Introduction of congestion charging outside London?

[py_megapixel]

In my view, congestion charges for city centres other than London must be introduced as soon as possible, given the current situation (climate, traffic and air quality - not Covid!). This should be in tandem with a gradual barring of the most polluting vehicles, such as very old cars, 4x4s, and eventually all combustion engine vehicles, from the congestion charge area.

The charge should be used by local authorities and/or the PTE to install electric vehicle charging infrastructure, improve and subsidise public transport, install and maintain proper cycle infrastructure (not foot-wide lanes at the side of main carrriageways) and to provide high-quality Park & Ride facilities.

For those have to depend on cars (e.g. those with severe sensory or mobility impairments) exemptions should apply, but anyone who is reasonable capable of using an alternative mode of transport (i.e. walking, cycling, bus, tram or train) should just have to stuff it and either switch modes or pay the charge.

Any thoughts/opinions?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Didn't Greater Manchester have a local referendum on something like this in 2008?

 

[Darandio]

Durham introduced their congestion charge before London!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm less convinced about congestion charges. A levy on all parking (with none being free) would work just as well and be far easier to manage. Nobody within their right mind drives through city centres anyway.

 

[thenorthern]

It's very hard to bring in a congestion charge the first problem is voters will always reject congestion charges in referendums as people don't like more taxes. In simple terms it has to be brought in by a council vote rather than a referendum.

The next problem is the motorist is a very important voting block think about it why has fuel duty been frozen for 10 years? Because the Conservative have found out it's a very good vote winner.

Congestion charges are badly thought out most the time because they exempt electric cars which defeats the object of a congestion charge.

Didn't Greater Manchester have a local referendum on something like this in 2008?

And Edinburgh.

 

[ABB125]

Nobody within their right mind drives through city centres anyway.

That's not always true: some people may do so for the novelty value. For example, I want to drive through Birmingham on the A38 to see what it's like, but I only need to do it once! Afterwards I will just use the normal route from home which avoids the city centre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not always true: some people may do so for the novelty value. For example, I want to drive through Birmingham on the A38 to see what it's like, but I only need to do it once! Afterwards I will just use the normal route from home which avoids the city centre.

OK, people might do it very occasionally, but people doing it for reasons of "driving enthusiasm" aren't going to be in sufficient numbers to cause any considerable level of congestion.

 

[Ianno87]

That's not always true: some people may do so for the novelty value. For example, I want to drive through Birmingham on the A38 to see what it's like, but I only need to do it once! Afterwards I will just use the normal route from home which avoids the city centre.

The A38 (when not congested) is actually a very good through route across the city centre!

 

[ABB125]

OK, people might do it very occasionally, but people doing it for reasons of "driving enthusiasm" aren't going to be in sufficient numbers to cause any considerable level of congestion.

I agree. I would never consider using the A38 regularly as a through route, unless I lived somewhere inwards of Rubery and was heading towards the M1. Long journeys are what the M5 and M42 are for!

The A38 (when not congested) is actually a very good through route across the city centre!

I suppose that's what it was designed for!
There really is a remarkable difference between the road north and south of the city centre: to the south, there are traffic lights every few hundred meters, whereas from a bit north that the A4540 it becomes fully grade-separated until beyond the M6. It's certainly an interesting route in terms of differing road quality, including the 7 lane single-carriageway A38(M)!

 

[Bald Rick]

Birmingham’s ‘Clean Air Zone’ goes live next year, everywhere inside the middle ring road, including the A38 across town. Precise start date and prices yet to be confirmed.

 

[jfollows]

Didn't Greater Manchester have a local referendum on something like this in 2008?

Yes, it did.
Personally, I didn't want to see it, but I felt that it was the right thing to do. I didn't want to see it because most of my travel into Manchester is occasional and in the late peak, for example after 09:30. I recall the proposal was to have been a charge during peak hours, which would have moved more traffic into the times when I tended to drive.

I would personally like a time machine so that I could go back and stop Gordon Brown making diesel engines in cars more attractive to buy than they otherwise would have been, but we are where we are I guess. I would prefer to raise the money by increasing the tax on diesel, for example, but of course this doesn't discriminate between where and when the diesel is burned, which therefore misses part of the point of the congestion charge.

EDIT - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Manchester_congestion_charge) says that the Manchester referendum was in 2008. My recollection of the charge being levied only during specific times appears correct.

Proposed charge
The proposal was part of a bid to the Government's Transport Innovation Fund for a £2.7 billion package of transport funding and the introduction of a road congestion charging system. A key aspect of the proposed Manchester Congestion Charge was the setting up of the system, which will be paid for (£318 million) with part of the £2.7 billion fund from the TIF, £1.151 billion of which would have been in the form of a loan; the revenue from the charging scheme would have been used to repay the loan over a 30-year period.

