Integrating the east coast

[43106]

In a similar style to that already done here, my more detailed proposals are…
1] KX – YK – DLT – NC – AM – BOT – DB – ED – HM – IVK – KKC – LCH – DD – AB – MT – SH – AD. Every 2 Hrs, but 1/3 stop at Morpeth.
2] KX – PB - YK – NC – AM – BOT – DB – ED. Every 2 Hrs, but 1/3 stop at Morpeth. 1 train a day to Inverness. Alternates with 1] to form a 1tph clockface service.
3] KX - PB – DC – YK – NA – DLT – DH – NC – ED – HM – MW – GG. Every 2 Hrs, and I MIGHT stop 1/3 of these at Carstairs.
4] KX – PB – DC – YK – DLT – DH – NC – BOT – ED. Every 2 Hrs, alternating with 3] to form a 1tph clockface service. ALSO, 1] & 2] alternate with 3] & 4] to form a 2tph clockface service.
5] KX – GT – NW – DC – WF – LDS. Every 2 Hrs.
6] KX – PB – GT – DC – WF – LDS. Every 2 Hrs, alternating with 5] to form a 1tph clockface service.
7] KX – STV – PB – GT – NW – RF – DC – WF – LDS. Every 2 Hrs.
8] KX – STV – PB – GT – NW – RF – DC – SB – HD – BGH – HL. Every 2hrs, alternating with 7] between KX & DC. ALSO 5] & 6] alternate with 7] & 8] to form a 2tph clockface service.
9] KX – STV – PB – NW – LC – MR – HB – BNB – GBY – CT. Every 6 hrs.
10] KX – STV – GT – RF – DC – YK – NA – MB – SoT – HLP – SL – NC. Every 6 hrs.

Note that I have severely curtailed the XC service between ED and NC (effectively transferring most of them to the ECML). The only proposed XC service is NC – ED every 6 Hrs.

I don’t think this will work, as I reckon a slow Leeds/Hull service will get hit in the rear by a fast Scotland service (according to a graphical technique I’ve invented). To get round this, I may have to transfer GT and/or NW stops on services 5] & 6] onto services 1] and/or 2]. I don’t like it, but I doubt if I have any other choice.

I’d like to be more detailed, but I need accurate timing data, and that I can only get from the WTT. Can anyone help?

I use my own abbreviations for stations – someone did put up a URL showing the OFFICIAL abbreviations. However, my abbrevs should be easily understandable.

 

[BOSCH]

There is no way you can do a reversal at Middlesbourgh its bad enough the performance TPE have just to go into a siding adding Grand Central in there just makes the situation worse. Be a lot easier and logical to have the Grand Central go through to Saltburn than turnback and the bourgh.

Grand Central is a joke, you should see the performance they have a Heaton on a regular basis, coupling / uncoupling just to find a set where everything works. The ones that don't work just lying around Heaton looking rather lost usually lying 1 coach one end the depot another couch somewhere completly differant. Madness. NXEA should take the Sunderland and my proposed Saltburn service.

IMO THIS post is a joke,GC to saltburn !!! get real man,as for the sets you are obviously not aware that rake 3 entered service the other evening !!! Also nice to see heaton provide a couch,it'll be somewhere nice for the fitters to sit when on lunch break.Oh,and why would NXEA wish to operate this far north ?? All I can say is thank christ your not a real timetable planner :roll::roll:

 

[Waverley125]

9] KX – STV – PB – NW – LC – MR – HB – BNB – GBY – CT. Every 6 hrs.

where does this go?

I'm guessing Lincoln, Market Rasen, Habrough, Barntetby, Grimsby, Cleethorpes?


don't see the need personally. Additionally, Sunderland will want to retain its present service.

 

[43106]

9] KX – STV – PB – NW – LC – MR – HB – BNB – GBY – CT. Every 6 hrs.

Where does this go?

