Interesting gateline interaction

[Jamiescott1]

Due to GWR cancellations I had to take the EL from Paddington to maidenhead
Try to enter the lowerlevel platforms at 1852 to catch the 1900 train to maidenhead with my non folding bike

Gateline staff tell me to fold my bike
I say I cant
They tell me I can't go through the gateline with my bike until 1900.
I say bikes are allowed on trains departing after 1900.
They say yes but they can't let me on the platform until 1900.
I ask how i am meant to catch the 1900 train if you won't let me through until 1900.
They said "you can't go through until 1900"

 

[Gloster]

The regulations say that you are allowed to take non-folding bikes after 19.00, so that means (to my mind) not on the 19.00 departure. The staff are, in my opinion, correct, if being a bit sticky.

 

[Watershed]

Due to GWR cancellations I had to take the EL from Paddington to maidenhead
Try to enter the lowerlevel platforms at 1852 to catch the 1900 train to maidenhead with my non folding bike

Gateline staff tell me to fold my bike
I say I cant
They tell me I can't go through the gateline with my bike until 1900.
I say bikes are allowed on trains departing after 1900.
They say yes but they can't let me on the platform until 1900.
I ask how i am meant to catch the 1900 train if you won't let me through until 1900.
They said "you can't go through until 1900"

I could slightly understand if they said you couldn't go through until the last westbound train before 19:00 had left - which today would have been the 18:55, which left 2 minutes late at 18:57.

Though hardly customer friendly, allowing you through at 18:57 would give you just enough time to make it to the platform in time for the 19:00. But to make up policy and claim you can't pass through the barriers until 19:00 is just not on.

If you've been further delayed as a result of the gateline staff member's actions, I'd send in a complaint to TfL. You could do so regardless to obtain formal confirmation of the policy, that you could show to gateline staff in future.

The regulations say that you are allowed to take non-folding bikes after 19.00, so that means (to my mind) not on the 19.00 departure. The staff are, in my opinion, correct, if being a bit sticky.

"After" in terms of time restrictions on the railway almost always means "and including". For example consider the usual refrain of "after 09:30" - it doesn't mean "09:31 and later".

 

[Jamiescott1]

They agreed I can take it on the 1900 departure but they couldn't let me on the platform until 1900.
The train departed at 1900.35 seconds so was 35 seconds after 1900

I waited until the previous Reading train had departed before attempting to go through the gateline so they were sure I couldn't take that.

 

[Llanigraham]

According to the Rules they were correct:

Cycles on public transport

Find out where and when you can take different types of cycles or bikes on our transport and National Rail services.

tfl.gov.uk

Elizabeth line​

Non-folded cycles are allowed Monday to Friday on trains:

• Arriving at Liverpool Street (from the direction of Shenfield) before 07:30 and after 09:30
• Leaving Liverpool Street (towards Shenfield) before 16:00 and after 19:00
• Arriving at Paddington (from the west) before 07:30 and after 09:30
• Leaving Paddington (towards the west) before 16:00 and after 19:00
• Between Paddington and Abbey Wood before 07:30, 09:30-16:00 and after 19:00

Weekends and bank holidays: Anytime

You cannot change to the Tube with non-folded cycles at some Elizabeth line stations:

• Tottenham Court Road for the Central or Northern lines
• Bond Street for the Jubilee line
• Paddington for the Bakerloo line
• Liverpool Street for the Central and Northern lines
• Stratford for the Central line
  
  

 

[Jamiescott1]

According to the Rules they were correct

• Leaving Paddington (towards the west) before 16:00 and after 19:00

My train did leave after 1900. It left 1900.35 so a full 35 seconds after 1900

Plus as explained above, the gateline staff said I can take the 1900 train, that was not the issue. The issue was no platform access before 1900

 

[Llanigraham]

I think the confusion is of what 1900 means.
According to the way railway times work your train left at 1900. The seconds are immaterial. It would have to be 1901 to be afterwards.
I think your only option is taking it up with TfL and get them to clarify exactly what they mean.

 

[rg177]

I've been on gatelines where a similar policy used to apply. Common sense would apply - if it's a couple of minutes beforehand, it's not worth kicking off about - in any case, the point behind the rule is to keep bikes off busy trains. There's a difference between turning a blind eye to a bike at 17:30 and one at 18:59.

