Is international travel actually necessary?

[43066]

I completely agree here. We need to encourage domestic travel to be done by rail, the short flights are unnecessary and polluting. I do think and hope this will happen with an increased focus on green travel once the pandemic is over.

Interestingly, the Belgian Transport Minister took a 34 mile flight this week from Brussels to Antwerp, which takes 46 minutes on the train (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ister-in-row-over-34-mile-trip-in-private-jet). The reaction here was quite rightly one of outrage.

Encourage it by all means - but a *total* ban on domestic air travel?!

In a country the size of the UK the majority of business travel will already take place by train. It’s hardly likely that anyone is going to fly from London to Bristol/Leeds/Manchester/Birmingham.

But someone based in London is able to fly to Edinburgh for a day of meetings, and then be back in London by early evening. That simply wouldn’t be possible by train.

 

[Richard Scott]

Jobs for all (or nearly all) are essential, but all jobs that existed in March aren't essential. There are plenty of jobs that contributed little to the economy, or even damaged it.

Seems Welsh Assembly Government are falling into later category with their persistence we shouldn't go further than 5 miles whilst many lose their livelihoods.

 

[Mike395]

Whilst I see your logic with this thread @Bletchleyite - I'd be strongly opposed to a full border closure for 1 year or more, even if it helps wipe out COVID19 more quickly. My brother/sister-in-law are based in the USA, and my niece is growing up there. Knowing me as someone who's only behind a screen, rather than meeting in real life, for that period of time is harmful - Zoom calls really do lose that human connection to a certain extent. It's not just business trips and people taking holidays - don't forget there are families who are currently split up and missing each other all over the world, you're honestly not suggesting these people are going to, by law, have to be physically separated for potentially years?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree here. We should at least try to encourage domestic travel to be done by rail, the short flights are unnecessary and polluting. I do think and hope this will happen with an increased focus on green travel once the pandemic is over.

Agreed. This will need to involve better integration - such as a Manchester or Edinburgh to Heathrow journey on the same ticket as a long haul flight - but it is doable - plenty of countries do it now. Even easier with HS2, quick change to Crossrail at Old Oak for Heathrow, less faff than the Gatwick shuttle.

Interestingly, the Belgian Transport Minister took a 34 mile flight this week from Brussels to Antwerp, which takes 46 minutes on the train (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ister-in-row-over-34-mile-trip-in-private-jet). The reaction here was quite rightly one of outrage.

Internal flights in a country the size of the London commuter area are indeed utterly disgraceful, even worse in a private jet rather than a tightly packed A320.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know about Scotland - wouldn't go there if you paid me - but certainly Cornwall, The Lakes, Devon and Wales have been so bluntly rude about tourists since this started that I find myself hoping nobody goes near when they start begging for tourists to return and they all go bust. I don't like saying that so much of the behaviour was, and still is, unacceptable.

I love the North Wales coast but you won't catch me going there again in a hurry once this is over. They can get lost.

There is that, yes, and I did point it out. There is the option, though, of camping and self-catering, then you can go to those beautiful places while putting no more than £5-10 a night into the local economy, if wishing to take that line.

 

[HSTEd]

Depends on the country. For the UK, indeed, domestic air travel (with the exception of flights from Mainland UK to Northern Ireland, and strongly isolated places where flying is the only option such as Scilly Islands) is indeed pointless. You have many great trains, like Cross Country, LNER, Avanti West Coast, EMR, Transpennine Express, you know.

The railway simply isn't fit for purpose though.
With some minor exceptions it has steadfastly refused to adopt innovations to make it cheaper and easier to operate.

We won't even be rid of "signal boxes" until ~2060.

 

[Scrotnig]

There is that, yes, and I did point it out. There is the option, though, of camping and self-catering, then you can go to those beautiful places while putting no more than £5-10 a night into the local economy, if wishing to take that line.

True but I’d rather just not go. Wales and Cornwall were fairly hostile to tourists even before this all started. It’s time they learned what side their bread is buttered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Frankly I’m amazed the suggestion in the OP has even been made. The absolute *last* thing we need to be doing at the moment is further shutting down aspects of our economy. We need to be getting things moving again!

