Is first class declassified Reading to Waterloo?

[UserM]

Hi guys, just a question I’m pretty sure I know the answer too.

From Reading to Waterloo, the train has first class but I’m the timetable it is marked as standard class only.

That means I am entitled to sit in the first class area on a standard class ticket?

 

[wibble]

First Class was withdrawn on this route a few years ago, although the trains may still have First Class seats. You're OK to sit in the "First Class" seats.

 

[UserM]

First Class was withdrawn on this route a few years ago, although the trains may still have First Class seats. You're OK to sit in the "First Class" seats.

Thank you, I thought so. Just wanted to check, before I did!!

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi guys, just a question I’m pretty sure I know the answer too.

From Reading to Waterloo, the train has first class but I’m the timetable it is marked as standard class only.

That means I am entitled to sit in the first class area on a standard class ticket?

By convention this is the case, although only one of the following actually constitutes permission:

- removal of all first class markings on the accommodation
- a sign or notice explicitly stating the first class accommodation is available for standard ticket holders
- permission from an authorised person

From NRCOT 15.1:

Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket.

What the timetable says is not a factor in whether this is strictly allowed or not and it has become a perpetuated myth that it constitutes permission.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure it's a myth; it's one of those many things which is open to interpretation.

The rail industry could easily put this long running question to bed by simply stating that all trains which are advertised as conveying standard class only do not have first class and that, unless seats are marked as out of use, any seat can be taken.

But the rail industry doesn't like to make things clear, concise and simple, so that won't happen.

We do have SWR staff on this forum who can clarify the position on these trains (though they may not want to identify themselves as such); I will ask some.

 

[GWVillager]

By convention this is the case, although only one of the following actually constitutes permission:

- removal of all first class markings on the accommodation
- a sign or notice explicitly stating the first class accommodation is available for standard ticket holders
- permission from an authorised person

From NRCOT 15.1:

Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket.

What the timetable says is not a factor in whether this is strictly allowed or not and it has become a perpetuated myth that it constitutes permission.

Could it not be argued that the timetable qualifies as “permission from an authorised person”, or does it literally mean a face to face interaction?

 

[yorkie]

Could it not be argued that the timetable qualifies as “permission from an authorised person”, or does it literally mean a face to face interaction?

It certainly could be argued, but this sort of thing goes round in circles whenever it crops up. Different people have different interpretations.

 

[Haywain]

I think the question is more of whether one could be required to purchase a first class ticket (or pay an excess to first class) when travelling on a service that is advertised as being standard class only. In some cases there may not even be a first class fare.

 

[Benjwri]

Regardless if I’m remembering correctly I think it either says on the PIS, or an automated announcement that first class is declassified on the Reading to Waterloo trains, which constitutes permission.

 

[AlterEgo]

Regardless if I’m remembering correctly I think it either says on the PIS, or an automated announcement that first class is declassified on the Reading to Waterloo trains, which constitutes permission.

Indeed, and it is this which actually counts, not the timetable (in my view!). This is also the case with Thameslink too.

 

[island]

I have been charged a £5 weekend first supplement on this route in the past, though things may have subsequently changed.

 

[Benjwri]

I have been charged a £5 weekend first supplement on this route in the past, though things may have subsequently changed.

Depends how long ago, it was removed in December 2018 I believe. I’m almost certain there were automated announcements saying so when I used the line last month.

 

[swt_passenger]

Depends how long ago, it was removed in December 2018 I believe. I’m almost certain there were automated announcements saying so when I used the line last month.

Yes, Dec 2018 was the changeover, because the 701 introduction was “imminent”…

 

[Monty]

My understanding is that if first class is not advertised then it's declassified service and passengers can make use of the first class compartment if the train is so equipped.

Can't say I've seen an official brief about it either, probably because can't remember it ever being a problem.

That said, I a quick look and most of the tickets I could find for that route not longer have a first class option. So bit hard to enforce 1st class if the is no such fare.

 

[davews]

As mentioned, there is the occasional automatic announcement (and much rarer from the guard) the it is 'second class throughout'. I imagine that classifies as 'a sign or notice'. Don't worry, you can sit there.

 

[infobleep]

My understanding is that if first class is not advertised then it's declassified service and passengers can make use of the first class compartment if the train is so equipped.