As said above - it's worth clarifying how this policy should be enforced - is it supposed to be the train departure time (as it seems to be worded) or the time that you enter TfL premises?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think the confusion is of what 1900 means.
According to the way railway times work your train left at 1900. The seconds are immaterial. It would have to be 1901 to be afterwards.
I think your only option is taking it up with TfL and get them to clarify exactly what they mean.

Again, that is not the issue. They were more than happy for the OP to catch that train.
What they were not happy about was letting them onto the platform to catch it!

 

[Titfield]

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools. Brickhill 1954

 

[jumble]

The regulations say that you are allowed to take non-folding bikes after 19.00, so that means (to my mind) not on the 19.00 departure. The staff are, in my opinion, correct, if being a bit sticky.

On the other hand see how TFL are not themselves very clear when defining peak and off peak as 09.30 is stated as applying to both depending in where you look and I would argue that the cycle rules should be interpreted the same way
It is common knowledge that the barriers change around 09.28 which is really sensible as it stops the helpdesk being overrun with petty complaints
I suppose it never occurs to the member of station staff that the clock he is looking at may not be correct to the nearest minute

( The buses will also allow a tap in with an 0ver 60 at 08.58)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/flexible-travel-and-fares.pdf

Off-peak fares apply to our rail services between 09:30 and
16:00 and after 19:00 on weekdays, and during weekends and
bank holidays.

Tube and rail fares

Fares set by TfL for the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services

tfl.gov.uk

• Peak fares - Monday to Friday (not on public holidays) between 06:30 and 09:30, and between 16:00 and 19:00

 

[Gloster]

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools. Brickhill 1954

It is much older than that as my father often quoted it as something he had been taught in his youth. Although I always pointed out that obedience to the rules does mean that you know what others are doing in a certain situation and they know what you are doing. Thus you all avoid getting at cross purposes, which would not be a good idea for railway signalmen.

I think that the quote comes from the biography of Douglas Bader. My feeling is that he, although he had many fine qualities, did tend to feel that he could do whatever he wanted without reference to others, something that can be an utter nuisance if you are on the other end.

 

[reb0118]

I think that the quote comes from the biography of Douglas Bader.

In fairness he didn't really have a leg to stand on.

 

[Titfield]

It is much older than that as my father often quoted it as something he had been taught in his youth. Although I always pointed out that obedience to the rules does mean that you know what others are doing in a certain situation and they know what you are doing. Thus you all avoid getting at cross purposes, which would not be a good idea for railway signalmen.

I think that the quote comes from the biography of Douglas Bader. My feeling is that he, although he had many fine qualities, did tend to feel that he could do whatever he wanted without reference to others, something that can be an utter nuisance if you are on the other end.

Yes I thought the quote was older than that but couldnt find an earlier reference quickly.

Havent given this a lot of thought but there are two types of rule: safety rules and all other rules. Disregarding a safety rule is foolhardy to say the least.

Going back to Douglas Bader, people who have that mindset can cause an awful lot of trouble for others who may quite rightly feel aggrieved when "steamrollered" especially in the services where obeying orders and laid down procedures is drummed into recruits from day 1.

 

[exbrel]

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools. Brickhill 1954

exactly, but unfortunately the later is more prevalent in our modern world...

 

[H&I]

I think the confusion is of what 1900 means.
According to the way railway times work your train left at 1900. The seconds are immaterial. It would have to be 1901 to be afterwards.
I think your only option is taking it up with TfL and get them to clarify exactly what they mean.

Wouldn’t 35 seconds after 19:00 be rounded to 19:01 rather than to 19:00 instead?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Wouldn’t 35 seconds after 19:00 be rounded to 19:01 rather than to 19:00 instead?

No. 19:00 runs from 19:00:00 (hh:mms) to 19:00:59 (and the 59th second up to immediately before the start of the 00th second of 19:01).

While I'm not quite sure that I have got the seconds right at the end of the minute (someone will no doubt be along to give chapter and verse of the right answer) I am pretty sure that minutes round to starting at hh:mm:00, and not that they start at hh:mm-1:30 to end at hh:mm:29.

