Is it possible to use a day rover / combination of day rovers to make these journeys?

[NightatLaira]

Is it possible to use a day rover / combination of day rovers to make these journeys cheaper than the single journey alternatives?

HUDDERSFIELD - MALTON then...
MALTON - SCARBOROUGH then...
SCARBOROUGH - HULL then...
HULL back to HUDDERSFIELD

All in one day. Other useful information - 2 travellers one with a Young Persons - the other with an Adult Disabled Rail Card.

Any help or information would be appreciated!

 

[ainsworth74]

You might find the East Yorkshire Round Robin useful, valid in one direction between York, Scarborough, Hull, Selby and back to York again (but of course you could just travel to Selby then get a Selby to Huddersfield ticket).

Details here.

 

[Lampshade]

The problem you'll have then is the tickets between the boundary stations (Greenfield - Marsden springs to mind) cost a fortune per mile.

 

[John @ home]

There is a £19 (Railcard £12.55) East Yorkshire Round Robin ticket, which is valid for unlimited travel on one day (M-F: not before 0845) York - Scarborough - Hull - Selby - York. But the cost of getting to York and from Selby makes this an unattractive option for you.

You're best with an Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) Huddersfield - Filey which costs £28.70 (Railcard £18.95), is valid from 0930 M-F, allows travel via Hull or Scarborough as you choose, and permits as many breaks of journey as you like.

If you need to travel before 0930 on a weekday, or to see the calculation which shows validity via either Hull or Scarborough, just ask.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

The problem you'll have then is the tickets between the boundary stations (Greenfield - Marsden springs to mind) cost a fortune per mile.

The boundary for the WYPTE dayrover is at the boundary not Marsden.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

The boundary for the WYPTE dayrover is at the boundary not Marsden.

But as we have ascertained before (I Think) the Greater Manchester border is the last station. Greenfield, Littleborough et al.

 

[NightatLaira]

There is a £19 (Railcard £12.55) East Yorkshire Round Robin ticket, which is valid for unlimited travel on one day (M-F: not before 0845) York - Scarborough - Hull - Selby - York. But the cost of getting to York and from Selby makes this an unattractive option for you.

You're best with an Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) Huddersfield - Filey which costs £28.70 (Railcard £18.95), is valid from 0930 M-F, allows travel via Hull or Scarborough as you choose, and permits as many breaks of journey as you like.

If you need to travel before 0930 on a weekday, or to see the calculation which shows validity via either Hull or Scarborough, just ask.

Thanks for this! I think it's what I'll do. i will bear in mind the round robins for future use however...

 

[CompactDstrxion]

A quick check shows the same on the Manchester side

So by both PTE's published documents their ticket boundaries do in fact meet.

 

[scrapy]

It's the only way they can show it diagramatically. If they put either Marsden or Greenfield on the boundary it would show the station to be in both countys which isn't the case.

It clearly shows that the last station in W Yorks Marsden and the 1st in Gtr Manchester is Greenfield. There is obviously a boundary in between but these tickets are not valid right to the boundary unless one is a season ticket.

From National Rail Conditions of Carriage

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train
without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire
journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the
tickets was valid.

There is no station where both tickets are valid therefore you cannot complete the journey without paying between Greenfield and Marsden.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A quick check shows the same on the Manchester side

So by both PTE's published documents their ticket boundaries do in fact meet.

How can you tell this?, the two maps are in different styles and fonts and not to scale

 

[Deerfold]

It's the only way they can show it diagramatically. If they put either Marsden or Greenfield on the boundary it would show the station to be in both countys which isn't the case.

And they go to some lengths to show this - unlike the borders with South Yorkshire where there *is* always a common station.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It's the only way they can show it diagramatically. If they put either Marsden or Greenfield on the boundary it would show the station to be in both countys which isn't the case.

It clearly shows that the last station in W Yorks Marsden and the 1st in Gtr Manchester is Greenfield. There is obviously a boundary in between but these tickets are not valid right to the boundary unless one is a season ticket.

From National Rail Conditions of Carriage

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).
If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train
without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire
journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the
tickets was valid.

There is no station where both tickets are valid therefore you cannot complete the journey without paying between Greenfield and Marsden.

So, by that logic, if you hold a yearly Zone R1 London Travelcard and bought a month travelcard for Zone R2356, you could only travel between zone 1 and 2 if you go via Notting Hill Gate, Earls Court, Vauxhall or Elephant & Castle, or you'd have to buy a new ticket. I don't think that is true somehow.

If Marsden and Walsden are the end of Yorkshire and Greenfield and Littleborough are the end of Manchester there is no need to extend the zones beyond those stations on those maps, there is clearly a reason that they do. I believe Yorkie is fond of saying that if there is any doubt and it went to court, they would favour the passenger.

HOWEVER, the system one website (for GMPTE travel) shows a different map for train services, one that has Greenfield and Littleborough as the last station with no lines protruding from them into Yorkshire, and without the PTE border being marked.

http://www.systemonetravelcards.co.uk/about-us/network-maps.php

If this is the map shown in the leaflets, there is no longer any doubt that another ticket would indeed be needed.

 

[scrapy]

So, by that logic, if you hold a yearly Zone R1 London Travelcard and bought a month travelcard for Zone R2356, you could only travel between zone 1 and 2 if you go via Notting Hill Gate, Earls Court, Vauxhall or Elephant & Castle, or you'd have to buy a new ticket. I don't think that is true somehow.