It was proposed that vehicles entering the area bounded by the M60 motorway would be charged £2.00 in the morning peak, with a further £1.00 for those entering the inner cordon, roughly corresponding to the Manchester Inner Ring Road. In the evening, a further £1.00 would have been charged on exit of each cordon. The figures quoted by AGMA and GMPTE are at 2007 prices. By 2013 AGMA estimated that the cost of crossing both cordons at charging times would be £6

The area covered by the charge would have covered about 80 square miles (210 km2).

The original zone covered by the London Congestion Charge was about eight square miles, Singapore two square miles and Stockholm 18 square miles, but the scheme differed from London in that charges would have been lower and the charging hours much shorter. Inbound charges would have applied between 7:00 am and 9:30 am, outbound ones between 4:00 pm and 6:30 pm. There was to be no charge during the middle of the day, later in the evening, at the weekend or for journeys against the peak flow: leaving the city in the morning or entering it in the evening.

Payment of the charge would be via a pre-pay "tag and beacon" system. Credit was to be automatically deducted from a driver's account as they passed each of the cordons. Occasional visitors to Manchester without a pre-pay tag would be have been able to pay via call centre or internet, but there would have been a surcharge. The scheme was planned to be up and running by mid-2013, by which time it was anticipated that 80% of the public transport improvements would have been completed.

Motorcycles, black taxis and private hire cars would not have had to pay the charge. It was proposed that the Manchester scheme would charge motorcycles at a lower rate than cars, as they do not contribute to congestion to the same extent as cars but this was later dropped.

 

[John Webb]

........The charge should be used by local authorities and/or the PTE to install electric vehicle charging infrastructure, improve and subsidise public transport, install and maintain proper cycle infrastructure (not foot-wide lanes at the side of main carrriageways) and to provide high-quality Park & Ride facilities......

Any thoughts/opinions?

We seem to have a bit of a 'chicken and egg' situation here. You need electric charging points in town/city centres for the cleaner electric vehicles to be encouraged and used - but these facilities need financing. But it seems unfair to introduce charges for most vehicles and possible bans for others until such facilities are in place?

 

[PeterC]

Durham covers too small an area to worry about and, at the moment, London is well known and fairly limited in area. If seemingly random locations around the country are going to start requiring you to make payments for driving in certain areas then the charging system needs to be revamped. Make the registered keeper liable and send a single itemised bill at the end of the month just like a credit card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Durham covers too small an area to worry about and, at the moment, London is well known and fairly limited in area. If seemingly random locations around the country are going to start requiring you to make payments for driving in certain areas then the charging system needs to be revamped. Make the registered keeper liable and send a single itemised bill at the end of the month just like a credit card.

A national system would work best, but I'd rather it was like the Dartford Tunnel where you register your card details and get billed each time you enter a zone. It would form the base of a proper road pricing system that would be needed for electric vehicles anyway, and could incorporate all tolled roads in the UK, including e.g. the M6 Toll and Mersey Tunnels so no need to stop to pay tolls anywhere.

 

[jfollows]

Durham covers too small an area to worry about and, at the moment, London is well known and fairly limited in area. If seemingly random locations around the country are going to start requiring you to make payments for driving in certain areas then the charging system needs to be revamped. Make the registered keeper liable and send a single itemised bill at the end of the month just like a credit card.

You're right, I hadn't thought about it this way before, but it makes sense. Too many of these schemes are happy to abuse technology to save money (no need for toll booths, we'll just do it "electronically") and then charge more if they have to chase you for payment. Many people get caught out by this, I'm sure. Much better would be to do as you say, and mandate that all schemes use a single payment method via a bill to the registered keeper. My partner got caught out by the Widnes toll bridge (once), for example, and he's really not stupid, he just got lost and didn't pay enough attention.

Thank you for the idea, I think it's a good one.

 

[AM9]

We seem to have a bit of a 'chicken and egg' situation here. You need electric charging points in town/city centres for the cleaner electric vehicles to be encouraged and used - but these facilities need financing. But it seems unfair to introduce charges for most vehicles and possible bans for others until such facilities are in place?

I think that problem is being addressed with one or more large European consortiums led by (competing) motor manufacturers, e.g. the IONITY brand has support from VW/Audi, BMW and Mercedes, probably prompted by the realisation that sales of cars is dependent on buyers having access to charging facilities. These are serious chargers as well with up to 300kW capability (provided the vehicle can accept that). I expect this to ramp up in line with the needs of users everywhere urban at least, especially as the EU has pegged the CO2 emission levels of their total vehicle sales to a level that can only be acheived by selling a substantial proportion of them as zero CO2.
As EV sales rise, the demand for hydrocarbon fuel supplies will fall, until eventually those with IC engined vehicles will find far fewer locations to fill up. So there will almost be a cliff-edge in the fall of IC vehicle sales, with a corresponding rise in EVs. That will lead to widespread restrictions on where polluting engines can run, both in cities and then towns/villages.

 

[Domh245]

That's not always true: some people may do so for the novelty value. For example, I want to drive through Birmingham on the A38 to see what it's like, but I only need to do it once! Afterwards I will just use the normal route from home which avoids the city centre.