<Edit>sigh. Phone is being less than helpful. Please ignore emoji: hh:mms should be < hh : mm : ss > only without the spaces.

 

[robbeech]

Inconsistency rife as always then. The Railway!

A train departing at, for example 1907 and 37 seconds will register in various bits of public facing running data as 1908, yet when it suits even 59 seconds rounds down.

They agreed I can take it on the 1900 departure but they couldn't let me on the platform until 1900.
The train departed at 1900.35 seconds so was 35 seconds after 1900

I wonder if they’d allow you on to the platform at 1557 to get the 1600 train but not let you get the 1600 train. (I haven’t bothered to look whether there is a 1600 I’m just illustrating)

 

[Deafdoggie]

Inconsistency rife as always then. The Railway!

A train departing at, for example 1907 and 37 seconds will register in various bits of public facing running data as 1908, yet when it suits even 59 seconds rounds down.

It is 19:07:59 becomes 19:07 if it means they don't have to pay delay repay.

 

[robbeech]

It is 19:07:59 becomes 19:07 if it means they don't have to pay delay repay.

This fulfils the “when it suits” argument then.

 

[takno]

Inconsistency rife as always then. The Railway!

A train departing at, for example 1907 and 37 seconds will register in various bits of public facing running data as 1908, yet when it suits even 59 seconds rounds down.




I wonder if they’d allow you on to the platform at 1557 to get the 1600 train but not let you get the 1600 train. (I haven’t bothered to look whether there is a 1600 I’m just illustrating)

This is consistent with the way clocks work and everybody handles time. There's literally nothing exceptional about the way the railway is handling this.

 

[robbeech]

This is consistent with the way clocks work and everybody handles time. There's literally nothing exceptional about the way the railway is handling this.

What is, having 2 different ways of measuring?
Can they not stick to 1?

It’s either 1539 until it’s 1540 and 0 seconds or it’s 1539 until it’s 1539 and 30 seconds at which point it becomes 1540. Why does the railway feel the need to have both of these standards on the go at the same time?

 

[takno]

What is, having 2 different ways of measuring?
Can they not stick to 1?

It’s either 1539 until it’s 1540 and 0 seconds or it’s 1539 until it’s 1539 and 30 seconds at which point it becomes 1540. Why does the railway feel the need to have both of these standards on the go at the same time?

The railway doesn't. It's 1539 until it's 1540. For working timetable and live movement information it's recorded to the half minute, but that is just the same - it's 1539 until it's 1539 and 30 seconds, then it's 1539 1/2 until it's 1540 and 0 seconds, and then it's 1540. Nobody rounds time up, it's just not a thing.

 

[MrJeeves]

live movement information it's recorded to the half minute

And sometimes quarter-minute (well, if you do it manually and look at TD berth movements)

 

[The exile]

According to the Rules they were correct:

Cycles on public transport

Find out where and when you can take different types of cycles or bikes on our transport and National Rail services.

tfl.gov.uk

Elizabeth line​

Non-folded cycles are allowed Monday to Friday on trains:

• Arriving at Liverpool Street (from the direction of Shenfield) before 07:30 and after 09:30
• Leaving Liverpool Street (towards Shenfield) before 16:00 and after 19:00
• Arriving at Paddington (from the west) before 07:30 and after 09:30
• Leaving Paddington (towards the west) before 16:00 and after 19:00
• Between Paddington and Abbey Wood before 07:30, 09:30-16:00 and after 19:00

Weekends and bank holidays: Anytime

You cannot change to the Tube with non-folded cycles at some Elizabeth line stations:

• Tottenham Court Road for the Central or Northern lines
• Bond Street for the Jubilee line
• Paddington for the Bakerloo line
• Liverpool Street for the Central and Northern lines
• Stratford for the Central line
  

As they were denying access to the platform (which does not appear to be time restricted) and not to a train, I would argue they were not.

 

[exbrel]

in the services leave always ended at 2359 on the day before you were due back, don't know if that's still the case...
Also as a aside when i first got married back in the early 70's i used to pay the gas bill in the local gas office, and it always was a few pence over so they rounded up, never down so even back then the mins, and pennies always worked in the companies favour...