Insomnia and anxiety issues anyone?

[GS250]

Definitely a subject worth discussing.

Have suffered with bouts of insomnia down the years. Tried sleep medication and CBT but seem to come to the same conclusion that it's anxiety about sleeping or the next day that's driving it. Definitely coming to a head now as I've recently quit a job due to persistent insomnia.

Generally...if I've not got to worry about getting up the next day or a particular event....I'm fine.

Did try anti anxiety medication but that actually made it much worse!

Anyone else suffered from this difficult to treat condition? And more importantly did you ever find a cure?

Looking at meditation etc and mind calming techniques at the moment.

(Maybe not reading political threads could help!)

 

[Pete_uk]

Yes, I'm on Citalopram and Pregabalin and sometimes wonder why I bother.

I started on the Citalopram in about 2004 because of the anxiety of traveling to college on the train.

 

[northwichcat]

Also had CBT for anxiety. With CBT the approach of different therapists can be different, so if it didn't work with one it may be more successful with another. The one I had the first time didn't want to do an analysis of what went wrong at a work social event, which was related to why my mood had dropped and remained low. When I asked about preparing for a future one, she told me that was weeks away so I shouldn't be worrying about that now.

Depending what you're qualified to do, maybe consider a role that allows you to work from home, as it prevents the need to travel. But working from home does require you to be motivated when it comes to getting exercise, fresh air and socialising.

 

[GS250]

Thanks for sharing your experiences so far. Appreciate this probably a male dominated forum and it can be a difficult subject for us to discuss.

To the above, yes I did have a fully remote IT role but it was my first real managerial role. It's more than possible that full time management just doesn't agree with me. There was also little flexibility in the role so the next one will need to be a lot more flexible AM. Probably lends itself more to a creative or volume judged role than needing to be there for the team. Happy to take a more regular work/life balance admin type role in the future.

Was your CBT on the NHS or private out of interest?

 

[northwichcat]

My CBT was through an employee benefit scheme. A self-referral saw me allocated a therapist who worked for OneBright.

 

[skyhigh]

Did try anti anxiety medication but that actually made it much worse!

Just a small point but often with certain types of anti-anxiety medication (such as fluoxetine) people will often feel worse rather than better for the first couple of weeks before starting to see improvements. The NHS say it can take up to 6 weeks before your body is settled with the medication.

So if you gave up after a week or two as not helping it may be worth discussing the possible effects and benefits with your GP again.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I have two jobs both part time, one is self employed and the other is employed and is a 10 mile drive. If I have to be up before 7:00am I tend to be awake a lot of the night worrying about not being able to sleep. It has got so bad that on a couple of occasions I had to get buses to work. If I am not in work the next day I tend to sleep a lot better although I still wake up a lot in the middle of the night.

I have had CBT before which I found really helped, but that was to help with my anxiety rather than not sleeping.

 

[JD2168]

Yes a long term Depression & Anxiety sufferer in myself. Has affected myself whilst at work a times, but is manageable.

 

[bspahh]

Definitely a subject worth discussing.

Have suffered with bouts of insomnia down the years. Tried sleep medication and CBT but seem to come to the same conclusion that it's anxiety about sleeping or the next day that's driving it. Definitely coming to a head now as I've recently quit a job due to persistent insomnia.

Generally...if I've not got to worry about getting up the next day or a particular event....I'm fine.

Did try anti anxiety medication but that actually made it much worse!

Anyone else suffered from this difficult to treat condition? And more importantly did you ever find a cure?

Looking at meditation etc and mind calming techniques at the moment.

There are some specific forms of insomnia, like sleep apnoea and restless leg syndrome, where there are effective treatments.

Sleep is a habit. It happens when various things switch off. If any of these things keeps going, then you don't sleep.

For insomnia from anxiety and depression, the treatments are not as good, and you need to balance the effects and side-effects.

Good "Sleep Hygiene" is a combination of things like getting into a routine where you gradually wind down and relax as you get to bedtime. It helps to limit the amount of alcohol and caffeine in the evening, and reduce screen time. It might not get you to sleep, but there aren't many side effects from good sleep hygiene.

Traditional "sleeping tablets" like nitrazepam (Mogadon), are effective over a short period, but the effect wears off, and coming off can cause more problems.

