Is a counted place reservation a seat reservation?

[Adam Williams]

This one is a hypothetical.

NRCoT condition 3.3 states:

3.3 Unless you have made a reservation, please note that your Ticket does not automatically
entitle you to a seat, and at busy times you may have to stand. You will not be entitled to
any refund in these cases unless you hold a first class Ticket and no first class seats were
available on a train service where the timetable indicated that first class seats would be
provided. More information on the refund to which you are entitled in such circumstances
can be found in Condition 31.

Does a counted place reservation suffice for this condition? If so, am I entitled to a seat with my counted place reservation? If I am, and I try to board a service for which my counted place reservation is valid - but I am unable to find a free seat - am I entitled to a refund under condition 30.1 if I decide not to travel? Is it the case that "[my] reservation will not be honoured" under these circumstances?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In short, no. It's a bodge job used to manage Advance quotas.

 

[hexagon789]

This one is a hypothetical.

NRCoT condition 3.3 states:



Does a counted place reservation suffice for this condition? If so, am I entitled to a seat with my counted place reservation? If I am, and I try to board a service for which my counted place reservation is valid - but I am unable to find a free seat - am I entitled to a refund under condition 30.1 if I decide not to travel? Is it the case that "[my] reservation will not be honoured" under these circumstances?

Unfortunately not, it's just a counted place in terms of allocations of advance tickets not an actual guarantee of a seat.

 

[Adam Williams]

I agree that what you're both saying is how it works in practice.

Where does it say that my reservation is actually of no value in the NRCoT though? As far as I'm concerned I have made "a reservation".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that what you're both saying is how it works in practice.

Where does it say that my reservation is actually of no value in the NRCoT though? As far as I'm concerned I have made "a reservation".

You've not reserved a seat - if you had there would be a coach and number on it. You've made a reservation to travel on on a specific train. Arguably it would entitle you to a refund if you were physically unable to board it, but you are anyway if you choose not to travel - that's treated as a cancellation for that sort of purpose (and for the purposes of Delay Repay if you do travel later).

 

[Watershed]

You've not reserved a seat - if you had there would be a coach and number on it. You've made a reservation to travel on on a specific train. Arguably it would entitle you to a refund if you were physically unable to board it, but you are anyway if you choose not to travel - that's treated as a cancellation for that sort of purpose (and for the purposes of Delay Repay if you do travel later).

I agree that this is the practical meaning of the reservation - but as @Adam Williams says, there is nothing in the NRCoT which justifies treating counted place reservations differently to 'normal' reservations for the purposes of conditions 3 and 30/31.

I think a retailer would be on thin ice if they refused to provide a refund in the circumstances described in the OP.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that this is the practical meaning of the reservation - but as @Adam Williams says, there is nothing in the NRCoT which justifies treating counted place reservations differently to 'normal' reservations for the purposes of conditions 3 and 30/31.

I think a retailer would be on thin ice if they refused to provide a refund in the circumstances described in the OP.

Condition 30 says:

You may return an unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom
it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee
charged, if you decide not to travel because the train you intended to use is:
• cancelled, or
• delayed, or
• rescheduled from that in Published Timetable of the Day after you have purchased a
Ticket or Tickets, or
• your reservation will not be honoured

A counted place is only not honoured if you can't physically board, because it "entitles" travel on a given train, not a specific seat. And a refund is due in that case anyway. Nothing whatsoever anywhere says that a counted place entitles a seat; it merely entitles travel on that train.

Condition 31 about downgrading to Standard when no 1st seat is available has nothing to do with reservations.

Condition 3 only refers to refunds per condition 31. No refund is due for simple non-honouring of a seat reservation in Standard.

So no, they wouldn't.

A few TOCs (I think LNER is one) has a higher entitlement which gives some form of compensation if a Standard seat reservation is not honoured and you have to stand as no other seat is available. That is outside of the NRCoT and will depend on that TOC's specific conditions. However while a counted place is a reservation, it is not a seat reservation, because no seat is shown. Perhaps a better term is train reservation - it entitles boarding a specific train when used with an Advance ticket with which it was issued, and serves no purpose at all for the passenger when used with a walk-up ticket, its purpose there either being (a) none, i.e. a mistake that it was issued at all, or (b) to manage the sales of walk-up tickets when the compulsory reservation flag is set.

 

[Adam Williams]

A counted place is only not honoured if you can't physically board, because it "entitles" travel on a given train

Where is this actually written down though? Who says that it only entitles travel on a given train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where is this actually written down though? Who says that it only entitles travel on a given train?

How could you conclude that it entitled a seat when it doesn't show one on it?

 

[Wallsendmag]

You're entitled to the seat shown on your reservation

 

[Adam Williams]

You're entitled to the seat shown on your reservation

My reservation says "sit anywhere" on it.

 

[Haywain]

My reservation says "sit anywhere" on it.

Floor, luggage rack...

