Is it an offence to buy tickets on a pay as you go basis, rather than all in one, at the start of the journey?

[father_jack]

Moderator note: Split from

Stopped by a revenue officer at the train station,says he suspected i was not going to buy a ticket.

I was stopped at the rail station by a revenue officer that he suspected I was not going to buy a ticket because I did not buy a direct ticket from my departure to my final destination. My explanation is that I was coming from severn beach and the journey of the train ends at Bristol temple...

www.railforums.co.uk

Isn't there an obligation for a passenger to hold a ticket or tickets for the entire journey they intend to make ?

And if they incriminate themselves, by answering when asked where have they come from, and where are they going to, and what tickets do they hold, surely they're "bang to rights"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something that maybe is being missed here- isn't there an obligation for a passenger to hold a ticket or tickets for the entire journey they intend to make ? And if they incriminate themself by answering when asked where have they come from and where are they going to and what tickets do they hold surely they're "bang to rights"..............

For the entire journey they attempt to make.

What's in their heads about what they might do when they run out of tickets, clearly not. Rebooking has always* been permissible. Thus the OP would have committed no offence until they stepped aboard another train minus an onward ticket.

* BR tried to stop it (where done to save money) but lost in Court; legal precedent now means splitting can't be banned in England and Wales at least. In Ireland where this doesn't apply, splitting to save money is prohibited.

 

[richw]

isn't there an obligation for a passenger to hold a ticket or tickets for the entire journey they intend to make

Unsure, but what about the scenario where the original plans change, and they buy a second ticket?

The OP would have needed a ticket to exit the barriers at Cardiff, so unless the intention was to doughnut, he would have needed to have the second ticket

 

[spag23]

Something that maybe is being missed here- isn't there an obligation for a passenger to hold a ticket or tickets for the entire journey they intend to make ?

So when I intentionally travelled from St Albans to Great Portland St (like I did last week) I was breaching the law in buying one ticket to St Pancras, before buying another for the two stops on the Met Line.
I committed this offence on the way home too.
I am waiting behind my letter box for the Fraud Dept letter.
Not.

 

[RPI]

Unsure, but what about the scenario where the original plans change, and they buy a second ticket?

The OP would have needed a ticket to exit the barriers at Cardiff, so unless the intention was to doughnut, he would have needed to have the second ticket

There's always the possibility that when stopped, evidence of intended donutting was observed (possibly on their booking history), that's pure speculation on my part, but shows that there could be more to this than meets the eye.

 

[Harpers Tate]

As far as I can (inexpertly) fathom - you only commit an offence when you board a train without a ticket valid for that train (or remain onboard after the ticket ceases to be valid). If right, then, you can buy as many tickets as you care to, as long as each is bought before you board the applicable train. I suspect that you could even board a through train at A (going via and calling at B to C) with a ticket to B only, buy another ticket B-C before the train arrives at B and still be within the rules. E&OE

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I can (inexpertly) fathom - you only commit an offence when you board a train without a ticket valid for that train (or remain onboard after the ticket ceases to be valid). If right, then, you can buy as many tickets as you care to, as long as each is bought before you board the applicable train. I suspect that you could even board a through train at A (going via and calling at B to C) with a ticket to B only, buy another ticket B-C before the train arrives at B and still be within the rules. E&OE

I seem to recall it's also an offence to attempt to travel, which brings in trying to pass gatelines with an invalid ticket for instance (I checked this after reading a case in Disputes about someone being written up for prosecution having NOT passed a gateline but having attempted to do so). However I don't think hanging around on a station would constitute that, though boarding a train would.

 

[island]

I seem to recall it's also an offence to attempt to travel, which brings in trying to pass gatelines with an invalid ticket for instance (I checked this after reading a case in Disputes about someone being written up for prosecution having NOT passed a gateline but having attempted to do so). However I don't think hanging around on a station would constitute that, though boarding a train would.

Correct on all counts.

 

[John Luxton]

Isn't there an obligation for a passenger to hold a ticket or tickets for the entire journey they intend to make ?

What happens if someone has a season ticket or concessionary pass? They may intend to do a longer journey but may rebook at the validity boundary if the journey is longer.

Since reaching the age which entitles me to a Merseyrail over 60s pass I have often used that to travel to Chester as part of a longer journey into TfW land.

However, I always pass though the gate line at Chester and buy an onward ticket.

So yes I may be travelling to say Shrewsbury but it needs a ticket from Chester thus I buy one at the station and then travel onwards.

Providing I have valid pass / ticket for the journey I am travelling on I am sure the gate line staff are not interested in my intentions.

 

[island]

Isn't there an obligation for a passenger to hold a ticket or tickets for the entire journey they intend to make ?

No.