There haven't been many new insomnia drugs in a while, but Dual Orexin Receptor Antagonists are starting to become available in the UK.

I know someone who had insomnia, anxiety and depression was referred to the sleep clinic at Papworth hospital, but that was 20 years ago. I understand that a lot of their techniques are available through an online service. I think this might be Sleep Station https://www.sleepstation.org.uk/ which is available with an NHS referral in some areas.

One technique for dealing with anxious thoughts in the middle of the night was to write them down in a notebook, so you can review them and deal with them the next day. Some things will be real issues, that you need to sort out, but others will not. It can help to cut down the worrying about worrying.

 

[dakta]

Anx and depression sufferer, Insomnia isn't really a problem anymore as the medication pretty much kills me, bit of a juggling act really as i'm typically a workaholic.

Am currently on a few stress management + CBT courses, not sure how helpful they'll be as for me the real solution is to resolve the stressful situation (which is predominantly a long term work issue (itself relating to my health) that has gone nuclear)

Have suffered it pretty much as long as I can remember, it comes and goes but lasts 6-9 months when it lands, never really found a cure, only distractions.

 

[Magdalia]

Good "Sleep Hygiene" is a combination of things like getting into a routine where you gradually wind down and relax as you get to bedtime. It helps to limit the amount of alcohol and caffeine in the evening, and reduce screen time. It might not get you to sleep, but there aren't many side effects from good sleep hygiene.

I was going to contribute to this yesterday, but it was getting too near to bedtime! I'm pleased to see that someone has been talking about sleep hygiene while I was asleep.

Generally...if I've not got to worry about getting up the next day or a particular event....I'm fine.

I'm writing this on the interpretation that you are not talking about working shifts. If you are working shifts, then what I'm about to say is much more difficult to apply.

I have experienced anxiety and stress to varying degrees ever since I first went to senior school, but I have never suffered from insomnia, or used medication or therapy.

Good sleep hygiene has always been critical for that. When I was a teenager I delivered morning newspapers and trained myself then to be awake at 0630 to start delivering at 0700. At University, I was the one who attended 0900 lectures so that lots of other people could copy my notes. I then commuted for 30 years needing to be up in time to get trains for work. I have been retired for more than a decade now but it is still rare for me to be still in bed much after 0700. And I have never done "festering in the pit" at weekends.

I only used to get bad sleep through anxiety if I had to be up ridiculously early to get trains or planes.

Sleep hygiene is what has enabled me to do that. I nearly always go to bed a few minutes either side of 2300. I don't take caffeine after about 1700. Another important factor is time of evening meal: at least 2 hours between eating and bedtime is essential, and 4 hours is preferable. If you can, make sure that the bedroom is only for sleeping, don't do "daytime" activities there, especially anything that involves using a smartphone (I deliberately don't have one of those).

In my younger days physical exercise was an important part of sleep hygiene, it is easier to sleep if the body is physically tired.

Routine in the lead up to bedtime is important: do the same things in the same order. And this needs to happen in the morning too. When I commuted there was no "recovery time" between the alarm going off and the train leaving the station. Again, everything was done in the same order, and distractions were not permitted.

In those days alarm clocks were mechanical and did not have a snooze option. I turned the alarm off and got out of bed immediately, though I'm not sure that was good for my health. Looking back 5-10 minutes of snooze, built into the morning timetable, would have been preferable. I know some people who positioned the alarm out of reach of the bed so they had to get out to switch it off.

As it happens, now is a very good time to start taking sleep hygiene seriously. We are approaching the short days of winter, and the clocks go back 1 hour next weekend. The most important thing I would recommend is that, all through the coming winter, get up at sunrise, whatever your plans for the day. And don't "burn the midnight oil", though a small number of exceptions for Christmas/New Year are permitted! The human body has evolved to be awake in daylight hours, use that to your advantage.

My advice would be to spend this week thinking about what good sleep hygiene should be like for you, so you can start doing those things when GMT starts next week.

 

[GS250]

Some interesting stories and feedback here. Agreed regarding sleep hygiene. I think its a good practice and one of which I'm not too bad at. Probably room to improve though.

