Is a Penzance-Liverpool Off-Peak Return valid via London?

[Laryk]

A few months ago I travelled from Liverpool (LIV) to Penzance (PNZ) via London on a Saturday. It was listed amongst the more straightforward LIV-PNZ via B'ham on an itinerary printed by the ticket office staff.

I am due to make a Journey from PNZ-LIV and back shortly, and have bought a return ticket. The journey via London no longer shows on the itinerary, however I am travelling at different times and on weekdays so assumed it has not shown up as there are quicker options. Nevertheless, I decided to have a look at the routing guide to confirm validity.

Using Plymouth Group-Liverpool Group I am unable to find a combination of maps that allows me to travel via London. I'm excluding any combinations that don't have map "LC", as it is the only one which includes both Euston and Liverpool. This gives me: WE+MW+LC, SW+MW+LC and WR+MW+LC. From this I can't see that PNZ-LIV via London is valid. (The same is true of the return journey)

It is entirely possible, however, that my interpretation of the routing guide is flawed, which is why I am asking more knowledgeable members of the forum than myself


Notes:

• On my previous journey via London my ticket was not checked at all, so I have no idea if it actually was valid. (I also encountered no ticket barriers)
• Ticket is PNZ-LIV stations off-peak return. "Route: Any permitted"

 

[MikeWh]

Members of the London Routeing group can be considered as one point on maps, so anywhere you can combine maps at Paddington/Euston will be fine. However, the route does not include the maltese cross next to Any Permitted, so that might cause problems on the Underground. Others may be able to add more.

 

[Laryk]

Members of the London Routeing group can be considered as one point on maps, so anywhere you can combine maps at Paddington/Euston will be fine.

I'm reasonably happy with that part, however the use of map "MW" is what's giving me concern. According to step 7 of How to use the National routing guide:

"Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing
point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via any route within that map without doubling back."

"ALL MAPS NEED TO BE CONSULTED IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER"

As I understand it, the first intercept point (using route WE+MW+LC) between WE and MW is Westbury. Therefore you would use map MW from Westbury, looking for the next intercept point with map LC. Given that all the maps have to be used in sequential order, then I can't skip map MW?

However, the route does not include the maltese cross next to Any Permitted, so that might cause problems on the Underground. Others may be able to add more.

I'm happy to buy a ticket to cover my journey through London, and had almost accepted it as inevitable. If I don't have to buy one, it would be a nice little bonus!

 

[bb21]

I can't see a mapped route via London, unfortunately, as MW does not actually go into London, and you have to use every single map in sequence without skipping any of them. There is also no intercept point between MW and any map down the WCML.

Will you be challenged going via London? It is difficult to say. It would be reasonable to expect that some passengers would want to go via London for such a journey I would expect, so some guards might well accept the ticket via London.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can't see a mapped route via London, unfortunately, as MW does not actually go into London, and you have to use every single map in sequence without skipping any of them. There is also no intercept point between MW and any map down the WCML.

Will you be challenged going via London? It is difficult to say. It would be reasonable to expect that some passengers would want to go via London for such a journey I would expect, so some guards might well accept the ticket via London.

If you put London in as a 'via point' with NRES you get the 'multiple tickets required' warning, and the fares given consist of two singles each way...

 

[bb21]

If you put London in as a 'via point' with NRES you get the 'multiple tickets required' warning, and the fares given consist of two singles each way...

I agree totally. I was just expressing the opinion that some guards might well pass the ticket via London.

Whether the OP is happy to take the chance is entirely his choice. A single ticket between Reading and Nuneaton (or somewhere further depending on the calling pattern of the service between London and Liverpool) would likely be charged if the guard does not pass the OP's ticket.

 

[tony_mac]

Will you be challenged going via London? It is difficult to say. It would be reasonable to expect that some passengers would want to go via London for such a journey I would expect, so some guards might well accept the ticket via London.

I have seen a Virgin guard challenge somebody who was travelling via London on a similar ticket.
Ultimately, he decided to do nothing about it, other than tell him that he wouldn't be allowed on at Paddington.

I think, particularly with the overcrowding on Crosscountry services, it's quite a sensible route.
However, a 'route via London' fare might be horribly expensive. You can get at least as far as Liverpool to Swindon with a via London ticket, but then it's nearly 50% more than not via London.

