International trams

[37201xoIM]

By the way, for Prague do make an effort to go on route no. 23: it's worked by heritage Tatra trams (T3 or even T2), but unlike the other, full heritage/historic route(s?), normal tickets are valid and it's part of core network. Unlike the T3s on other routes, the T3s on this route are un-bent "real" non-refurb ones. And with the right driver, they don't hang about either - hellfire!

 

[AdamWW]

By the way, for Prague do make an effort to go on route no. 23: it's worked by heritage Tatra trams (T3 or even T2), but unlike the other, full heritage/historic route(s?), normal tickets are valid and it's part of core network. Unlike the T3s on other routes, the T3s on this route are un-bent "real" non-refurb ones. And with the right driver, they don't hang about either - hellfire!

It's also interesting because at one end instead of a loop it reverses on a "wye".

But (to my ignorant eyes) the unrefurbished ones didn't look all that much different and were a pleasure to travel on. Even the ones with a low floor section are hugely different from the modern multi-segmented vehicles that most tram systems have these days.

(Prague is also unusual in that it has low floor articulated trams with swivelling bogies).

 

[Adlington]

Prague is also unusual in that it has low floor articulated trams with swivelling bogies

Hyundai trams in Warsaw are also low floor articulated with swivelling bogies

 

[AdamWW]

Hyundai trams in Warsaw are also low floor articulated with swivelling bogies

They're certainly not unique to Prague. But not at all common either.

 

[37201xoIM]

But (to my ignorant eyes) the unrefurbished ones didn't look all that much different and were a pleasure to travel on. Even the ones with a low floor section are hugely different from the modern multi-segmented vehicles that most tram systems have these days.

I guess it depends how much of a Tatra anorak you are...

But I think the T3s in service on other routes have modernised electrical equipment, so don't sound as good as 'unbent' ones...

Happy to be corrected, of course!

 

[AdamWW]

I guess it depends how much of a Tatra anorak you are...

But I think the T3s in service on other routes have modernised electrical equipment, so don't sound as good as 'unbent' ones...

Happy to be corrected, of course!

I won't argue. It's just that beforehand I was expecting the modernised ones to be much more different. Most of them are even still in the "correct" livery for a Tatra tram.

 

[dutchflyer]

Another special thing, as I just am there again for a short stay: SOFIA has both meter (main old network, much reduced due to metro lines) and normal gauge (a line built before the metro came) and these also cross one another. And still quite a varied fleet, incl also still 2nd hand green ones from Basel, red+white typical Czech style Tatra, newer polish Swing from PESA and also still a few very boxy (if not ugly) local builds from real socialist times. And EU-subsidized electric buses from mainland CHina, HIger with what looks like a pantograph on the roof-for that tram-feeling. But they have a uniqe Lon/Oyster style feature: can pay with cred-cd and there is a daily cap (4BGL, which is even a little less as your current GB-bus fare cap!-for 1 ride).
For those saving the last penny and grown up: Seniors, from 65 in CZ, from 70 for most PL towns enjoy free rides, also you Brits from now out of the EU, just show ID/passpt when inspectors come along. Does NOT apply to all towns with trams, but includes major ones like Praha, Brno, Warszawa, Poznan, Krakow. Here in BUlgaria and also Romania this is mostly very cheap yearly seasons only for those who can show to be registered in that town.

 

[dhedley]

Lots of good advice: thank you all. We have decided to "do" Prague this time, possibly spending a day in Amsterdam en route.

But plenty of info for future trips!

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Amsterdam has a rather large tram network and some good tram routes running through the lovely streets in the city centre (such as the 2 from Centraal Station to Nieuw Sloten). Unfortunately though, only two types exist there: the Siemens Combino and the CAF Urbos 3, the latter of which is exclusively used on routes 5 and 25.

The reason why the 2 is good is because it goes through some narrow streets in the city centres, where the streets are so narrow that the tram track becomes single tracked!

I do recommend Antwerp's tram network too, has about 9-10 lines from memory of which half of them go underground in the city centre, known as the Premetro!