 

[A Challenge]

How could you conclude that it entitled a seat when it doesn't show one on it?

When I attempted to book a reservation (only) on the LNER App for Saturday, through the app as I hadn't been given a seat reservation by Trainsplit only a counted place, it gave me a counted place reservation - which seems a bit odd for it to even bother issuing when it isn't with a ticket, but it implies to me it is trying to say that you have a seat reserved (but not any specific one). As it is, I cancelled the reservation and sat in coach C (and then left my phone charger plugged in, but that's me being stupid)

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I attempted to book a reservation (only) on the LNER App for Saturday, through the app as I hadn't been given a seat reservation by Trainsplit only a counted place, it gave me a counted place reservation - which seems a bit odd for it to even bother issuing when it isn't with a ticket, but it implies to me it is trying to say that you have a seat reserved (but not any specific one). As it is, I cancelled the reservation and sat in coach C (and then left my phone charger plugged in, but that's me being stupid)

That sounds like a software issue going back to the COVID days when you did need a reservation to board to control numbers on board. It doesn't help that there's no flag in the industry systems saying "don't sell a ticket without a reservation but you can still get on without so don't waste time issuing meaningless counted places on walk ups or standalone either". "Ticket sale only with reservation" is basically it.

If there are no specific seats, were there such a flag, the app could just decline to issue it and explain why and what to do.

 

[yorkie]

That sounds like a software issue going back to the COVID days when you did need a reservation to board to control numbers on board.

That was very theoretical and not really enforced. A few staff tried to enforce it but soon gave up (I witnessed a revenue person board at Peterborough and give a telling off to some LNER staff who were travelling from York to London for not reserving and sitting in a near empty Coach C!)

 

[Haywain]

That sounds like a software issue going back to the COVID days when you did need a reservation to board to control numbers on board. It doesn't help that there's no flag in the industry systems saying "don't sell a ticket without a reservation but you can still get on without so don't waste time issuing meaningless counted places on walk ups or standalone either". "Ticket sale only with reservation" is basically it.

It's done to allow online ticket sales to exceed the available seats so as to avoid the Avanti nonsense of empty trains showing as sold out. At the present time I do not have a view on the matter, merely presenting the facts.

 

[sheff1]

When I attempted to book a reservation (only) on the LNER App for Saturday, through the app as I hadn't been given a seat reservation by Trainsplit only a counted place, it gave me a counted place reservation -

I have had exactly the same with LNER and also the GWR 'seat reservation only' process, not for pseudo 'reservation compulsory' trains either.
Why not just say there are no more reservations available as Cross Country do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's done to allow online ticket sales to exceed the available seats so as to avoid the Avanti nonsense of empty trains showing as sold out. At the present time I do not have a view on the matter, merely presenting the facts.

I know that, but the system should really have the sense not to issue one at all if someone just requests a reservation, as in thst case it doesn't really serve much of a purpose.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's done to allow online ticket sales to exceed the available seats so as to avoid the Avanti nonsense of empty trains showing as sold out. At the present time I do not have a view on the matter, merely presenting the facts.

Can we ask again in 11 days?

 

[Haywain]

Can we ask again in 11 days?

 

[Adam Williams]

Floor, luggage rack...

I suppose that's one interpretation!

Can we ask again in 11 days?

Escaping into retirement, @Haywain? Or is something reservation-related changing in 10 days? :P

 

[Haywain]

Escaping into retirement, @Haywain?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Escaping into retirement, @Haywain? Or is something reservation-related changing in 10 days? :P

We're both escaping in different directions

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're both escaping in different directions

Oh no, there goes our inside insights into LNER!

Good luck with whatever you're both planning.

 

[infobleep]

Floor, luggage rack...

Nothing wrong with luggage rack seats. I use to semi-regularly sit-in such tuinga on Southern branded services. Obvioisly it is rolling stock class dependent, as some rolling syock doesnt have decent enough kuggage racks to sit in. They missed a trick there.

Can we ask again in 11 days?

As if by magic will @Haywain suddenly have a view then?

As for a lack of a seat. I'd just be happy to be moving and not delayed. If it happened all the time then I'd be more annoyed.

 

[Adam Williams]

Enjoy (I'm definitely not jealous!), am sure you'll be missed at LNER. Have appreciated your thoughts and opinions on various matters!

We're both escaping in different directions

Seen the light and decided to join an independent retailer?

Best of luck regardless with whatever you're doing next, @Wallsendmag

 

[Wallsendmag]

Enjoy (I'm definitely not jealous!), am sure you'll be missed at LNER. Have appreciated your thoughts and opinions on various matters!


Seen the light and decided to join an independent retailer?

Best of luck regardless with whatever you're doing next, @Wallsendmag

Quite the opposite

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite the opposite

Please say it's Avanti and you can sort out the mess that is their TVMs and website!

 

[alistairlees]

Something more central, I believe.