Can't say I've seen an official brief about it either, probably because can't remember it ever being a problem.

That said, I a quick look and most of the tickets I could find for that route not longer have a first class option. So bit hard to enforce 1st class if the is no such fare.

I hadn't even realised it was standard class throughout now. Not that I use the route much but in future, if I did, I'd make a point of sitting in the carriages with the labels saying first class. Even if only for 2 minutes. It's just something I enjoy doing.

 

[yorkie]

From a member of SWR staff on this forum:

I can confirm that First Class is no longer in use on the Waterloo to Reading route. It was officially withdrawn in preparation for the Class 701 suburban roll-out, with the 458/5 conversion seeing the First Class removed on those too. It’s only the continued use of 450s on the line due to the 701’s delay that is seeing physical First Class appear, but there has been no change to the withdrawal of First Class as a product from the ‘Windsor side’ services. I agree the timetables could make this clearer though, as routes with First Class tend to denote these services by way of a small ‘1’ symbol or, such as the mainline timetables, text to the effect of ‘First Class is available on services shown in bold’. A simpler and more uniform ‘1’ symbol for services with First Class and blank for services without would be something I’d perhaps have opted for if it was me doing them.

A mixed route example is the Aldershot to Ascot timetable, which on weekday peaks has some through London services that join the Reading route at Ascot. The shuttles are denoted with ‘1’ symbols but the through London trains are shown as Standard Class only. Eg 0619/49 Farnham to Waterloo on Page 5 of https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/-/media/35721d50afb94b91afa6c567327aaef9.ashx

Another mixed example is the Portsmouth Direct, which has a random Class 458 working on the 2145 Waterloo to Haslemere, with the timetable showing an ‘S’ for standard class only at https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/-/media/b6afddf8dbbe43a28d9895f2ea4121c4.ashx

A copy of the original announcement can be found at: https://www.surreyheathconservatives.org.uk/news/update-south-western-railway-rail-services

Hopefully that clarifies

And another says:

458 stock should all have their First Class stickers removed from the train so if any are spotted this needs to be reported to the company for action.
450 PIS displays should all say area available for Standard Class ticket holders in First Class sections if set up with the correct route code. Again if not the case I can feed back if we know the code involved.
455/707 stock do not have First Class accommodation.

No passenger should be charged excess fare on the Reading route for sitting in First Class accommodation (where available). There should be no reason to.

 

[UserM]

Regardless if I’m remembering correctly I think it either says on the PIS, or an automated announcement that first class is declassified on the Reading to Waterloo trains, which constitutes permission.

Indeed, this is correct. With repeated announcements after every couple of stops, stating that this service is standard class only.

Does that constitute permission from an authorised person in the eyes of the forum? Or indeed another permission to prevent being penalty-fared or charged an excess. (Not that one is available on this rogue, though helpful for others)?

From a member of SWR staff on this forum:

Hopefully that clarifies

And another says:

Thank you, indeed that seemed the case. Just wanted to make sure as from Reading this forum know what an overzealous RPI can do.

Thank you for this, indeed credit to SWR, they replied in the affirmative on Twitter(X)

Would this also constitute permission from an authorised person, if needed for another route or TOC?

 

[Watershed]

Indeed, this is correct. With repeated announcements after every couple of stops, stating that this service is standard class only.

Does that constitute permission from an authorised person in the eyes of the forum? Or indeed another permission to prevent being penalty-fared or charged an excess. (Not that one is available on this rogue, though helpful for others)?


Thank you, indeed that seemed the case. Just wanted to make sure as from Reading this forum know what an overzealous RPI can do.

Thank you for this, indeed credit to SWR, they replied in the affirmative on Twitter(X)

Would this also constitute permission from an authorised person, if needed for another route or TOC?

Both of these things would seem ample as permission from an authorised person.

Remember that under the Byelaws, "authorised person" doesn't mean that they must have been given the authority by their employer to make certain statements. It merely means:

a person acting in the course of his duties who is an employee or agent of an operator, or any other person authorised by an operator

And clearly, those who reply on Twitter will be an employee or contractor (i.e. agent) of an operator.

 

[UserM]

Both of these things would seem ample as permission from an authorised person.

Remember that under the Byelaws, "authorised person" doesn't mean that they must have been given the authority by their employer to make certain statements. It merely means:

And clearly, those who reply on Twitter will be an employee or contractor (i.e. agent) of an operator.