The premise of the thread is that, once we have COVID under control in this country, by closing our borders (or imposing an indefinite strict quarantine) we can put the rest of the economy fully back to normal while restricting only one of the least necessary activities people do until a vaccine or effective treatment is available. I do still, even following the debate, take that line - it's not dissimilar to our approach to rabies which has been very successful.

Goods moving are essential to the economy, but goods can move without (many) people, and those people can be controlled carefully. Immigration can with the quarantine approach still happen, as if you're intending to permanently move to a country (or even just for 12 months) 2 weeks is neither here nor there compared with the rest of your life.

There's the secondary point about the environment and how/if/when we restart which is more debatable, but I can't see any sensible arguments against the former situation at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railway simply isn't fit for purpose though.

It is. Not many people fly domestically as it is. A couple of extra 9-car 80x or 11-car Pendolinos on each main route would sweep them all up nicely.

 

[HSTEd]

It is. Not many people fly domestically as it is. A couple of extra 9-car 80x or 11-car Pendolinos on each main route would sweep them all up nicely.

It's far too expensive for people to want to do that, and far too slow.
If you want to support a ban on domestic air travel, you need to provide a decent alternative service.

Theres no point replacing a £50 plane ticket with a £500 train ticket. (Numbers invented for effect).

 

[43066]

The railway simply isn't fit for purpose though.
With some minor exceptions it has steadfastly refused to adopt innovations to make it cheaper and easier to operate.

We won't even be rid of "signal boxes" until ~2060.

You say that like it’s a bad thing .

The premise of the thread is that, once we have COVID under control in this country, by closing our borders (or imposing an indefinite strict quarantine) we can put the rest of the economy fully back to normal while restricting only one of the least necessary activities people do until a vaccine or effective treatment is available. I do still, even following the debate, take that line - it's not dissimilar to our approach to rabies which has been very successful.

Goods moving are essential to the economy, but goods can move without (many) people, and those people can be controlled carefully. Immigration can with the quarantine approach still happen, as if you're intending to permanently move to a country (or even just for 12 months) 2 weeks is neither here nor there compared with the rest of your life.

There's the secondary point about the environment and how/if/when we restart which is more debatable, but I can't see any sensible arguments against the former situation at all.

I think you’re in danger of assuming that your definition of “necessary” is the same as everyone else’s. Like it or not people have got used to cheap and plentiful air travel over the last couple of decades or so. I can’t see them voting for a government which wants to restrict that over the longer term. Air travel will inevitably be suppressed over the next few years, in any case, but it will return eventually.

People need something to look forward to! Lets face it, a week in the Lake District will never have the same allure for many as a European break. Most of the touristy areas of the UK are a pain to get to, expensive, and you end up with crap weather when you’re there. And, as noted above, many locals in these areas actively seem to despise tourists.

As stated above air travel still has an important role to play for business - that role has evolved due to remote meetings etc. But it’s very much still there.

The idea of completely devastating a significant industry in the UK, and cutting ourselves off from the world, based on this virus is completely OTT in my view.

It is. Not many people fly domestically as it is.

Indeed. Which begs the question, what purpose would banning it really serve?

EDIT: and the environmental aspects of air travel have improved in recent years - EasyJet now claims to be fully Carbon Neutral, for example.

 

[Mintona]

Yes, providing a good level of employment is essential, that's all. We do not have to restart air travel to the extent it had got to, and my view is strongly that we should not do so, in particular, other than the Scottish Highland socially necessary routes it's strongly my view that domestic air travel should not be allowed at all, as there is simply no need for it.

I barely even have to pay for the train and I still flew to Inverness last year. Balls to sitting on a voyager for eight hours.

 

[HSTEd]

You say that like it’s a bad thing .

Well in terms of trying to build a lean railway that moves people for minimum cost... it sort of is.

 

[43066]

Well in terms of trying to build a lean railway that moves people for minimum cost... it sort of is.

That isn’t entirely the railway’s fault. The reason fares are where they are is largely due to the decision of the government to place more and more of the burden of running the railway onto users, rather than taking subsidy from general taxation. The reason we still have signal boxes is because it’s simply cheaper to maintain them on lightly trafficked secondary routes than to invest in enormously expensive resignalling projects.

It is also perfectly possible to travel by train for very reasonable prices if you book in advance. The high peak fares are generally paid by commuters with season tickets, or business travellers who aren’t paying from their own pockets.