 

[AdamWW]

I do recommend Antwerp's tram network too, has about 9-10 lines from memory of which half of them go underground in the city centre, known as the Premetro!

And so far as I know they still run PCC trams that are a bit of a novelty these days.

Amsterdam has a rather large tram network and some good tram routes running through the lovely streets in the city centre (such as the 2 from Centraal Station to Nieuw Sloten). Unfortunately though, only two types exist there: the Siemens Combino and the CAF Urbos 3, the latter of which is exclusively used on routes 5 and 25.

I think more and more these days the interest in a tram system (at least to me) has to come from the routes themselves, not the trams running on them. These days most modern trams seem much of a muchness to me.

Though the on-board ticket offices in Amsterdam are something quite unusual.

(On a recent trip it looked to me as if the person behind the ticket counter was also operating the doors making them perhaps more like a guard on a train. But I may have been wrong).

 

[DanielB]

(On a recent trip it looked to me as if the person behind the ticket counter was also operating the doors making them perhaps more like a guard on a train. But I may have been wrong).

Those persons are actually having the job title "conducteur", so that would indeed translate to guard in English. They do have a similar function as a guard on trains, being providing service, selling tickets and checking tickets. (That's why trams with a guard have only two entrance doors: next to the drivers cab and next to the guard's desk).
Exception are the bidirectional trams on routes 5 and 25 where the guard uses the rear cab.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Those persons are actually having the job title "conducteur", so that would indeed translate to guard in English. They do have a similar function as a guard on trains, being providing service, selling tickets and checking tickets. (That's why trams with a guard have only two entrance doors: next to the drivers cab and next to the guard's desk).
Exception are the bidirectional trams on routes 5 and 25 where the guard uses the rear cab.

Also is it true that tickets bought from the guard / conductor only accept card payments?

 

[AdamWW]

Those persons are actually having the job title "conducteur", so that would indeed translate to guard in English. They do have a similar function as a guard on trains, being providing service, selling tickets and checking tickets. (That's why trams with a guard have only two entrance doors: next to the drivers cab and next to the guard's desk).
Exception are the bidirectional trams on routes 5 and 25 where the guard uses the rear cab.

If they are just providing customer service and have no safety responsibility, then that is unlike the role of a guard on UK trains.

I didn't realise that the trams without "ticket offices" also carry a guard.

I can't think of many tram sytems I've used that weren't driver only operation.

 

[Ken H]

Gent in Belgium is ok but not worth a special trip. But it isnt far from Brussel by train.

In Brussel its a bit of a white knuckle ride at Daimant as the tram track go through a roundabout at the end of a motorway.

I like the Berlin ones as i am intetested in the differences between the old soviet sector and the old west berlin. A day berlin ticket for trams, metro and s-bahn plus buses is a good deal

 

[Adlington]

I can't think of many tram sytems I've used that weren't driver only operation.

(Some of??) Amsterdam trams had conductors, at least a few years ago.

 

[AdamWW]

(Some of??) Amsterdam trams had conductors, at least a few years ago.

They do. That's what we were talking about.

But I don't think I've come across any trams with conductors/guards/whatever elsewhere outside the UK.

 

[D6130]

But I don't think I've come across any trams with conductors/guards/whatever elsewhere outside the UK.

Until the late 1970s/early 1980s buses and trams in Rome and certain other Italian Cities still had a seated ticket seller at the rear of the vehicle next to the entrance door, while the exit door was at the front next to the driver. I remember seeing them on my first visit to Rome in September 1981, although by that time they were only used on a couple of routes which had not yet received the new longer buses with front and rear entrances and central exits. Those had a simpler mechanical version of the present-day electronic ticket validators and tickets were - as now - purchased at tobacconists before boarding.

 

[Beebman]

They do. That's what we were talking about.

But I don't think I've come across any trams with conductors/guards/whatever elsewhere outside the UK.