I very much thought so, but wanted to confirm in case anyone else stumbles upon this thread with similar questions.

Though it would be much more helpful if indeed timetables were marked more clearly by SWR to confirm such.

 

[redreni]

Regardless if I’m remembering correctly I think it either says on the PIS, or an automated announcement that first class is declassified on the Reading to Waterloo trains, which constitutes permission.

Thameslink Luton to Rainham has first class declassified over the entire route although the last time I checked, on the train itself, the passenger information system only states "standard class ticket holders may use this area" in the rear first class section, not at the front.

But the automated announcements say "first class accommodation is not available on the train" which I've always interpreted that, combined with the fact the first class compartments are available and not locked out of use (which they could be), together with the fact you can't buy a first class ticket, as amounting to permission. I've had my contactless card checked on the train without the ticket inspector batting an eyelid.

 

[Haywain]

together with the fact you can't buy a first class ticket, as amounting to permission.

Except that you can buy first class tickets for much of the route covered by those services.

 

[redreni]

Except that you can buy first class tickets for much of the route covered by those services.

Forgive me, you're right.

I must admit to a degree of confusion over when first class fares are offered or not:
Luton to Rainham - Yes
City Thameslink to London Bridge - Yes
City Thameslink to Rainham - No.

In any case the announcements are, as far as I can make out, intended to signify whether first class is enforced, with some trains getting "First class accommodation is available at the front of this train" and others (including all Luton-Rainham in both directions) getting "First class accommodation is not available on the train".

Thameslink just aren't very good at getting their announcements and displays to convey their rather complicated first class policy consistently, clearly and accurately (hence front first class on the run down to Rainham saying it's for first class ticket holders only).

Hopefully SWT Reading to Waterloo is a bit better than that.

 

[blakey1152]

Forgive me, you're right.

I must admit to a degree of confusion over when first class fares are offered or not:
Luton to Rainham - Yes
City Thameslink to London Bridge - Yes
City Thameslink to Rainham - No.

In any case the announcements are, as far as I can make out, intended to signify whether first class is enforced, with some trains getting "First class accommodation is available at the front of this train" and others (including all Luton-Rainham in both directions) getting "First class accommodation is not available on the train".

Thameslink just aren't very good at getting their announcements and displays to convey their rather complicated first class policy consistently, clearly and accurately (hence front first class on the run down to Rainham saying it's for first class ticket holders only).

Hopefully SWT Reading to Waterloo is a bit better than that.

On the Thameslink trains towards Rainham, First Class is declassified at one end of the train (can't remember which!) but if you sit in there the scrolling message on the display actually says that Standard Class ticket holders can sit there - Although quite why anyone would pay extra for First Class on this route remains a mystery to me as benefits are virtually zero!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I was on a 450 from Reading to Waterloo not long ago with fully labeled first class section. I went to sit in it after an automated announcement confirmed the seating accommodation was all standard. Went back to Standard Class when I found out, incredibly, the first class seats were far less comfortable than the standard class ones!

 

[Haywain]

On the Thameslink trains towards Rainham, First Class is declassified at one end of the train (can't remember which!)

It's declassified at both ends. The rear section is declassified on all Thameslink services.

 

[stuving]

There were station posters in December 2018 announcing "As this new fleet starts to cascade, First Class will be available on fewer services from this station. As a result, all trains on the Reading, Aldershot (via Camberley and Ascot) and London Waterloo routes will be fully declassified and become standard only". Of course there were already some trains on these routes with no first class seats.

I don't know if a simpler version is still there, saying that all first class seats are declassified, but I suspect so. After a little while you stop noticing them, and I imagine the staff do too except when tasked to do something with posters.

 

[redreni]

It's declassified at both ends. The rear section is declassified on all Thameslink services.

Yes that's my understanding too, and I've had my contactless card checked while sitting in the first class compartment at the front where the scrolling messages say "this area is for first class ticket holders only" without issue.

Blakey is absolutely right that if you believe the scrolling messages, it's only declassified at the rear. I did email them drawing it to their attention and pointing out that if they don't make sure the information they're putting out is correct, people won't be able to rely on it. They didn't bother replying and certainly didn't bother to fix the scrolling messages.