 

[MikeWh]

Edited my post. Somehow missed map MW being a crucial part of every combination.

 

[Laryk]

Thanks for your replies, good to see that we drew the same conclusions.

If via London is not valid, would that suggest that the itinerary printed at a ticket office does not take into account valid routes, instead suggesting shortest route?

Edit: By shortest I mean quickest

I have attached a picture of the itinerary in question.

I think, particularly with the overcrowding on Crosscountry services, it's quite a sensible route.

This is why I want it to be valid. My only other option is changing at Plymouth and getting a XC HST.

 

[sonic2009]

Thanks for your replies, good to see that we drew the same conclusions.

If via London is not valid, would that suggest that the itinerary printed at a ticket office does not take into account valid routes, instead suggesting shortest route?

I have attached a picture of the itinerary in question.



This is why I want it to be valid. My only other option is changing at Plymouth and getting a XC HST.

Is this for a Monday to Friday, or at the weekend?

 

[Laryk]

Is this for a Monday to Friday, or at the weekend?

Itinerary was for Saturday. I am travelling on a weekday

 

[bb21]

Edited my post. Somehow missed map MW being a crucial part of every combination.

In fact your post was perfectly accurate the way I read it, as you qualified it on the condition that the maps can be combined. (Not true in the OP's case but you said it as a general statement.)

If via London is not valid, would that suggest that the itinerary printed at a ticket office does not take into account valid routes, instead suggesting shortest route?

I think that would be the most logical conclusion.

Were you sold the ticket based on that itinerary? If so, then I would expect the ticket to be honoured.

 

[Laryk]

Were you sold the ticket based on that itinerary? If so, then I would expect the ticket to be honoured.

Sorry, I don't understand "sold the ticket based on that itenerary".

The itinerary was printed with the purchasing of the ticket, and I hadn't specified/asked for a route via London when I bought the ticket.

 

[bb21]

Sorry, I don't understand "sold the ticket based on that itenerary".

The itinerary was printed with the purchasing of the ticket, and I hadn't specified/asked for a route via London when I bought the ticket.

My point is that if the ticket office sold you the ticket on the basis of this itinerary via London (eg. bought the ticket, then asked for an itinerary, and was given this one), then I would consider the itinerary to be part of the contract, hence I would expect it to be honoured if you travel strictly according to this itinerary.

However it doesn't really matter any more as I have now read that you will not be travelling according to this itinerary anyway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If your ticket was "via London" it would have the Maltese Cross on it for the Underground bit.
However LIV-PNZ is an XC ticket so I don't think it is valid via London.
You can get a Liverpool via London ticket as far as Westbury (VT ticket).
And then a Westbury-PNZ (FGW). But this would not be valid via Cheltenham if you wanted to go back that way.
Might be cheaper with separate advances to/from London.

 

[34D]

If your ticket was "via London" it would have the Maltese Cross on it for the Underground bit.

Not necessarily.

Example Reading to Lee which is route London not Und (hence no Maltese cross).

Also, I can't find an example, but there are a number of any permitted tickets which are valid via London but don't show a Maltese cross.

Re our guy wanting to go via London, I wonder whether his local ticket office would happily give reservations via London? I'd expect so

 

[bb21]

Also, I can't find an example, but there are a number of any permitted tickets which are valid via London but don't show a Maltese cross.

Manchester - Reading is a prime example.

 

[soil]

If your ticket was "via London" it would have the Maltese Cross on it for the Underground bit.

This determines whether the ticket would work the barriers, but it does not determine validity. Many tickets are valid via London but lack a Maltese cross.

However LIV-PNZ is an XC ticket so I don't think it is valid via London.

The pricing TOC does not in any way determine validity via London.

XC tickets marked with a Maltese cross are:

Oxford/Reading - Sheffield via Chesterfield
Liskeard (etc.) - Gretna /Dumfries/Annan Any Permitted

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Manchester - Reading is a prime example.

That's a bit of an odd one with the "Any Permitted" fares somewhat cheaper than the "via London" fares. In a manner of speaking there's competition between operators, since you could go FGW/Virgin via London or Cross Country directly via Birmingham. Usually if Reading fares don't allow London, they are annotated Not Ldn. Reading to Exeter being an example.