The trams in Hiroshima in Japan have conductors, or at least the older ones did when I was there in 2018. They stand at a sort of 'mini-desk' at the centre exit of the car where they check that passengers are tapping their cards as they step off (the driver performs the same task at the front door). The terminal stops at the main railway station also have pavement 'conductors' at peak times who stand by other doors and passengers can tap out on their handheld readers.

 

[alex397]

And so far as I know they still run PCC trams that are a bit of a novelty these days.

They certainly had plenty in service during summer last year. Quite sweltering in high temperatures but certainly worth the trip.

I think more and more these days the interest in a tram system (at least to me) has to come from the routes themselves, not the trams running on them. These days most modern trams seem much of a muchness to me.

While the modern low-floor trams are so much better for most users, with not having to worry about climbing very steep steps to board, they certainly are not as fun as a Tatra or a PCC. Modern trams have no interest for me, not matter how much I try. Thankfully I enjoy the routes too.

I’ve read once that so many Tatras are still in service because they are so easy and cheap to maintain. Not sure how true that is.
Are modern trams more complicated for maintainence?

 

[DanielB]

If they are just providing customer service and have no safety responsibility, then that is unlike the role of a guard on UK trains.

They're a bit like the guards on some regional Dutch railways, which also don't have the safety responsibility.

I didn't realise that the trams without "ticket offices" also carry a guard.

In general they don't. Tram 5 and 25 are the exception.
Rotterdam has guards on the trams as well by the way, but those don't have a desk and walk around the tram inspecting tickets and providing service.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Stockholm and Gothenburg have decent systems that don't get much appreciation, but then Sweden is my favourite country to visit on the continent so I may be biased.

Trondheim in Norway has the world’s northernmost (operating) tram system, with a single line of less than 9km and some very boxy Linke-Hofmann-Busch rolling stock. Oslo has a much larger system as well as a tramway museum in Majorstuen.

If you want to piece together a Nordic adventure, think about joining the dots between Trondheim and/or Oslo in Norway, then Gothenburg and/or Stockholm in Sweden, then a ferry to Finland for Helsinki and Tampere. Stockholm’s network is smaller than you’d expect for such a big city, but Helsinki’s system is very large and fun to explore. Tampere’s is, I think, the newest tram system anywhere in Europe, launched in August 2021.

 

[AdamWW]

While the modern low-floor trams are so much better for most users, with not having to worry about climbing very steep steps to board, they certainly are not as fun as a Tatra or a PCC. Modern trams have no interest for me, not matter how much I try. Thankfully I enjoy the routes too.

Yes clearly modern trams are more useful than old high floor trams, and it's more efficient having a few manufacturers making trams for everyone rather than each country or even city doing its own thing.

But they do seem dull to me and somehow all look the same even when they have different styling.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I find Prague's network to be over-rated and slightly boring but then I do prefer modern cities.

Zürich is probably my favourite tram network in Europe and this comes with a vast network, old and new trams for variety, and a very nice city.

Brussels' most modern trams have leather seats and have to be the classiest trams I've ever travelled on. The old ones are quite quirky too. The middle aged ones are rubbish. Good expansive network and most interesting of all is that some run on Underground Metro-style routes.

Milan's famous yellowy old heritage trams are brilliant, and you can stick your head out of the back window and watch the world go by while the breeze hits your face But the modern trams have a hideous disgusting pea green interior - walls, seats, doors, that hurts the eyes frankly, and the old ones that aren't the aforementioned heritage ones are rattly and in a bad way.

Stockholm and Gothenburg have decent systems that don't get much appreciation, but then Sweden is my favourite country to visit on the continent so I may be biased.

If you don't mind where you go, have you asked your cousin which tramway he might like to see? He might already have a favourite in mind.

I've been on Gothenburg's tram network, certainly a good tram system! Can be fun too in some bits, seeing it goes at rather high speeds.

And I agree, Sweden is a lovely country. Wouldn't say it's my favourite but still a great country nevertheless.

 

[reddragon]

There are so many systems with so many quirks it's so hard to choose.

I did like Leipzig, Amsterdam, Basel, the combined Ludwigshafen + Mannheim + Heidelburg + OEG system. I've never made Vienna, Prague or Melbourne but would like too.