I'm guessing Lincoln, Market Rasen, Habrough, Barntetby, Grimsby, Cleethorpes?.

CORRECT!

Don't see the need, personally.

I'm just bringing back a service long since withdrawn.

Additionally, Sunderland will want to retain its present service.

It does. All I've done is spread it over more of the day.

 

[tbtc]

Yep. IF there's a 2tph service to London, there would still be a requirement for an additional train between Edinburgh and Newcastle every 6 hours to MAINTAIN the present level of service. This would be an XC service.

Ah, so a service from Edinburgh to Leeds/ Sheffield etc every six hours?

You've unintentionally contradicted yourself! I couldn't agree more, re co-ordinating everything, but if the services are to be "...co-ordinated centrally..." then competition is inherently done away with. I don't want competition - it's wasteful and expensive. Bring back BR!

Yes, that's my point. We either have a well organised rail network (my preference), or we have wasteful competition and ORCATS raiding open access operators.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

BR could have been kept in the Passenger form, with Open Access competition encouraged to give the passengers a choice.

 

[Waverley125]

sunderland has a lot more than 1 train per 6 hours, has 1 every 2 hours IIRC.

 

[Darandio]

sunderland has a lot more than 1 train per 6 hours, has 1 every 2 hours IIRC.

More than that, even by Northern Rail. Oviously there is a more frequent service provided by the Metro, normally this wouldn't apply but they run from the same station. If I remember, Northern Rail is hourly each way.

 

[43106]

Sunderland has a lot more than 1 train per 6 hours, has 1 every 2 hours IIRC.

According to my calculations, if you consider the entire GCR operation, there's an average time between trains of about 290 minutes, which is nearly 5 hours. This hasn't changed much since the GCR operation started. Alternatively, there are 3 trains per day in each direction. All I've done is spread those 3 trains across the 'working day' (18 hours, from 0600 to 2400 or 0000).

 

[Darandio]

According to my calculations, if you consider the entire GCR operation, there's an average time between trains of about 290 minutes, which is nearly 5 hours. This hasn't changed much since the GCR operation started. Alternatively, there are 3 trains per day in each direction. All I've done is spread those 3 trains across the 'working day' (18 hours, from 0600 to 2400 or 0000).

So are we talking trains to the capital here then? Or trains served at Sunderland in general?

 

[Waverley125]

yes but there's no market for an 0600, 1200 and 1800 I'd reckon. When I look at my timetable I tend to work it as a 6-6 sort of thing, with reduced services after that, but increases on weekends (to cope with football traffic). On that subject changing at donny a few weeks back was fun. Leeds, Milwall, Villa, Doncaster, Hull, Newcastle & Peterborough fans all on the same platform.

 

[tbtc]

If (*if*) the proposed co-ordinated hourly path for HT/GC happens (meaning an hourly service from KX to Doncaster, with trains extending to Hull OR Sunderland), then how's about diverting the hourly Birmingham - Doncaster - Newcastle to Sunderland/ Hull, meaning an hourly combined Doncaster - York - Yarm - Sunderland service and an hourly combined Doncaster - Selby - Hull service (a half hourly service from Doncaster to Hull, when combined with the hourly Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull service)?

There's already a frequent service from York to Newcastle (all of which have a Cross Country service to Birmingham etc via Leeds too); I think an hourly (combined) Intercity service from Sunderland/ Hull to Doncaster would give these areas a much improved connection to the rest of the network.

The Voyagers should be able to run at the same timings as the HT/ GC 180s, with the same turnaround times, this may even save a unit (need to check the proposed GC timings though).

 

[D841]

As for Sheffield and Nottingham, EMT do a decent job and provide lots of seats (although a better allocation of resources could easily see more seats!). Competition is not needed, and not good use of resources in my opinion.

EMT may do a decent job, but plenty of South Yorkshire businessmen drive to Doncaster and use NXEC in preference (or at least they did when GNER ran the service).