Saying that though....I tend to sleep fine when there is nothing at stake the next day even when the 'rules' are heavily broken. However as has been alluded to above, if there is an early get up planned the next day or an expectation that I'm needed somewhere, then I totally capitulate and not uncommon to not sleep at all. Obviously this is a huge problem when it comes to work related events. I'll be honest I'd say around half of my sick days have been after zero or little sleep. The anxiety that it seems to trigger makes the day very difficult to face up to. And thus you have the vicious circle starting.

I jacked a fully remote IT Service Delivery Manager role in about a month ago. Only did 5 months there. It sounds pathetic but I was struggling to sleep even though I didn't need to be available until 08:30 remotely. I think the role just wasn't for me in the end. 4 -5 nights with zero sleep in as many months and loads with 2-3 hours just doesn't do you good. Am in a position of privilege though. My missus earns reasonably well and can cover all the bills. I've got savings and now have time to try and get the help I need. Once we get the Air B n B license here in Skye we should be able to make a reasonable income over the year. So that with some part time afternoon work will be enough to live on for the future. So there's a route out of this if I can't fix the anxiety and sleep issues to be able to hold down a decent job.

Would rather get it fixed though and maybe a more flexible remote job would be much better for me. Civvy service or another non profit organisation maybe the way to go. Not really out for earning bigger money any more.

 

[Magdalia]

here in Skye

This is an interesting bit. It means that you have much bigger variations in daylight through the year than, for example, here in the Fens. Have you always lived that far north, and have you considered whether that could be part of the problem?

maybe a more flexible remote job would be much better for me

This may sound counter-intuitive, but I think that you need to think about whether what you need is structure not flexibility, with work that starts and finishes at the same times every day. That way you could hopefully develop a daily sleep hygiene routine that works, removing the trigger for the anxiety.

At one stage in my working career my employer got into psychometric testing with the Margerison-McCann model, where I was almost off the scale for flexible. I used to joke that a truly flexible person has to be able to embrace structure when it is beneficial, and that definitely applied to sleep hygiene.

 

[DC1989]

Do people's night-time anxiety consist of not being able to sleep due to worry? I tend to catastrophise some nights and not get a wink but then in the day I'm pretty much fine

 

[GS250]

This is an interesting bit. It means that you have much bigger variations in daylight through the year than, for example, here in the Fens. Have you always lived that far north, and have you considered whether that could be part of the problem?


This may sound counter-intuitive, but I think that you need to think about whether what you need is structure not flexibility, with work that starts and finishes at the same times every day. That way you could hopefully develop a daily sleep hygiene routine that works, removing the trigger for the anxiety.

At one stage in my working career my employer got into psychometric testing with the Margerison-McCann model, where I was almost off the scale for flexible. I used to joke that a truly flexible person has to be able to embrace structure when it is beneficial, and that definitely applied to sleep hygiene.

Thanks for the feedback here. I worked in greater London for 17 years at the same 9-5 ish IT job. Sleep was always an intermittent problem. What actually acted as a 'workaround' was when we introduced a 10-6 shift which gave me some relief when I was having a bad time sleep wise. Not the same pressure to get up early in the morning etc.

I totally get what you are saying about 'structure'. I think though in my case this won't help me. I do have a fair structure already. Morning walk, work outs, bed at 10pm during the week. Even though I'm currently not working I'm awake by 8 and out of bed by 830. Do not want to fall into the habit of laying in all morning or staying up way too late.

My absolute best periods of sleep were during the lockdown where most of our team admitted to laying in until 9ish and then checking teams etc. It was that lack of pressure of needing to be available at a certain time that helped me massively. Slept like a baby for most of it.

I could recall loads of irrational episodes where a I barely slept but I'll bore you all to sleep (with any luck). I think it's a mix of excitement and anxiety thats doing me in.

However for those with depression....I really feel for you. It's absolutely horrible.

 

[bspahh]

Do you struggle to get to sleep, or is it that you sleep lightly and don't feel refreshed, or wake up early?

If you have been in bed for half an hour and not gone to sleep, then its good to get up, potter about a bit, and then try again. Lying in bed, trying and failing to sleep can just end up focussing on the problem.