There's a difference between driving through a city on a relatively well segregated dual carriage vs driving across a city centre using only side streets! FWIW the A38 is pretty unexciting, and full of drivers keen to do more than the signposted 30 through the central section. Even spaghetti junction is pretty dull when you're on it

 

[ABB125]

There's a difference between driving through a city on a relatively well segregated dual carriage vs driving across a city centre using only side streets! FWIW the A38 is pretty unexciting, and full of drivers keen to do more than the signposted 30 through the central section. Even spaghetti junction is pretty dull when you're on it

Given that the central bit is (comparatively) high standard, some drivers are no doubt used to similar roads being at least 40!
I don't think I've ever been through any part of Spaghetti Junction (except for by train!) as I live south of Birmingham on the M5, so it's basically in completely in the wrong place. I do want to at some point though!

 

[biko]

Ideally, there would be a national road pricing scheme. Road pricing is possibly the best way of reducing congestion and making drivers pay for the externalities they cause. That will lead to a better perception of the real costs of driving vs public transport. Another advantage is that it will enable electric cars to pay for their road use. (I am not sure how that currently works in the UK, but here in NL EVs pay a lot less road tax and don’t use fuel so pay really little).

However, the big problem is how to monitor how many miles people travel without a unit in the car. In a university project I recently did, we came to the conclusion congestion charges and charging the use of main roads should be the best compromise. Then you charge usage of roads, and by varying some prices based on location and time congestion can be reduced significantly.

 

[Bald Rick]

as I live south of Birmingham on the M5, so it's basically in completely in the wrong place.

On the basis of relative size, and ease of moving each of the subjects, I’d suggest that it’s you that’s in the wrong place!

There used to be a pub underneath Spaghetti Junction - the Armada. Rough as hell but a cheap pint of Brew XI. And a view from the terrace of all parts of the interchange.

 

[deltic]

Congestion charge zones are easy to implement and enforce but are a bit of a blunt instrument. Edinburgh and Manchester both proposed congestion charges that covered to big an area. No-one has suggested removing London's because it applies to an area where few members of the public drive except those who live there and get a large discount. Similar tightly focused schemes in Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester could also have worked and gradually could have been extended.

Not sure if parking levies are more effective, has Nottingham workplace parking levy reduced the number of parking spaces?

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure if parking levies are more effective, has Nottingham workplace parking levy reduced the number of parking spaces?

Not sure about that, but it has certainly reduced the number of commuters driving into Nottingham. Between 5-10% (research opinion varies on whether it was the stick of the levy itself, or the carrot of the better public transport it funded).

Whilst it might not seem a big change, every little helps.

 

[ABB125]

On the basis of relative size, and ease of moving each of the subjects, I’d suggest that it’s you that’s in the wrong place!

There used to be a pub underneath Spaghetti Junction - the Armada. Rough as hell but a cheap pint of Brew XI. And a view from the terrace of all parts of the interchange.

Perhaps I should clarify: it's in the wrong place for me to use without taking a significant detour! There really is no (sane) journey I can think of from home that would involve Spaghetti Junction!
Although if we're going to move it, might I suggest it could go just south of M5 J9 at Ashchurch, as the starting point for the planned A46 bypass?

 

[Meole]

Is Newcastle still introducing a vehicle charge in 2021 ?

 

[theageofthetra]

I'm less convinced about congestion charges. A levy on all parking (with none being free) would work just as well and be far easier to manage. Nobody within their right mind drives through city centres anyway.

You do if you work shifts and there is no public transport at 2am.

 

[radamfi]

What places inside or outside the UK have cracked the problem of urban congestion? Are they using congestion charges?

 

[Bald Rick]

What places inside or outside the UK have cracked the problem of urban congestion? Are they using congestion charges?

That’s a PhD question!

 

[Trackman]

Funny people mentioning Manchester, I am no longer a member of the Conservative party but I still receive emails.
Here‘s and excerpt from one yesterday to sign a petition against Burham‘s congestion tax.

Across Greater Manchester, businesses are fighting for survival.

Jobs and incomes are at risk. High streets and town centres are facing huge challenges.

Now Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham is planning a crippling new congestion tax that will hit every town, every road, everywhere.

 

[Wolfie]

Funny people mentioning Manchester, I am no longer a member of the Conservative party but I still receive emails.
Here‘s and excerpt from one yesterday to sign a petition against Burham‘s congestion tax.

Sounds about par for the course. HMG (Tory run) tell areas to raise funds locally for public transport enhancements. Then the Tory party opposes them...
See the shenanigans around TfL "bailouts" too. HMG (in writing which subsequently bit them and the Tory Mayorial candidate in the ass) tell the Mayor to raise the congestion charge and increase it's scope and then the Tory party tries to make political capital. Has backfired spectacularly - expect the Tory candidate to get annilihated...

 

[radamfi]

Funny people mentioning Manchester, I am no longer a member of the Conservative party but I still receive emails.
Here‘s and excerpt from one yesterday to sign a petition against Burham‘s congestion tax.

Andy Burnham should be able to sue given the blatant lies.