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Incident at Wandsworth Common 07/08/16

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Bertie the bus

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As said by another poster, you do not need to lean out to open the doors from the inside. You just need one of your arms out.

That assumes you know where the door handle is. Rail staff and many enthusiasts no doubt do but irregular passengers or those used to non-slam door stock almost certainly don't. You only have to travel on the Cumbrian Coast loco hauled stock to see how much trouble many passengers have opening the doors on slam door stock with bars.
 
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Varney

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And the train is always stationary before the doors are unlocked. As to it being another train, highly unlikely as stated by many on here given the distance involved

No other train was involved. The incident happened on the Up Brighton Fast on the cess side where there are no other tracks. Most likely (IMHO) contact was made with the signal gantry post for the down fast signal VC641 south of Balham.
 
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GB

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That assumes you know where the door handle is. Rail staff and many enthusiasts no doubt do but irregular passengers or those used to non-slam door stock almost certainly don't. You only have to travel on the Cumbrian Coast loco hauled stock to see how much trouble many passengers have opening the doors on slam door stock with bars.

Maybe, but it not difficult to see where the lock is located from the inside of the train and thus make a reasonable estimation where handle is on the outside.
 

Bertie the bus

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I agree, you can tell from the plate on the inside but you really can't expect normal passengers, who might be in a bit of a flap about not being able to get out, to think of that instantly.

Staff and enthusiasts seem to think because they know something everybody else should do.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Last incident like this was someone who clouted some scaffolding at Denmark Hill - and before that an "enthusiast" on a steam special.....
 

Tio Terry

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Last incident like this was someone who clouted some scaffolding at Denmark Hill - and before that an "enthusiast" on a steam special.....

That's the one I remember, Denmark Hill. A Contractor had erected scaffolding too close to the track. Some young man felt unwell, put his head out the window to be sick and got decapitated.
 

ExRes

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Should anyone wish to read it there is an interview with a passenger who is said to be the only eye witness to this incident

It is on the Crawley Observer website which, as it seems to be infested with advertising, I will not link to, I will leave that to the individual forum member
 

Varney

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Should anyone wish to read it there is an interview with a passenger who is said to be the only eye witness to this incident

It is on the Crawley Observer website which, as it seems to be infested with advertising, I will not link to, I will leave that to the individual forum member

Certainly a far more credible eye witness report than the previous one by "Rhianna from Battersea".

What a horrible thing for her and her daughter to witness.

The person involved would appear to have been a fellow local enthusiast enjoying the last days of the 442's. RIP lad.
 
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trainmania100

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There is another article on the home page of the metro with a gruesome title. I won't post a link however. Does anyone know if the "obstrution" as it were, was a 377/5?
 

Domh245

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There is another article on the home page of the metro with a gruesome title. I won't post a link however. Does anyone know if the "obstrution" as it were, was a 377/5?

It's been said several times now that it was a piece of infrastructure (although I'm not sure what bit of infrastructure) that he hit, not another train.
 

physics34

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It's been said several times now that it was a piece of infrastructure (although I'm not sure what bit of infrastructure) that he hit, not another train.

as of yesterday, no one is sure which piece of infrustructure it was....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only VEPs for East Grinstead electrification. The CIGs got window bars after a later incident IIRC involving Clayton Tunnel. Of course, once fitted, they could work to East Grinstead in their later years.

Southeastern units didn't get bars until the very late stages.

didnt most SE VEPs restricted window opening anyway or was that the SWT ones?
 

Varney

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According to Wikipedia the distance between the bogie pivots on a class 442 coach is 16 metres. I have roughly calculated (in Google Earth Pro) that the radius of the curve at the point of the signal gantry post for the down fast signal VC641 south of Balham, as approx 650m to 700m. This is the most likely lineside structure to have been involved.

Using these figures the centre point of a coach passing this post is between 45 to 49mm closer than at the bogie pivot point, not a negligible amount.