The last direct service between Sheffield and Kings Cross ran via Retford, not Doncaster. An HST on this route would be considerably faster than a Meridian via the MML, even one using the Erewash Valley route.

 

[Waverley125]

i'd agree. It's what, 2 hr 20 to Sheffield on a limited stop MML service? Pboro-Donny is under an hour, Donny to Sheffield fast maybe 10-15 mins max? I reckon you could squeeze a train in in under 2 hrs, calling Doncaster & Peterborough only. The difficult would be the need to reverse in platform 5 at Doncaster

 

[tbtc]

i'd agree. It's what, 2 hr 20 to Sheffield on a limited stop MML service? Pboro-Donny is under an hour, Donny to Sheffield fast maybe 10-15 mins max? I reckon you could squeeze a train in in under 2 hrs, calling Doncaster & Peterborough only. The difficult would be the need to reverse in platform 5 at Doncaster

IF there was a KX - Sheffield service then it'd run via Retford and Worksop - much faster. Good luck getting Doncaster - Sheffield in 10 minutes - it's longer than than getting from Meadowhall to Sheffield some days, especially when waiting on a platform.

Virgin proposed KX - Retford - Sheffield, but then Virgin propose a lot of things (e.g. Shrewsbury - Walsall - London, or Blackpool - Birmingham - Cheltenham - Swindon - Paddington)...

 

[Waverley125]

ok, a full & proper plan for all services running on the EC:

London Overground

3tph Stevenage via Hertford North
3tph Stevenage

(both continuing to east croydon via Widened lines)

FCC

1tph Lincoln (Stevenage, Hitchin, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford)

1tph Peterborough (Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Stevenage, Hitchin, Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterborough)

1tph Huntingdon (Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin, Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots, Huntingdon)

2tph Kings Lynn (Stevenage, Letchworth, Royston, Cambridge, Waterbeach, Ely, Downham Market)

2tph Cambridge (Finsbury Park, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North, Stevenage & all stations)

NXEC

1tph Aberdeen/Glasgow Central (York, Newcatle Central, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee)/(Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Motherwell)

1tph Leeds (Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark NG, Retford, Wakefield Westgate)

1tph Harrogate/Skipton (Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds, Horsforth)/(Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds, Shipley, Keighley)

1tph Bradford Forster Square (Doncaster, Leeds, Shipley)

1tph Newcastle Central (Peterborough, Grantham, Newark NG, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)

1tph Hull/Sunderland (Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark NG, Retford, Doncaster, Selby, Brough)/(Peterborough, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Hartlepool)

EMT

1tph Peterborough-Grantham

AXC

2tph Wakefield-Leeds-York-Northallerton-Darlington-Durham-Newcastle-Morpeth-Alnmouth-Berwick-Edinburgh-Haymarket-Inverkeithing-Kirkcaldy-Leuchars-Dundee-Arbroath-Montrose-Stonehaven

(between Wakefield & any other station)

TPE

1tph Leeds-York (none)
1tph Leeds-Newcastle (York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street)
1tph Leeds-Middlesbrough (York, Thirsk, Northallerton)

ScotRail

1tph Edinburgh-Newcastle (Cramlington, Morpeth, Pegswood, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Drem, Prestonpans, Mussleburgh)

Northern

1tp2h Newcaste-Berwick (all stations)

so everyone's happy.

 

[MCR247]

So you've ditched fTPEs Scarborough - Liverpool?! How will the London Overground trains continue to E. Croydon? I dont think ScotRail should run Newcastle - Edinburgh, could that not be fTPE by extending newcastle services , and then maybe ditching the WCML to Edinburgh and sending them to Glasgow?

 

[stut]

You've also greatly increased timings on Cambridge runs, decreased the Hitchin-Huntingdon stations to an hourly service (that's slower than the current one - at a time when there are efforts going on to expand it to 12-car and increase it to 4-an-hour), and ditched all fast services from Peterborough, doing the whole of East Anglia out of access to Scotland, or quick access up North.