The railway is also pretty good at connecting businesses travellers from London to the majority of major UK commercial centres (and vice versa). Most are reachable by train from London within a couple of hours.

Where rail falls down is the Cross Country style “not via London” journeys - getting from Exeter to Manchester/Birmingham etc. and back in a day is the kind of journey that wouldn’t be doable by train, but would have been by Flybe.

 

[Butts]

Yes, providing a good level of employment is essential, that's all. We do not have to restart air travel to the extent it had got to, and my view is strongly that we should not do so, in particular, other than the Scottish Highland socially necessary routes it's strongly my view that domestic air travel should not be allowed at all, as there is simply no need for it.

Sorry but can't agree with that, some of us up here prefer Par Avion !!

 

[221129]

Exeter to Manchester/Birmingham etc. and back in a day is the kind of journey that wouldn’t be doable by train, but would have been by Flybe.

Exeter to Brum and even Manchester is perfectly doable in a day.

 

[AM9]

... and the environmental aspects of air travel have improved in recent years - EasyJet now claims to be fully Carbon Neutral, for example.

So what fiddle do they use to explain away the burning of around 800+ gallons of hydrocarbon fuel, - do they pay somebody else who says that they will plant a few trees?

 

[Llanigraham]

I barely even have to pay for the train and I still flew to Inverness last year. Balls to sitting on a voyager for eight hours.

Exactly.
A national Club I am a member hold a couple of meetings a year in London. For our Scottish delegate to attend by train means she would have to travel on one day, meeting on the second day and return by train on the third day, so entailing 2 nights accomodation in London plus meals. At the moment she can fly there and back in one day.

 

[chris11256]

Broadly is international travel necessary to being alive, no it's not. However any suggestion that we should shut down boarders is extreme, Government is already signalling that the quarantine is essentially dead at the end of this month or early July. By all means we should restrict travel to/from hotpots, but that's it. I think the Government has realised that their plan is a disaster and should have been done in February/March rather than now.

In my case my wife & I have already rebooked our Norwegian Fjords cruise with P&O(were going on the 27th of this month) for Easter 2021 and are planning on going to Japan for a few weeks in June, also next year.

 

[Mag_seven]

OK just a gentle reminder that we are discussing the question "Is International travel actually necessary?" in this thread. I've had to delete some off topic posts about the relationships between the UK nations. If anyone wants to discuss that or anything else then please feel free start a new thread in the appropriate section.

 

[Llanigraham]

Broadly is international travel necessary to being alive, no it's not. However any suggestion that we should shut down boarders is extreme, Government is already signalling that the quarantine is essentially dead at the end of this month or early July. By all means we should restrict travel to/from hotpots, but that's it. I think the Government has realised that their plan is a disaster and should have been done in February/March rather than now.

In my case my wife & I have already rebooked our Norwegian Fjords cruise with P&O(were going on the 27th of this month) for Easter 2021 and are planning on going to Japan for a few weeks in June, also next year.

Likewise.
We've just rebooked our May cancelled cruise on the Duoro for May 2022, and confirmed our river cruise on the Rhone in 2021.

 

[43066]

Exeter to Brum and even Manchester is perfectly doable in a day.

Two very bad examples there (my non London geography is awful ). But the general point stands - there are journeys not easily doable by train that would be possible by domestic flights.

So what fiddle do they use to explain away the burning of around 800+ gallons of hydrocarbon fuel, - do they pay somebody else who says that they will plant a few trees?

Something along those lines. No idea whether it’s true or not but I doubt they’d be allowed to state it if it was completely baseless.

 

[railfan99]

To answer the OP's quesion, international travel is most necessary for those of us who are Australian, and wanting to travel on the main lines and branches of the UK and Europe on which we have not so far.

As well, while I have been to Brignorth, I need to visit many other preserved railways. There'd be many Australian railfans who consider that the UK (with 217!) has the best preserved railway scene worldwide.

 

[AM9]

Two very bad examples there (my non London geography is awful ). But the general point stands - there are journeys not easily doable by train that would be possible by domestic flights. ...