The relevant obligations are:

• To hold a valid ticket before entering into any compulsory ticket zone
• To hold a valid ticket before joining a train for the purpose of travel
• To present or hand over a ticket when asked
• Not to travel or attempt to travel without having paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof
• To quit the carriage one is in upon arrival at the point to which one's fare is paid

 

[jadmor]

I boarded a train today at Rosyth without a ticket and travelled to Inverkeithing. My justification was that I was going to by a Fife concessionary fare from the guard if approached. I have done this before without any problem. Today I was not checked, so I went to the ticket office to get the ticket I needed to travel to Leuchars. If I had not been planning to travel beyond Inverkeithing, I could have saved a quid as there are no gates here. Am I potentially committing an offence by doing this? i Would like to think not, as there is no option to purchase this ticket at a machine or online.

 

[ComUtoR]

No.

The relevant obligations are:

• To hold a valid ticket before entering into any compulsory ticket zone

If I arrived at a station; holding a valid ticket to that station. How long could I remain on the platform, without exiting the barriers/station ?

 

[father_jack]

No.

The relevant obligations are:

• To hold a valid ticket before entering into any compulsory ticket zone
• To hold a valid ticket before joining a train for the purpose of travel
• To present or hand over a ticket when asked
• Not to travel or attempt to travel without having paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof
• To quit the carriage one is in upon arrival at the point to which one's fare is paid

Thank you for clarifying.

I do remember certain revenue protection staff getting in a right 2 and 8 over where people wanted split tickets from TVM only stations and the TVM only doing that origin, so they'd ask for the next part of the split on board.....

But then this-

• To quit the carriage one is in upon arrival at the point to which one's fare is paid

So can you be booted off on that scenario...... ?

 

[island]

If I arrived at a station; holding a valid ticket to that station. How long could I remain on the platform, without exiting the barriers/station ?

There is no legally defined firm answer to the question, but an officer of the railway would be within their rights to ask you to leave as you no longer have any valid reason to be on the station. At some point you would be in breach of the Railway Byelaws around loitering on the railway.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So can you be booted off on that scenario...... ?

The NRCOT state you must buy the tickets for your entire journey prior to boarding the train, where ticketing facilities exist. It means you can’t avail of buy-on-board if you don’t.

So that situation is complicated. If there’s a ticket office then you need to buy the lot at the ticket office before you board. If the TVM has no facility to buy the ticket you require then the usual rules apply.

 

[johnny_t]

So when I intentionally travelled from St Albans to Great Portland St (like I did last week) I was breaching the law in buying one ticket to St Pancras, before buying another for the two stops on the Met Line.
I committed this offence on the way home too.
I am waiting behind my letter box for the Fraud Dept letter.
Not.

I do similar. Whenever I go from Selby to Heathrow, I buy my Selby to London ticket, and then just sort out the bit to Heathrow using contactless when I get down there. It just seems like less fannying about than trying to force the Trainline to give me the correct ticket combination I want, out of the many ways of getting to Heathrow from Kings Cross.

 

[fandroid]

This has all arisen from one relatively recent innovation. That is etickets. Before those, a passenger intending to travel further than their current ticket allowed had to either:

1. Seek out a conductor/guard onboard to purchase a paper ticket or
2. Buy online when on board and leave the train, go through barriers and get a TOD from a machine or
3. Get off the train, go through the barriers to a ticket office.
4. Take their chances with onboard inspections or challenges at their destination. They'd know they were chancing it, however loud their protestations when found out.

All these were well understood by passengers

The railway has trumpeted the e-ticket revolution as a cost-saving measure for them and a big convenience for customers. However, it failed to seriously consider how innovative customers, both innocent and not-so-innocent, would be. They changed the rules concerning on-board ticket purchases, without consistently applying them or thinking through how valid exceptions to the rules could be fairly policed and communicated.

 

[spag23]

The NRCOT state you must buy the tickets for your entire journey prior to boarding the train, where ticketing facilities exist.

Sorry Tetchytyke, but I can't find this stipulation anywhere in the NRCOT. Where it is?
(I'm still worried that buying an onward ticket at any intermediate station (eg London Terminals) leaves me - and thousands of commuters - liable to prosecution).
For the avoidance of doubt, the scenario does not involve a break of journey, as the legs are contiguous, and don't involve leaving railway premises en route.

 

[nr758123]

What happens if someone has a season ticket or concessionary pass? They may intend to do a longer journey but may rebook at the validity boundary if the journey is longer.

This is something I do quite often. It never occurred to me that I might be expected to buy the ticket for onward travel (i.e. beyond the limit of my season ticket) before boarding, when I can buy on a phone app during the 20 minute journey on which my season ticket is valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is something I do quite often. It never occurred to me that I might be expected to buy the ticket for onward travel (i.e. beyond the limit of my season ticket) before boarding, when I can buy on a phone app during the 20 minute journey on which my season ticket is valid.

I can't see a major issue with doing it on board before the train has called at the last station your season was valid at, as long as you're ready to leave the train there if you can't. After all no inspector can know what is in your head as an intention to go beyond validity unless you tell them.