 

[Aictos]

I see the local residents at Knebworth have lost their train services :roll:

Much rather have NXEC lose Stevenage and have their services call at Peterborough as the first station from Kings Cross as Stevenage is mainly a commuter station which is run by FCC.

With a new bay platform on the down side for the FCC services via Hertford North to use which is possible as the down slow is bi directional from the station to Langley Junction.

So increasing the current hourly service between Hertford North and Stevenage via Watton At Stone to a 30 minute service in both directions or if possible a 20 minute frequency.

The services that used to terminate at Letchworth will be replaced by though Cambridge services.

Not to mention of course the reinstallation of 4 platforms at Letchworth as that station was designed to have 4 platforms.

The remodelling of both Cuffley, Gordon Hill and Hertford North on the Hertford Loop:

Cuffley to receive two goods loops either end of the station on both the up and the down lines which is long enough to hopefully take a average freight or with some luck a HOBC!

Gordon Hill to lose it's bay platforms to convert them to though platforms both of which would be bi directional so could either platform could be used to turn back services.

The bridge at the north end of Hertford North to be replaced with a new bridge which would mean all platforms being extended to take 8 cars.

The up yard at Hertford North would also be converted to be accessed from the south end as it once was as well as the current north end with all sidings lengthen to take 12 car 365s as they are the longest carriages that we have on the GN if I am right?

With the crossovers similar to Royston being installed as well which would improve timings as a train could pass another train by using the other platform even if both are heading in the same direction.

All 313s from LOROL to be cascaded to FCC after a refurbishment to bring them back to FCC's higher standard! or replace the 313s altogether with 378s but with seating arranged like the 313s currently have and a lower roof like the 313s have. Say 378/2s....

 

[jon0844]

FCC and TfL (who will be part funding such a move) want a 15-minute service frequency throughout the day using 313s from WGC and Hertford. This means that when you reach Ally Pally, the service frequency will be twice that; a real 'turn up and go' service.

How other services will fit around these, I do not know, as they'll clearly be using up most of the capacity on the slow lines. I'd hope that most stations continue to get 1 or 2 tph on fast, or semi-fast, services which will have to make more use of the fast lines - and then fit in with the other operators.

 

[djw1981]

Some more loops at stations?

 

[stut]

FCC and TfL (who will be part funding such a move) want a 15-minute service frequency throughout the day using 313s from WGC and Hertford. This means that when you reach Ally Pally, the service frequency will be twice that; a real 'turn up and go' service.

How other services will fit around these, I do not know, as they'll clearly be using up most of the capacity on the slow lines. I'd hope that most stations continue to get 1 or 2 tph on fast, or semi-fast, services which will have to make more use of the fast lines - and then fit in with the other operators.

Don't they already use the fast tracks a fair bit, though? CBG/ELY/KLN fasts all the way to HIT, PBO fasts and CBG semi-fasts all the way to Digswell (all the way to HUN for the peak-hour expresses). Plus, wasn't the idea to have 4tph for both PBO and CBG FCC services once the Thameslink Programme was completed?

(Having said that, wasn't there also a plan to move some of the PBO semi-fasts down the Hertford Loop off-peak? Not sure how this would work for timing, though - wouldn't be happy if BIW-KGX took any more than 45 minutes...)

 

[Aictos]

FCC Semi Fasts could go via Hertford North in the off peak but only if they were 4 cars, 8 cars would be possible but would mean SDO operation which is possible on some of the 365s.

Just means that if a 8 car does travel that route, passengers wanting any of the stations must be told to travel in the front 4 coaches only.

 

[stut]

Not sure they were planning on stopping there (well, maybe HFN itself) or just using the route to relieve congestion at Digswell. A long time since I read that suggestion, anyway.