Of course there are journeys that are difficult or in the case of those crossing stretches of water, impossible by any land based mode. I general terms, the volume of necessary journeys on those paths is very low, which across land at least is why there isn't a rail link anyway. Integrated (low carbon) transport systems can take that as far as possible, leaving a skeleton service of air transport to serve where speed is essential.

... Something along those lines. No idea whether it’s true or not but I doubt they’d be allowed to state it if it was completely baseless.

The integrity of some of the carbon offset schemes sold by airlines and other gross polluters has increasingly been called into question, particularly in respect of whether the measures would have happened anyway. If that was the case, then the carbon offset money just went into sombody's pocket as additional profit.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I think an element of travel is certainly necessary. Look at Provodnik's video on YouTube of a lengthy Romanian train carrying key workers that arrived in Austria recently. Staff shortages are rife in some nations (key staff).

 

[HSTEd]

Something along those lines. No idea whether it’s true or not but I doubt they’d be allowed to state it if it was completely baseless.

The accounting tricks used by offset companies drive my PhD supervisor to distraction.

Things like planting trees and then claiming the entire equilibrium carbon content of a mature forest immediately.

I often joke I should plant coast redwoods, I could claim millenias worth of captured carbon immediately and make hilarious sums of money.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I think a COVID treatment that will reduce the death levels to a bad winter flu (which would be enough to totally abolish distancing, as we don't distance for that) ....

Though it has the potential to get bigger, the total global deaths from Covid19 stood at around 436,000 today.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

The WHO has previously stated winter flu kills up to 650,000 people every year

 

[Reliablebeam]

I notice the Daily Mail has a story showing the Spanish tourist industry re-opening - with the caveat that the Germans have 'beaten' Brits to it.... I think this gives a flavour of the type of headlines we shall look forward to if Brits are imprisoned here in the Rain Factory and northern Europeans (in particular the Teutonic rival) are sunning themselves on Spanish beaches. No doubt the government is well aware of the 'optics' of this, and I seem to recall a story along these lines in the Guardian a few weeks back. Stand by for it to get even worse if the great British weather doesn't play ball. A few commentators have speculated that this quarantine may be a ham fisted attempt at forcing us to holiday in the UK - my feeling - this will backfire, nastily and do more damage. I was also thinking that many of the things Britain does well - museums, galleries, palaces, castles, entertainment, pubs - all of the places that are zero pleasure with 2m of social distancing. As a few in this thread have pointed out there isn't exactly a warm welcome in the touristy areas of the UK, and as a north Walian myself I get the impression there will be 'dim croeso'.

On another note, there is much in the media about our summer holidays that ignores how integrated we are with Europe - all well and good banging on about going to Benidorm, what about those of us who need to travel on business to Germany, Scandinavia etc..? We are not New Zealand - what works for them in terms of living with Covid is not going to work for a country connected by a tunnel to one of its nearest neighbours and has strong business connections with Europe. The Kiwis (and possibly the Aussies if they choose this path) will have to stay locked off from the rest of the world, possibly forever. Good luck with that. And as for Teams/Zoom meetings? Everyone I speak is heartily sick of it - it's no substitute for face to face interaction, at all. And some tasks are no-goers - factory acceptance tests, scientific experiments, service calls. If Britain is truly closed for business, we are screwed.

 

[al78]

Precisely my point. 1-5 years of holidaying like we did in the 1930s is not going to kill anybody. They might discover a love for somewhere new in the UK! Just like thousands if not millions of people have been discovering the enjoyment of outdoor exercise.

People do need a break, but how about Edinburgh instead of Paris, or the Lake District instead of the Pyrenees if you're outdoors minded? Or Cornwall if you like the beach?

I do holiday in the UK, I go to the Scottish highlands and either pick a base and do long day hikes up hills from there, or do point-to-point backpacking across the very remote parts. I can't even do that at the moment, and there is no indication of when I will be able too, because people living up there are continuing to say "STAY AWAY". Holidaying in the UK is an excellent option, once it becomes an option again.

 

[route101]

I do holiday in the UK, I go to the Scottish highlands and either pick a base and do long day hikes up hills from there, or do point-to-point backpacking across the very remote parts. I can't even do that at the moment, and there is no indication of when I will be able too, because people living up there are continuing to say "STAY AWAY". Holidaying in the UK is an excellent option, once it becomes an option again.

Hopefully from the 15th of July you can