Obviously the guards door may not located exactly central in the coach, but it shows that window "hanging" from this door has a slightly increased risk from less clearance and may well have been a notable factor in this incident.
 
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Iskra

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According to Wikipedia the distance between the bogie pivots on a class 442 coach is 16 metres. I have roughly calculated (in Google Earth Pro) that the radius of the curve at the point of the signal gantry post for the down fast signal VC641 south of Balham, as approx 650m to 700m. This is the most likely lineside structure to have been involved.

Using these figures the centre point of a coach passing this post is between 45 to 49mm closer than at the bogie pivot point, not a negligible amount.

Obviously the guards door may not located exactly central in the coach, but it shows that window "hanging" from this door has a slightly increased risk and may well have been a notable factor in this incident.

Wow- fantastic analysis.

Do we know whether this was an enthusiast (with it being a 442) or a normal?
 

superkev

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Anyone know what the allowed minimum clearance is to lineside structures before window bars are fitted as I believe in Cumbria. And, thinking of drivers what is the clearance with bars fitted.
Sorry if this has been covered earlier.
K
 
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mr_moo

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Anyone know what the allowed minimum clearance is to lineside structures before window bars are fitted as I believe in Cumbria. And, thinking of drivers what is the clearance with bars fitted.
Sorry if this has been covered earlier.
K

As a track engineer, I can assist:

Normally, we try to provide 'full normal' clearances, where everything would be at least 1.625mm away from the nearest running edge.
This can be reduced to 1.624m (yep, 1mm different, great standards!) for things less than 2m long and signals, to 1.470m for OLE masts, and 1.364m for signals located between two tracks with insufficient space for normal clearances.

If clearances are reduced below those levels, we then go into calculations of each train vs each piece of infrastructure so we go into the lists of stock that are 'cleared' for a particular route.

We would try to provide a normal minimum clearance, from a train to a fixed anything, of 100mm.
This sounds low, but has some caveats:
1) This is from the kinematic envelope of the train, not from the static profile. In other words, we use software to determine the train's maximum ever size, taking into account all possibilities such as suspension failed, tilt (where fitted) failed, crush laden, empty, in high winds, full range of speeds etc etc - all things which will affect, ever so slightly, where the train will be in any particular passage. There are all added up and a shape produced for each train that is then used for clearance calculations on each pice of track. It's done for each structure, so takes into account the radius, cant and speed.
2) It's less than the normal clearances as given above, and thus requires specific approval at design stage before it's permitted. However, gaining approval is relatively easy and there are a huge number of instances of these clearances in existence all over the network.
3) The software has a lot of tolerances built in, and it's extremely unlikely that they will all ever happen together, so the actual clearance provided is often 30-50mm+ greater than the number that pops out of the software.

There is also a further requirement that, where trains with openable windows run, this be increased to at least 450mm at the height of the window to allow for persons leaning out. This is not mandated though, only a 'where possible'.

If we can't provide that, we can reduce this to a 'reduced clearance' of 50mm. This requires approval that is harder to get, and must be accompanied by a risk assessment and possibly mitigation measures, such as provision of enhanced track and structure monitoring to ensure movements over time do not compromise this further.

If we are still struggling, we can reduce this to 'special reduced clearance' of 25mm. This is hard to get approved and is nearly always only approved on a temporary basis with good risk mitigation measures in place, such as it being a concrete structure next to slab track.

How this relates to when window bars are provided I'm not sure, but I think it's up to each TOC. It's easy for the TOCs to see what clearances exist on any particular route they are planning to run trains along so I think it's up to them to do their own risk assessments of how many tight clearances they will pass, how fast they will be going, how visible they are etc. I'll leave someone from a rolling stock background to clarify that though - I may be wrong.
 

Busaholic

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Last incident like this was someone who clouted some scaffolding at Denmark Hill - and before that an "enthusiast" on a steam special.....