I personally don't have a problem sleeping. However, I find it useful to have an MP3 player with ear buds. I can set it to play a podcast for 30 minutes whilst I go off. The ear buds then block out ambient noise, like my partner snoring, that could otherwise keep me awake. They are loud enough for me to hear but not her.

 

[malc-c]

Had several anxiety lead breakdowns since 2013, some were so life changing they left me diagnosed with clinical depression since. 18 month ago two prolapse disk resulted in nerve damage in my right leg and I was prescribed medication to help me sleep. I now get 7 to 8 sleep but between 3am and 10am. I can retire early but still don't drop off until gone 2am most mornings, or I tried staying awake for 30+ hours so that I was tired when retiring for bed at a more sociable time to try and shift the pattern before midnight, but that didn't work. When I do go to bed between 2 and 3, I will often fall off to sleep in 20 minutes or less, and fall into a deep dream. I have had dreams every night since taking the medication for my back, so it's quality sleep, just between silly hours. But then like one of the posters above, I'm out of work at the moment, so it doesn't matter if I get up at 9am or 10am.

There's a shed load of stuff going on in my life at the moment, and I'm facing a big change next year, and some days I just want it all to go away as just the thought of what's needed raises the blood pressure and panic starts. Anti-depressants can help, but whilst they lift up the low mood, they also take off the high times. A lot of the time anxiety or worry is triggered through your subconscious, from cost of living worries, to anything heard on the news. Most of my day is routine, rinse and repeat most days, and doing anything outside of that routine can raise the levels of anxiety. I'm certainly not the confident IT technician you see in my avatar (my hair is also a lot greyer !)

Depression is a horrible thing. You can be surrounded by loving family, be reasonably in control of finances, and have a roof over your head, but that doesn't stop you wanting to kill yourself. I'll be honest and admit I've contemplated it on a few occasions, finding myself standing on a platform in the small hours. But something always managed to stop me from stepping off that platform when a freight train stormed through.

When my wife wanted out of our 37 year marriage and left me, I found the pressure of everything associated (divorce, selling the house, and moving hundreds of miles away form the kids as I can't afford anything where I lived) took me back to that dark place once again. But I was determined to turn my life around... I got another GSD, the third we've owned. Through walking him I crawled out of my shell and started talking to other people, the talking helped and was like a therapy. The confidence it has given me has helped me deal with what's facing me next year. I still have bouts of anxiety over financials and worry what will happen when my savings runs out, which hopefully won't be before the house gets sold... but all these things add to the worries that can prevent you sleeping, or having a silly sleeping pattern, you just have no real control over it.

I thought I would post a picture of my therapist... he's got me away from my PC and out into the fresh air. Through him I've lost a stone and a half, and generally a lot healthier. He ensures I'm never alone, and knows just when to give me a pickup when I'm struggling by presenting his ball for a game.



I would recommend this sort of therapy to anyone

 

[Kaliwax]

Im on setraline 150mg for about a year now. It helps, have bad days sometimes where I think whats the point and then more good days. I struggled with therapy in the past whether its the therapist or the type of therapy I don't know. I worked for an employer few years back, who wasn't very understanding of my mental health issues plus my disability and almost lost my job because of it.

 

[MasterSpenny]

I have anxiety issues when I’m going to do something that I really don’t want to be in the scenario. Such as the GCSEs and exams. However it seems to always be on the 1st case. I don’t take anything, I just get over it naturally

 

[dakta]

Im on setraline 150mg for about a year now. It helps, have bad days sometimes where I think whats the point and then more good days. I struggled with therapy in the past whether its the therapist or the type of therapy I don't know. I worked for an employer few years back, who wasn't very understanding of my mental health issues plus my disability and almost lost my job because of it.

I've just been put on that, had something else previously but whilst effective it had some pretty nasty side effects

I work in a company that champions health and is actually one of the leading providers of care in this regard, I've told two managers due to impact at work, regretted it both times and I advise extreme caution with it

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Definitely a subject worth discussing.

Have suffered with bouts of insomnia down the years. Tried sleep medication and CBT but seem to come to the same conclusion that it's anxiety about sleeping or the next day that's driving it. Definitely coming to a head now as I've recently quit a job due to persistent insomnia.

