Is it time to relax the 2m social distancing guideline? (WHO guidance is 1m)

[Enthusiast]

the 2m guideline is not actually a rule;

Indeed it's not. So why don't some of the businesses who believe they will be crippled if they adhere to such guidance simply say "We note the guidance but we will not be complying. We'll inform our customers and they can decide whether to patronise us or not"?

 

[MattA7]

Indeed it's not. So why don't some of the businesses who believe they will be crippled if they adhere to such guidance simply say "We note the guidance but we will not be complying. We'll inform our customers and they can decide whether to patronise us or not"?

because the U.K. is a nanny state where personal responsibility is a thing of the past. We are not allowed to use our own judgment we must do what Boris (or Sturgeon for us in Scotland) thinks is best for us

 

[_toommm_]

But I accept the point that the 2m guidance is increasingly being shown to be ridiculous.

To be frank, I got sick of it about a week after working in 'lockdown', as did most of my similarly-aged colleagues. As you say, it's impractical, and at this point, I'd wager it's counter-intuitive.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed it's not. So why don't some of the businesses who believe they will be crippled if they adhere to such guidance simply say "We note the guidance but we will not be complying. We'll inform our customers and they can decide whether to patronise us or not"?

Not really; while there is nothing in law that states individuals should practise social distancing, it's a different matter for a business/organisation.

I can't really describe the negative emotions I felt when I read our risk assessment for getting more people back in the building (that's not a criticism of my employer; on the contrary they are doing a fantastic job under ludicrously challenging circumstances)

 

[Huntergreed]

The way I see it, it's quite literally now or never. In my opinion, for the sake of preventing potential economic collapse, the following things must happen within a month:

• Official guidance for businesses reduced from 2m to 1m (for the meantime) to allow for the reopening of the economy to be much more practicable and sustainable for many businesses, and an announcement within the next week would be ideal to allow businesses to prepare for a 4th July reopening under 1m distancing.
• Social distancing on public transport needs to be scrapped . The mask rule should stay for now, for both psychological (people will feel safer) and political (they'll be seen to keep people safe) but there's no real viable way to reopen the economy when there's any form of social distancing in place whatsoever on public transport, and this must go within a month if we aim to open the tourism/leisure industries or this is simply a pointless exercise.
• There needs to be a change in messaging from 'go within 1.99m of someone and you'll kill their parents' to something much more sensible, for instance 'respect personal space but get Britain moving again', otherwise the population will remain in a state of paranoia and fear so much that the economic consequences of this will be drastic.

Ideally, these would be put in place for 4th July, and announced much sooner to allow businesses to prepare for this.

Simply put: If other countries can manage, we can too. We don't have a different disease which requires different precautions, and quite frankly the economic crisis we're beginning to see the effects of warrants just as much if not more attention than the virus which has now passed the peak over two months ago.

 

[Bantamzen]

because the U.K. is a nanny state where personal responsibility is a thing of the past. We are not allowed to use our own judgment we must do what Boris (or Sturgeon for us in Scotland) thinks is best for us

Oh its worse than that. We also have people who seem to live for officialdom & enjoy imposing themselves on other people. We've seen in recently in some of the over the top responses from some Police officers, but more often we see in the public sector (I see this a lot through my own work where it often manifests in under the guise of "security" or "Health & Safety"), council committees, local parish councils, even amateur theatre. Some folk in this country feed off of petty rules, regulations and ideas. And they are having a ball thinking of ways to impose a strict 2 metre rule, even though it is not a rule, caveated by the phrase "wherever possible". But that hasn't stopped some wild & weird methods of imposing this being dreamed up, as discussed over and over on these many threads.

 

[nedchester]

The way I see it, it's quite literally now or never. In my opinion, for the sake of preventing potential economic collapse, the following things must happen within a month:

• Official guidance for businesses reduced from 2m to 1m (for the meantime) to allow for the reopening of the economy to be much more practicable and sustainable for many businesses, and an announcement within the next week would be ideal to allow businesses to prepare for a 4th July reopening under 1m distancing.
• Social distancing on public transport needs to be scrapped . The mask rule should stay for now, for both psychological (people will feel safer) and political (they'll be seen to keep people safe) but there's no real viable way to reopen the economy when there's any form of social distancing in place whatsoever on public transport, and this must go within a month if we aim to open the tourism/leisure industries or this is simply a pointless exercise.
• There needs to be a change in messaging from 'go within 1.99m of someone and you'll kill their parents' to something much more sensible, for instance 'respect personal space but get Britain moving again', otherwise the population will remain in a state of paranoia and fear so much that the economic consequences of this will be drastic.

Ideally, these would be put in place for 4th July, and announced much sooner to allow businesses to prepare for this.

