a situation.

Highbury and Islington is not the next stop, Canonbury is (l know because l live there!). Both Highbury and Canonbury have reasonably regular Overground lift failures too.

 

[Samzino]

Highbury and Islington is not the next stop, Canonbury is (l know because l live there!). Both Highbury and Canonbury have reasonably regular Overground lift failures too.

Yes but on that day both couldn't have had issues if they were the alternative for the Taxi. By next stop for the double back I mean the next possible stop to offer proper assistance is Highbury and Islington. Which is also a 9min drive or 15 to 20min total back trip.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I do find it very suspect that apparently staff said it had “been out for a month” but within minutes (whilst the passenger was there) it had been fixed by an engineer on site…sounds to be like this was a short-notice outage so why again they were saying something clearly untrue is odd.

Maybe the lift had had a fault for a while that caused it to keep tripping out, but each time only needed someone to come and override a trip switch?

 

[357]

Couple of points I can make as former station staff.

Staff can't carry the woman, and are specifically instructed not to carry people/babies/children etc.

The lift may well have had problems for a month intermittently - saying it's been broken for a month could mean "it's stopped working at least once a day or multiple times weekly for the last month".

I never had anything but hassle getting control to agree to a taxi - they would regularly insist that the passenger should get a bus instead. Then, they would only get the taxi between stations (it would have been far more helpful in this case to get it to the woman's hotel) and additionally the waiting time was never less than an hour despite being in London with a taxi rank outside the station. Once it was three hours.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What can the station staff actually do in this situation? I thought they weren't insured to help. At my local underground station women with buggies are always left to find a way up the stairs themselves because the station staff refused to help.

 

[357]

What can the station staff actually do in this situation? I thought they weren't insured to help. At my local underground station women with buggies are always left to find a way up the stairs themselves because the station staff refused to help.

I believe it has been the same instruction to most/all companies for at least 15 years. It's fine to carry the buggy under normal manual handling instructions providing the passenger removes any babies beforehand.

Imagine the chaos if a member of staff slipped, dropped the buggy, and a baby fell down the stairs!

 

[Silenos]

I do find it very suspect that apparently staff said it had “been out for a month” but within minutes (whilst the passenger was there) it had been fixed by an engineer on site…

One also wonders why they didn’t say to her ‘the engineer is working on the lift now, could you possibly wait while we check how much longer he thinks it will take’?

 

[Adam Williams]

Station staff call control and the information coordinator informs London Underground Control Centre (for all TfL modes) who then mark the relevant information on journey planners / TfL Go

I can't help but wonder why this is reliant on manual human intervention at all.

NR do live lift & escalator status reporting based on data from the actual controllers (or at least try to), why can't TfL?

 

[Lucan]

I've been reading on other forums etc that this was a stunt by a campaigner. Perhaps the staff laughed because they were joining in the spirit of it, or perhaps they were right to mock it. Unless we were there we cannot tell, but I'm reserving judgement. Stunts to make a point (justified or not) have proliferated now that everyone has a movie camera in their phone and can place the result on social media.

Has anyone asked who was holding the phone that recorded it, and what their status is in this affair?

 

[robert thomas]

Isn't it likely that the staff were laughing with the lady at the irony of the lift being repaired by the time she'd reached the top of the stairs?

 

[Horizon22]

I can't help but wonder why this is reliant on manual human intervention at all.

NR do live lift & escalator status reporting based on data from the actual controllers (or at least try to), why can't TfL?

Controllers still need to know a lift is out of service.

For TfL there are lots of individual line controls - and places like the Elizabeth line, DLR & Overground which are concessions - who do not manage this info centrally. This is why it goes through LUCC (London Underground Control Centre).

Isn't it likely that the staff were laughing with the lady at the irony of the lift being repaired by the time she'd reached the top of the stairs?

Possibly, at the lady which is still completely disrespectful.