According to P.M. radio programme today, in 1997 and 1990 respectively, so not much cause for moral panic to set in over the subject you would think.
 

jack31439

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The lad involved was an enthusiast and fellow railway worker who was an ex colleague of mine. Out of respect for the family, I won't say anymore until there is further news.
 

SPADTrap

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The lad involved was an enthusiast and fellow railway worker who was an ex colleague of mine. Out of respect for the family, I won't say anymore until there is further news.

Known to many of my railway colleagues also, thoughts to everyone :(
 

theblackwatch

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Now that more facts have emerged, can we please ask that anyone who posts in this thread shows some sensitivity and decorum - there are others on here who have lost a friend.
 

Trainfan344

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There has been a crowdfunding account set up for funeral costs for "Simon" :( Sounds like a tragic accident. Condolences to all of those who knew him.

https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/reuben-smith-1?utm_id=107&utm_term=RVz2m858v

Simon was a great freind of ours and a real light in the railway world. He was always smiling cheerful and would bend over backwards to help anyone. There's now a massive hole in our close knit community where he was.
He has been taken from us at the age of 24 it's far too young.

Please donate. I want to have this memorial train in his coach that he spent hours on and I want to help ease the burden of the cost of the funeral for his parents having had to bury my younger brother 11 months ago I know how hard it is.

Please donate in his memory

Reuben
On behalf of all Simons friends
https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/reuben-smith-1?utm_id=107&utm_term=RVz2m858v
 
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Cowley

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That's awful. So sorry to hear this.
 

talltim

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I agree, you can tell from the plate on the inside but you really can't expect normal passengers, who might be in a bit of a flap about not being able to get out, to think of that instantly.

Staff and enthusiasts seem to think because they know something everybody else should do.
I know where the handle is, but because I'm tall, I have to bend down (and maybe out) to reach it. Mind you I don't do it until the train has stopped anyway
 
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I went on a class 442 this afternoon. The windows of the slam doors in the middle of the third carriage were fully open on both sides (easily big enough to lean out of) for the entire journey between Brighton and London Victoria. I thought that Govia would have learnt from this incident and ensured that the windows were locked shut.
 

J-2739

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Now that more facts have emerged, can we please ask that anyone who posts in this thread shows some sensitivity and decorum - there are others on here who have lost a friend.

Some of my previous posts might have been insulting. Apologies for any discomfort to those who had a close relation to him.
 
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bramling

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I went on a class 442 this afternoon. The windows of the slam doors in the middle of the third carriage were fully open on both sides (easily big enough to lean out of) for the entire journey between Brighton and London Victoria. I thought that Govia would have learnt from this incident and ensured that the windows were locked shut.

What do Govia need to learn? Millions of people have safely used these trains over the last 25+ years. The lesson that needs to be learned is by those who choose to put themselves in danger by leaning out.

I don't see that anything needs to be done in response to this, perhaps save for ensuring "Danger - do not lean out of the window" signage is present where necessary.
 

Kentish Paul

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I went on a class 442 this afternoon. The windows of the slam doors in the middle of the third carriage were fully open on both sides (easily big enough to lean out of) for the entire journey between Brighton and London Victoria. I thought that Govia would have learnt from this incident and ensured that the windows were locked shut.

Maybe the aircon had failed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
as of yesterday, no one is sure which piece of infrustructure it was....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


didnt most SE VEPs restricted window opening anyway or was that the SWT ones?

Don't forget that on a VEP you could open the door from the inside using the sliding catch. The window opening on SE ones were restricted.
 

SpacePhoenix

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When guards are using the door for dispatching, do they lean out the window to make sure the train leaves the platform with no incident or do they have the door open?
 

Groningen

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So your windows can still be opened. In the Netherlands it is only possible with plan V material. In Germany maybe in the old IC wagons. It happened in the windows where there is also the exit? So that pole was standing close to the tracks and as a razorblade..... did its job.
 
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