For a non-stop split, I'd say you would need to do it before or you're boarding without validity.

 

[ac6000cw]

The NRCOT state you must buy the tickets for your entire journey prior to boarding the train, where ticketing facilities exist.

Where in the NRCOT document does it state that?

I've been reading through the latest version from the NRE website and I can't find it.

 

[Buzby]

The TVMs covering ScotRail cannot issue Saltire Concession tickets - so you have to purchase a ticket from a manned ticket office, and if there isn’t one - from the guard on the train. Sometimes even your destination station if it has a TO, but if the gateline is open…..

 

[Krokodil]

I boarded a train today at Rosyth without a ticket and travelled to Inverkeithing. My justification was that I was going to by a Fife concessionary fare from the guard if approached. I have done this before without any problem. Today I was not checked, so I went to the ticket office to get the ticket I needed to travel to Leuchars. If I had not been planning to travel beyond Inverkeithing, I could have saved a quid as there are no gates here. Am I potentially committing an offence by doing this? i Would like to think not, as there is no option to purchase this ticket at a machine or online.

As the fare you required wasn't available you didn't commit an offence. There may be an obligation to get a promise to pay from the machine if they do them.

Had you boarded the onward train without at least already having bought that portion you would have committed an offence as it was a fare available at a TVM. Unless of course those TVMs don't allow purchase of a ticket from a different origin in which case you could only have done it at the interchange station - there isn't an obligation to miss a connection in order to double back to the ticket office, though if you've got enough time then you should (and did).

 

[The Ham]

I buy a ticket from A to C and then C to E, all purchased before I leave (edit: off peak, so not restricted to a given train), however on arrival to B (change station) the earlier train which does not stop at C is running late so I can catch that, so whilst on the platform I buy a ticket from B to D. (Place letters are in order in direction of travel so C is before D, so if anything my tickets overlap).

When checked I have to show all three tickets, but the guard is happy. In the past the guard would likely have been happy to take payment for the extra to "upgrade" my ticket from A to C to be A to D.

Whist I had tickets for a valid journey before leaving, I then purchased an additional ticket on route to speed up my journey.

Likewise it's cheaper to use TfL touch in touch out than buy paper tickets, so it's reasonable for people to buy a paper ticket to a change station and then touch in to carry on, even if a paper ticket is technically available.

Whatever rules are in place are always going to have to take on board the way people can do things.

 

[nw1]

I seem to recall it's also an offence to attempt to travel, which brings in trying to pass gatelines with an invalid ticket for instance (I checked this after reading a case in Disputes about someone being written up for prosecution having NOT passed a gateline but having attempted to do so). However I don't think hanging around on a station would constitute that, though boarding a train would.

Indeed, they could be a rail enthusiast wishing to visit the station for enthusiast purposes, so passing the gates in itself does not necessarily provide evidence for attempting to travel.

Of course if platform tickets still existed (I don't think they do?) this problem would go away. (As an aside I wonder what an enthusiast does in this case? Negotiate with staff? Buy a return ticket to the closest station, and not use it?)

No.

The relevant obligations are:

• (snip)
• To quit the carriage one is in upon arrival at the point to which one's fare is paid

Reading this literally, that sounds there could be a loophole by moving to another carriage!

 

[JBuchananGB]

I recently travelled from Wigan to London Victoria and back. I bought tickets at Wigan NW ticket office valid to London Euston, then use contactless for the Victoria Line. The tickets were on paper roll. If I had asked for tickets to London Zone 1, would the ticket office have issued credit card sized tickets to use on the tube?

 

[nw1]

There is no legally defined firm answer to the question, but an officer of the railway would be within their rights to ask you to leave as you no longer have any valid reason to be on the station. At some point you would be in breach of the Railway Byelaws around loitering on the railway.

(remaining on the station after arrival, with a valid ticket)

So is using the station for rail enthusiast purposes - even with a valid ticket - strictly speaking a breach of the Byelaws?

Does it help if you still have a valid return ticket (which would normally be the case in a scenario where you travel by train to reach your station of interest)? Could you be threatened with prosecution, technically, if you refused to board the first available train home?

If so, could you get around it by buying an Advance ticket for 8 hours later (which would not be valid on any earlier train)? Could you be told, in that case, to leave the station if you are on the platform too far in advance of the departure?

 

[KirkstallOne]

Of course if platform tickets still existed (I don't think they do?)

Yes they do, I got one at Leeds recently to help my partner and child onto a train.

 

[Haywain]

Whatever rules are in place are always going to have to take on board the way people can do things.

Alternatively, and where there are laws to govern it, people will have to take on board the rules/laws that are in place and adapt the way they do things accordingly.

 

[nw1]

Yes they do, I got one at Leeds recently to help my partner and child onto a train.

Ah ok, thanks. For some reason I thought they were withdrawn years ago, around the time of privatisation.