Generally...if I've not got to worry about getting up the next day or a particular event....I'm fine.

Did try anti anxiety medication but that actually made it much worse!

Anyone else suffered from this difficult to treat condition? And more importantly did you ever find a cure?

Looking at meditation etc and mind calming techniques at the moment.

(Maybe not reading political threads could help!)

Have you had a proper medical workup regarding your insomnia. Are you absolutely sure it's about anxiety about sleeping or having to get up the next day?

Can you think back to when this started; can you remember a "trigger" moment?

 

[M&NEJ]

Do people's night-time anxiety consist of not being able to sleep due to worry? I tend to catastrophise some nights and not get a wink but then in the day I'm pretty much fine

Yes to this!

 

[malc-c]

Im on setraline 150mg for about a year now. It helps, have bad days sometimes where I think whats the point and then more good days.

I've just been put on that, had something else previously but whilst effective it had some pretty nasty side effects

Setraline seems to be the favored anti-depressant these days. Like Dakta, I was given something else which didn't suit me and was switched to Setraline six years ago. The most common side effects most people experience when starting setraline (heightened anxieties, feeling sick, and no appetite ) tend to last for the first 3-6 weeks before setting down. My dose was reduced after being given Amitriptyline as that also helps as an anti-depressant.

A word of caution.. discuss your mental health with the GP, and any reduction needs to be a planed event over a period of time. Don't go cold turkey and just stop taking them. The side effects are not pleasant and if on a high dose could be dangerous. I was on 100mg following a few events in 2012, and went cold turkey a year or two later, as I felt that whilst they helped with the lows, they also took off he edge of the good days.. it wasn't nice!! (and I also got a bollocking from my GP when I went to them for an untreated issue and asked why the repeat prescription had been stopped as they had no notes to instigate this !)

 

[GS250]

Setraline seems to be the favored anti-depressant these days. Like Dakta, I was given something else which didn't suit me and was switched to Setraline six years ago. The most common side effects most people experience when starting setraline (heightened anxieties, feeling sick, and no appetite ) tend to last for the first 3-6 weeks before setting down. My dose was reduced after being given Amitriptyline as that also helps as an anti-depressant.

A word of caution.. discuss your mental health with the GP, and any reduction needs to be a planed event over a period of time. Don't go cold turkey and just stop taking them. The side effects are not pleasant and if on a high dose could be dangerous. I was on 100mg following a few events in 2012, and went cold turkey a year or two later, as I felt that whilst they helped with the lows, they also took off he edge of the good days.. it wasn't nice!! (and I also got a bollocking from my GP when I went to them for an untreated issue and asked why the repeat prescription had been stopped as they had no notes to instigate this !)

Wise words. Sounds like you've really been through the mill when it comes to mental illness. Depression is indeed another level on from anxiety but too much of the latter can cause the former. Especially if it results in long term unemployment and financial worries.

Have you had a proper medical workup regarding your insomnia. Are you absolutely sure it's about anxiety about sleeping or having to get up the next day?

Can you think back to when this started; can you remember a "trigger" moment?

Spoke to a CBT practitioner yesterday. Going to have a few more weekly sessions with her. For now she's in agreement that my problems with sleep are indeed related to anxiety about forthcoming events and historic episodes of zero or little sleep as a result. Have forms to fill in and maybe we will get further into the issue as the sessions progress.

 

[Kaliwax]

Setraline seems to be the favored anti-depressant these days. Like Dakta, I was given something else which didn't suit me and was switched to Setraline six years ago. The most common side effects most people experience when starting setraline (heightened anxieties, feeling sick, and no appetite ) tend to last for the first 3-6 weeks before setting down. My dose was reduced after being given Amitriptyline as that also helps as an anti-depressant.

A word of caution.. discuss your mental health with the GP, and any reduction needs to be a planed event over a period of time. Don't go cold turkey and just stop taking them. The side effects are not pleasant and if on a high dose could be dangerous. I was on 100mg following a few events in 2012, and went cold turkey a year or two later, as I felt that whilst they helped with the lows, they also took off he edge of the good days.. it wasn't nice!! (and I also got a bollocking from my GP when I went to them for an untreated issue and asked why the repeat prescription had been stopped as they had no notes to instigate this !)