Simply put: If other countries can manage, we can too. We don't have a different disease which requires different precautions, and quite frankly the economic crisis we're beginning to see the effects of warrants just as much if not more attention than the virus which has now passed the peak over two months ago.

Completely agree. To do that is so easy to do that it's a no brainer. Of course, the finger pointers will talk about the science of 1m v 2m and the potential increase in infection but France has 1m and hasn't seen an upturn in infections.

 

[Freightmaster]

Oh its worse than that. We also have people who seem to live for officialdom & enjoy imposing themselves on other people. We've seen in recently in some of the over the top responses from some Police officers, but more often we see in the public sector (I see this a lot through my own work where it often manifests in under the guise of "security" or "Health & Safety"), council committees, local parish councils, even amateur theatre. Some folk in this country feed off of petty rules, regulations and ideas. And they are having a ball

I wish they could bring back "That's Life" - it's mix of emotional/heartwarming stories and bizarre humour
would be a perfect antidote for these strange times, especially their infamous 'Jobsworth' award!




MARK

 

[Bantamzen]

I wish they could bring back "That's Life" - it's mix of emotional/heartwarming stories and bizarre humour
would be a perfect antidote for these strange times, especially their infamous 'Jobsworth' award!




MARK

Oh that show would have so many nominations, I could offer them dozens myself!

 

[Skymonster]

Most people are not keeping 2 meters apart when walking in local park (with paths) or in the street.

Indeed, based on recent experiences it seems to me that many people have no idea what 2m is. Best solution now would be something most people could actually understand - not 1m, but instead something like "at least an arm's length away from..."

Sadly I fear Boris is still listening too much to the likes of dim-Whitty, who according to The Mirror is advocating no let up in the distancing rules.

 

[thejuggler]

I've just had reason to visit an office for te first time since March and if for the foresseable future 2m distancing is the norm there is no way I could work in there.

I estimate the floor I was on had 70 desks. Every one had a use or don't use sticker, signs everywhere about what you can and can't do. There were about 8 people on the floor and even with those few it wasn't easy to avoid being less than 2m from someone else as they needed to use printers, filing systems, storage units, toilets, kitchen etc which means walking around.

I'm glad I can work at home rather than try and operate in those conditions.

 

[BJames]

I've mentioned this article (https://www.theguardian.com/busines...sting-uk-taxpayer-100-per-journey-in-lockdown) in another thread but there's an important part that's relevant here:

The industry calculates that a 1-metre separation would allow trains to run at 45% capacity, rather than the current maximum of 20%.

If we're not going to drop social distancing on trains yet, we need to at the very least get it down to 1 metre to allow more people to travel more freely, and this really should happen at the latest with the next easing of restrictions.

 

[Huntergreed]

I've mentioned this article (https://www.theguardian.com/busines...sting-uk-taxpayer-100-per-journey-in-lockdown) in another thread but there's an important part that's relevant here:


If we're not going to drop social distancing on trains yet, we need to at the very least get it down to 1 metre to allow more people to travel more freely, and this really should happen at the latest with the next easing of restrictions.

Continuing this subsidisation for months, let alone years like the government are planning, is simply not sustainable, or fair on the public.

We cannot as a nation discriminate between car users and non car users as we try to reopen the leisure and tourism sectors, doing so would be disastrous for the economy and the mental wellbeing of this country.

With the next relaxation, I believe that we should allow anyone onboard a train provided there's a seat for them so this means trains can run at full capacity, bar standing passengers. This would be much more sustainable, fair, and still ensure that each individual passenger only came into contact with a small number of others. And it would certainly be easier than enforced 1 or 2 metre distancing. Perhaps, for the meantime, issue a compulsory seat reservation with every ticket (although I realise this wouldn't work with walk up fares, not sure the best way to do this?)

 

[northernchris]

I've just had reason to visit an office for te first time since March and if for the foresseable future 2m distancing is the norm there is no way I could work in there.

I estimate the floor I was on had 70 desks. Every one had a use or don't use sticker, signs everywhere about what you can and can't do. There were about 8 people on the floor and even with those few it wasn't easy to avoid being less than 2m from someone else as they needed to use printers, filing systems, storage units, toilets, kitchen etc which means walking around.

I'm glad I can work at home rather than try and operate in those conditions.

I've also not been in the office since March, and we had an email recently saying our badges are now inactive as the number of people allowed in is limited. They have introduced a one way system with a dedicated entrance and exit for each 'zone'. They are also in the process of putting plastic screens around each desk at either side and along the divider to separate those facing too. Fun times ahead!

 

[BJames]

Continuing this subsidisation for months, let alone years like the government are planning, is simply not sustainable, or fair on the public.