No because these are both zonal tickets (see exclusion a)

 

[tony_mac]

No because these are both zonal tickets (see exclusion a)

So are the West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester tickets mentioned earlier (according to the definition of zonal).

I think that it is obviously meant to apply to zones within an area (such as the numbered London zones), but has been written so loosely that it doesn't clearly exclude using two adjacent areas (such as WY / GM / Merseyside).

Additionally, the WY and GMPTE boundaries do meet between Marsden and Greenfield if you take the bus (both list the Great Western Inn on the A62 as a boundary point).

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Who knows what it is meant to mean? As far as I'm concerned a WYPTE rover is a ticket for unlimited travel within the WYPTE ticketing zone and likewise for the GMPTE rover. Therefore these are 'zonal tickets.' The diagrams on both PTE's websites confirm the ticketing zone boundaries are not at the last stations within the PTE area. Otherwise the line would be through Marsden for WYPTE and Greenfield for GMPTE. The only logical deduction from their diagrams is that the boundary is shared, this is far more probable than a tiny section of railway no-man's land. Not to mention this is the interpretation most favourable to the consumer which is used where there can be more than one interpretation.

 

[scrapy]

Rovers are not zonal tickets. A zonal ticket will specify a particular zone number or letter.

The map which has been put on an earlier post is not however the map which GMPTE uses in its rail ranger publicity. This map is what is used and clearly shows the ticket not being valid past Greenfield:-

http://www.gmpte.com/upload/library/09-1230_Rail_Ranger_Leaflet.pdf

Also from the WYPTE websote regarding cross boundary travel.

Cross boundary travel by train
Train travel outside West Yorkshire will be
charged at full fare. If you want to travel
to/from points outside West Yorkshire on the
train you must ask to pay the additional fare
at the start of the journey (at the ticket office
if your journey starts at a staffed station).
This will be the full adult fare for the non-
West Yorkshire section of your journey (unless
you show entitlement to reduced fare or a
valid ticket for that section when paying).
If you do not pay the combined fares at the
start of the journey, you will be charged the
full adult fare for the entire journey.
Please note that on trains, fares may be
combined only to and from a station at which
your train makes a scheduled stop.
Where a passenger holds two or more zonal
tickets in combination or one is a rail season
ticket and one is not, then the train does not
need to call at the station where they change
from one ticket to the other. Please note that
these combinations of tickets do not apply to
services operated by CrossCountry, East
Midlands Trains or East Coast.
This leaflet replaces leaflet CB-08

It seems quite clear from both these publications they are not valid to be combined, so there seems little to interpret.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Rovers are not zonal tickets. A zonal ticket will specify a particular zone number or letter.

The map which has been put on an earlier post is not however the map which GMPTE uses in its rail ranger publicity. This map is what is used and clearly shows the ticket not being valid past Greenfield:-

http://www.gmpte.com/upload/library/09-1230_Rail_Ranger_Leaflet.pdf

Also from the WYPTE websote regarding cross boundary travel.

Cross boundary travel by train
Train travel outside West Yorkshire will be
charged at full fare. If you want to travel
to/from points outside West Yorkshire on the
train you must ask to pay the additional fare
at the start of the journey (at the ticket office
if your journey starts at a staffed station).
This will be the full adult fare for the non-
West Yorkshire section of your journey (unless
you show entitlement to reduced fare or a
valid ticket for that section when paying).
If you do not pay the combined fares at the
start of the journey, you will be charged the
full adult fare for the entire journey.
Please note that on trains, fares may be
combined only to and from a station at which
your train makes a scheduled stop.
Where a passenger holds two or more zonal
tickets in combination or one is a rail season
ticket and one is not, then the train does not
need to call at the station where they change
from one ticket to the other. Please note that
these combinations of tickets do not apply to
services operated by CrossCountry, East
Midlands Trains or East Coast.
This leaflet replaces leaflet CB-08

Exceptions to this (as I mentioned before on a different thread) are the shared stations of Darton, Sth Elmsall and Moorthorpe which allow seamless rail travel between the WYPTE and SYPTE areas using the day rover/rangers.

 

[tony_mac]

Rovers are not zonal tickets. A zonal ticket will specify a particular zone number or letter.

I believe that is the intention (and sensible) - however there is a definition given in the conditions of carriage.

“Zonal Tickets” are those tickets which permit travel only within a defined area.

Which makes it clear that Rovers are zonal tickets.

 

[scrapy]

It 's a poor definition but it is in the NRCOC so I will accept that by that definition all rail tickets are zonal tickets including singles and returns as they are valid within a specific area (between specified two stations). However the GMPTE publicity for day rangers still shows the ticket to not be valid past Greenfield.

 

[tony_mac]

It 's a poor definition but it is in the NRCOC so I will accept that by that definition all rail tickets are zonal tickets including singles and returns as they are valid within a specific area (between specified two stations)

You can believe that if it makes you feel better.

However the GMPTE publicity for day rangers still shows the ticket to not be valid past Greenfield.

Some of it does, some of it doesn't.
If you look at the information on the National Rail website (the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services) it shows the boundary extending beyond the station.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I've had a look at the Metro cross-boundary travel leaflet and it also lists all rail services in West Yorkshire and says that Metro ticket conditions apply to Huddersfield - Marsden, for example, for the Huddersfield-Marsden-Manchester Victoria service. Which contradicts the maps which show the rail zones extending beyond the stations.

The GMPTE rail ranger map also contradicts the map showing the ticketing boundaries, as you say.