 

[Aictos]

Not sure they were planning on stopping there (well, maybe HFN itself) or just using the route to relieve congestion at Digswell. A long time since I read that suggestion, anyway.

If any service would go via Hertford North then it's normally non stop over the line but there are two services a day which call at Hertford North, Cuffley, Gordon Hill and I think Enfield Chase only.

Much rather have the two only stop at Hertford and Gordon Hill,

 

[Darandio]

I guess we are still reversing at Middlesbrough then. :roll:

 

[Waverley125]

the plan is to ditch TPE's Scarborough-Liverpool with electrification anyway, terminating it at york and running the present Blackpool-York through to Scarborough.

FSR are running Edinburgh-Newcastle as it's an extension of their desired to serve Dunbar.

East Anglia hasn't lost their connection to the north & Scotland, both XC and EMT services connect at peterborough. However, as XC stays west of the main running lines between Peterborough station & Helpston, i didn't consider it to be running 'on' the ECML, rather next to it.

Knebworth has 3tph north to Stevenage and South to East Croydon, which travel the present FCC route via London Bridge. It's also now got an hourly semi fast to Huntingdon & LKX.

Cambridge has 2tph calling only at Stevenage, Hitchin & Letchworth-pretty darn good imo.

Peterborough was decrease as I'm unsure whether you could get more than 8tph through the double track section over Holme fen. However, I will bend to putting in an hourly semi-fast to Huntingdon.

And yes, Sunderland services will still reverse at Middlesbrough.

 

[djw1981]

But with bi-di on the Ediinburgh-Berwick section, you could run Edinburgh-Beriwck with SR and Newcastle - Berwick with Northern. They could arrive at same time, allowing for cross platform transfer if required, then depart in the direction they came in, or do an FCC/Southern job and have shared stock and just change crew (Northern and SR already do this at carlisle on Glasgow - Newcastle services).

The Sr desire is not to serve Dunbar, but Repton/East Linton area (in the gap between Dunbar and Berwick). Capacity is an issue (high speed vs stoppers vs freight vs long signal sections vs few crossovers. Rolling stock would be aninteresting one. we may soon have EMU;s spare in Scotland as the 314's are staying around.

 

[stut]

XC and EMT do connect at PBO, but you've done them out of all fast trains headed North, with none going on to Scotland. The airlines at Stansted will be very grateful for this move.

CBG with 2tph SVG/HIT/LET? Are you mad? With 12-car non-stops together with the semi-fasts, they're already overcrowded.

You've taken ARL/BIW/SDY/SNO way down, too. Don't think these £4k/year commuters will be thanking you for that, now that their 40-50 minute commutes have gone up over 15 minutes and are hopelessly crowded at the Southern end. You really think you're going to get more passengers from Spalding than from commuterland?

Realistically, for FCC, the minimum needs to be what is in place at present. The Thameslink programme aims to double the frequency for the outer routes as well, with all stations capable of handling 12 cars. Don't underestimate the volumes on these routes, or how they are growing.

 

[Waverley125]

umm, there are a load of trains to the north & scotland under there under both NXEC and XC

there's also the EMT Norwich-Liverpool service represented, but i only show it where it uses the ECML i.e. Peterborough-Grantham. There are no current direct services from east anglia i.e. Norwich, Cambridge, to the northeast and Scotland, it is necessary to change once.

4tph is plenty for cambridge, especially is these are 12 coach trains. I'm also not including trains to Liverpool Street via the WAML, of which I imagine there'll be at least 2tph, which will also be 12 car. Does cambridge need 8 12 car trains to london ber hour? no.

As for Edinburgh-Berwick, i don't see the point in running two trains when one will do. As for crew changings, it could be done, as Berwick will be roundabout the changeover point. I do, however, think there's a market for a more regular service bewteen The North Sea Coast intermediate stations, and that it's more efficient to serve this with a through service, rather than an express.