We cannot as a nation discriminate between car users and non car users as we try to reopen the leisure and tourism sectors, doing so would be disastrous for the economy and the mental wellbeing of this country.

With the next relaxation, I believe that we should allow anyone onboard a train provided there's a seat for them so this means trains can run at full capacity, bar standing passengers. This would be much more sustainable, fair, and still ensure that each individual passenger only came into contact with a small number of others. And it would certainly be easier than enforced 1 or 2 metre distancing. Perhaps, for the meantime, issue a compulsory seat reservation with every ticket (although I realise this wouldn't work with walk up fares, not sure the best way to do this?)

Counted places, reservations through text perhaps? Issue one with the walk up fares? Although I'm not sure necessarily whether this is possible or how feasible any of this is. I do agree though this is the logical next step.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly I fear Boris is still listening too much to the likes of dim-Whitty, who according to The Mirror is advocating no let up in the distancing rules.

I think that's really, really unfair. He's an expert and a professional. He will, however (and should, because that's what he's being paid to do) advise what is best in terms of the medical science, which pretty much by definition is going to be to minimise deaths, which is what 2m will do because it is safer than 1m, and to deny that is foolish.

What Boris needs to do is ask for advice on all 4 options (1m, 1.5m, 2m and not bothering at all), and to offset that advice against economic impact, and be honest enough to say to people something like "we would save the most lives from the virus with 2m distancing, but 1m distancing risks only a small number of additional deaths. As a collapsed economy could kill thousands due to starvation and suicide as businesses fail, COBR has made the decision that social distancing will be reduced to 1m with immediate effect, allowing the reopening of many hospitality businesses. We would however ask that if 2m distancing is possible, for example in outdoor queues, that you do still do your utmost to maintain this. In situations where even 1m is impossible, please ensure you wear a mask at all times."

However I am not convinced he has the guts for that sort of honesty and professionalism.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Counted places, reservations through text perhaps? Issue one with the walk up fares? Although I'm not sure necessarily whether this is possible or how feasible any of this is. I do agree though this is the logical next step.

That's what Avanti and LNER are doing, and I think GWR on the 80x services. There's a thread on it somewhere.

 

[johnnychips]

Oh its worse than that. We also have people who seem to live for officialdom & enjoy imposing themselves on other people. We've seen in recently in some of the over the top responses from some Police officers, but more often we see in the public sector (I see this a lot through my own work where it often manifests in under the guise of "security" or "Health & Safety"), council committees, local parish councils, even amateur theatre. Some folk in this country feed off of petty rules, regulations and ideas. And they are having a ball thinking of ways to impose a strict 2 metre rule, even though it is not a rule, caveated by the phrase "wherever possible". But that hasn't stopped some wild & weird methods of imposing this being dreamed up, as discussed over and over on these many threads.

I live in Sheffield, and I think @sheff1 has already alluded to bus routes being changed, presumably to stop their non-existent queues interacting with the very few queues for shops. There is a ‘lane’ marked past the pedestrianised Town Hall and down The Moor, with big yellow signs instructing you to use it to reach the shops, not to loiter in it; and mysterious crosses near pelican crossings, presumably showing you how to wait 2m behind someone. All the bus stops, in apparently all of South Yorkshire, have had their timetables removed and replaced with a pink notice about social distancing. Another sign says you must not enter Sheffield Interchange unless for the express purpose of catching a bus.

Needless to say, nobody is taking a blind bit of notice, and there is nobody to enforce it anyway. The good people of Sheffield seem to have taken on the message that outdoor spread of CV is very low risk.

 

[Gadget88]

So good enough for Ireland but not England and Scotland it seems.

 

[yorkie]

Coronavirus: UK's Covid-19 alert level reduced from four to three

The virus is now "in general circulation" with a "gradual relaxation of restrictions" possible.

www.bbc.co.uk

The UK's coronavirus alert level has been downgraded from four to three, its chief medical officers have said.

Under level three, the virus is considered to be "in general circulation" and there could be a "gradual relaxation of restrictions".

This paves the way for social distancing to be reduced from 2m to 1m; the article goes on to state:

Moving to alert level three signals there could be a "gradual relaxing of restrictions and social distancing measures", according to the government's original plan.

A review is also currently taking place into reducing social distancing guidance from 2m (6ft 6) to 1m (3ft 3).

It is understood the review will aim to report back by 4 July, the earliest date that pubs and restaurants can open in England.

Note the due date is "by 4 July" but pubs and restaurants can't open without it so I hope the review will be available much earlier, to allow them time to prepare.

Make no mistake, it has to reduce to 1m and it has to happen urgently. No other possibility is remotely viable or acceptable.