Yes, when I first started taking them, I had sides affects of feeling sick.

I'll admit, I did go cold turkey and stopped them completely months back, but I realised I made a huge mistake and that was really irresponsible and silly of me, so got back into contact with GP, GP was concerned about what happened so put me back on them and upped the dosage. I won't be making that mistake again

 

[Trackman]

About 35 years agoo I was in involved in a really bad car accident that wasn't my fault.
I couldnt sleep and suffered from anxiety and panic attacks and really thought I was going to die.
I was prescribed Benzos (which I dont think they hand out now) and they were fantastic.. but with a very major drawback.. addiction and withdrawals.
To combat this I bought some self help books that really helped, basically they explain what is happening to you.
I also learned relaxation techinques to sleep which are used by the milatary too.. helped with shift work!
I still have 'black dog' (depression) now and again like every 6 months, but I use self hypnosis now which I learned online for free.
Plenty of fresh air and excercise is a key too.

 

[malc-c]

What's also changed these days is that mental health is recognized more and the stigma it used to have a few decades back is now a lot less, if not gone altogether. This thread (and similar threads like it) is testimony to that.

Medication helps, but its not the "cure" for mental health. It's managing to change your outlook on life. To be positive and have confidence in yourself that you can do things, no matter how small or complex they be. To find purpose, and to have supportive friends or family that pat you on the back when you want to announce that trivial achievement that seems epic to you. Taking each day as it comes help. Dwelling on how well you will / won't cope with an up and coming event only lets that anxiety build up. These forums are a great way to open up and off load. For most of us it's anonymous, which is great as it removes any barrier where face to face meetings might reduce the openness.

The only drawback to all of this is that when you fall down that deep dark hole called depression, non of this matters and the significance of all that positive attitude can be swamped with negativity. The feeling of worthlessness and failure can be very overwhelming at times. I've found myself on the brink of taking my own life on more than one occasion... but somehow managed to pull myself back, and to this day can't put my finger on what it was, but I'm still here.

Having recently separated from my wife after nearly 40 years of marriage I'm now having to face selling the house and moving somewhere, hopefully buying a house outright with my half of the proceeds. I'm dreading it, especially as my income has dropped and there will be a time where my savings will run out which is dictating the time line. But I'm determined to look on this as a positive opportunity to turn my life around. I've spent lots of time on right move and found decent properties can be had for the projected share of the proceeds, albeit 150 miles further north than my current location. But it's taken away that fear of being homeless. I'm sure there will be days where I won't cope with things...but I'll just have to manage, and give myself that pat on the back for every small hurdle I manage to overcome.

Guys stay positive, if you feeling low use this forum and post how you feel, it helps !

 

[GS250]

Agreed depression can be crippling and is another level from anxiety or 'low mood" episodes.

If you can get help before you get to the horrible depressive stage then all the better. However, in real life it's not that easy.

 

[M&NEJ]

Having recently separated from my wife after nearly 40 years of marriage I'm now having to face selling the house and moving somewhere, hopefully buying a house outright with my half of the proceeds. I'm dreading it, especially as my income has dropped and there will be a time where my savings will run out which is dictating the time line. But I'm determined to look on this as a positive opportunity to turn my life around. I've spent lots of time on right move and found decent properties can be had for the projected share of the proceeds, albeit 150 miles further north than my current location. But it's taken away that fear of being homeless. I'm sure there will be days where I won't cope with things...but I'll just have to manage, and give myself that pat on the back for every small hurdle I manage to overcome.

I know the experience you're describing - I'm sure many men like us have been in this situation and settled down to a new or different life. Just letting you know that you're far from alone here.

 

[malc-c]

I know the experience you're describing - I'm sure many men like us have been in this situation and settled down to a new or different life. Just letting you know that you're far from alone here.

Many thanks for your kind words. I'll be honest, when the **** hit the fan and it all came out I felt my world had collapsed, and I did find myself at that platform in the small hours once more... But I didn't step off the edge, and now, having managed to take on the role of chief cook and bottle washer (to coin an old phrase) for the past two years I'm coming round to the idea of starting a new (and possibly exciting) chapter in my soon to be single life.