Lisbon is my favourite, combined with such a nice country and low costs. Lots of closed sections to explore too and of course the free museum. The 18,24 & 25 are quiet and you can always get the 28 from the west end and ride all the way. I love sitting watching the trams at Alfama or Sao Tome. The 12 can be a challenge to catch!

 

[The exile]

Berlin has an extensive network including the line 68 which runs through a forest on the outskirts to take sunbathers to the beach in summer. There is also the independently run line to Woltersdorf which still uses it's large collection of heritage stock in daily service.

Catch them while you can! I believe (brand) new stock is on order which will turn “the fleet” into “the heritage fleet” (or razor blades!)

 

[Austriantrain]

Lisbon is my favourite, combined with such a nice country and low costs. Lots of closed sections to explore too and of course the free museum. The 18,24 & 25 are quiet and you can always get the 28 from the west end and ride all the way. I love sitting watching the trams at Alfama or Sao Tome. The 12 can be a challenge to catch!

To me, Lisbon feels like a real-life tramway museum. Apart from line 15, the trams don’t really have a role in public transportation. It’s nice to see and ride it once, but I really prefer a useful tram network (as I do for trains).

 

[JGurney]

Though the on-board ticket offices in Amsterdam are something quite unusual.

Those took me by surprise when I first saw them, having been used to the trams not having them then revisiting after a few years and encountering them. Were they introduced to deal with all the tourists who didn't understand the ticketing system and kept trying to pay cash to the driver as they were accustomed to on buses at home? Or to reduce deliberate fare evasion?

 

[reddragon]

To me, Lisbon feels like a real-life tramway museum. Apart from line 15, the trams don’t really have a role in public transportation. It’s nice to see and ride it once, but I really prefer a useful tram network (as I do for trains).

The trams are used heavily by locals except in the summer peaks where they find another way, so its a 'real' tram system.

The 24 has partially re-opened and its next extension to Cais do Sodre is awaiting funds for s&c where it crosses the 28. The 15 is to be re-opened west from Alges to Estadio , again just awaiting funds to reinstate the missing s&c and the delivery of new trams. They are good at mothballing old lines complete with OLE in place! These are both single digit million to do.

Extensions are planned east to Santa Apolonia & beyond along the old route 9/16 to Poco do Bispo & beyond towards Oriente and potentially along the old routes 17-24-1 to Benfica using modern trams. These are expensive works.

Restoring the 25 beyond Prazeres to Amoreiras, Rato and Carmo is also conceivable as the track and some OLE is still in place.

Elétricos de Lisboa – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre

pt.wikipedia.org

future expansions​

In 2018, during the reopening ceremony of the 24E , the Mayor Fernando Medina confirmed future expansions of the tram network in Lisbon. On the one hand, the 24E will soon be extended to Cais do Sodré. On the other hand, the 15E will be extended, to the west, to Cruz Quebrada, and to the east, to Santa Apolónia and then to Parque das Nações. [ 68 ] It is also planned to create a fast tram line connecting Entrecampos to Alta de Lisboa. [ 69 ] To this end, 30 new trams (10 classic and 20 articulated) will also be purchased. [ 70 ]In 2019, as part of the acquisition of 15 new trams, expansions to Cruz Quebrada, on the one hand, and to Parque das Nações, on the other, were announced, with a possible expansion to Loures also being studied.

 

[Austriantrain]

The trams are used heavily by locals except in the summer peaks where they find another way, so its a 'real' tram system.

Not my impression when I have been there. The last time was in November btw, definitely not summer season. I don’t blame them either - operations are a complete mess and more often than not, when a tram comes along, it’s full to the rafters and no one can board. Nobody in their sane mind would rely on them.

 

[JGurney]

Not my impression when I have been there. The last time was in November btw, definitely not summer season. I don’t blame them either [...] when a tram comes along, it’s full to the rafters and no one can board. Nobody in their sane mind would rely on them.

So are they full of tourists even in November, rather than locals?