Edit: for discussion on the change of alert level, see the following thread:

UK Covid alert level reduced to 3

It has just been announced that the UK (just England? but the news story says UK) has just moved from alert level 4 to alert level 3. Alert level 3 has the comment "social distancing relaxed" so I'm hoping this means 1m rather than 2m. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53106673 The UK's...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Class 33]

Boris Johnson hints that 2 metre social distancing in SCHOOLS could be cut to 1 metre. https://news.sky.com/story/boris-jo...l-distancing-in-schools-could-be-cut-12010396

The prime minister has hinted social distancing rules in schools could be relaxed, as he told people to "watch this space".

Boris Johnson insisted he was "sure" all children can be back in the classroom five days a week from September.

Asked about calls from some Conservatives to cut the recommended two metre gap to one metre to help more pupils join lessons, he said: "We will be putting in further changes as the science allows."

But we need the 2 metres to be cut to 1 metre (before being scrapped altogether within the next few months) all over the UK, Boris. Not just in schools!

 

[yorkie]

Boris Johnson hints that 2 metre social distancing in SCHOOLS could be cut to 1 metre. https://news.sky.com/story/boris-jo...l-distancing-in-schools-could-be-cut-12010396

But we need the 2 metres to be cut to 1 metre (before being scrapped altogether within the next few months) all over the UK, Boris. Not just in schools!

I agree. This is not good enough. It needs to be 1m from (at least) 6th July everywhere.

The fact we won't be doing 2m social distancing in schools from September is obvious; we need far more change than this.

 

[Class 33]

To expand on my previous posting above....

I WAS beginning to feel more confident that come 4th July that the government would have given the go ahead for social distancing to at least be reduced to 1 metre everywhere in the UK, to coincide with the restarting of the hospitality, travel and leisure industry and to further help the economy getting back to normal. But after reading this news this morning about Boris hinting that social distancing will be cut to 1 metre for SCHOOLS in September, I could not believe it, and am not so confident about this now. It will be absolutely ridiculous and catastrophic for the UK economy if by September we've still got this 2 metre social distancing guidelines nonsense in force, except for schools! What an absolute joke this will be if this turns out to be the case. Here in Bristol, I've read that already a number of bars, restaurants, shops have had to close permanently due to this ongoing lockdown and social distancing. The latest I've read is that a gym chain have had to close one of their Bristol branches. And I fear if social distancing isn't reduced to 1 metre and ultimately scrapped altogether very soon, then there will be many more bars, restaurants, shops, gyms, etc to close down, not just in Bristol but all over the UK. For many businesses, it won't be financially viable for them to operate with 1 metre social distancing measures, let alone 2 metres! The government don't appear to be very worried about this. And I am beginning to feel now that they're going to keep social distancing going until a vaccine is found, and this could be well into next year at the earliest!

 

[Mag_seven]

Boris Johnson hints that 2 metre social distancing in SCHOOLS could be cut to 1 metre. https://news.sky.com/story/boris-jo...l-distancing-in-schools-could-be-cut-12010396

But we need the 2 metres to be cut to 1 metre (before being scrapped altogether within the next few months) all over the UK, Boris. Not just in schools!

I'm not reading the above as 2m to 1m in schools only. He was talking about schools at the time so if there is a relaxing to 1m everywhere then by default it will include schools as well so I suspect he might have been preempting any arguments about 1m everywhere expect schools. I hope I am right though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having thought more I'd go with keep it at 2m except where it's infeasible, e.g. pubs and restaurants. 1m in those places, nothing on public transport but face coverings must be worn. That would have less effect on the figures than a blanket relaxation.

 

[Huntergreed]

Having thought more I'd go with keep it at 2m except where it's infeasible, e.g. pubs and restaurants. 1m in those places, nothing on public transport but face coverings must be worn. That would have less effect on the figures than a blanket relaxation.

Where it's 'infeasible' is entirely subjective so in terms of the virus is meaningless. Of course a reduction down to 1m is going to cause a slightly higher rate of transmission, but many European countries seem to be managing this without overwhelming their health boards, and we are going to need to accept some level of background transmission until either a vaccine or natural herd immunity is achieved. 1m have a very positive impact on the economy, mental and social wellbeing, and many businesses, and I would argue that this mitigates the 'what if cases start to rise again' argument which many tend to, as it's been proven in other European countries that 1m can be rolled out nationally without causing cases to start rising again, as we are going to have to accept that the opportunity to eliminate this virus is long gone, and we are going to simply have to ease up and accept there will be background transmission sooner or later.

 

[Mugby]

I think that's really, really unfair. He's an expert and a professional. He will, however (and should, because that's what he's being paid to do) advise what is best in terms of the medical science, which pretty much by definition is going to be to minimise deaths, which is what 2m will do because it is safer than 1m, and to deny that is foolish.

Just because Whitty is 'an expert' doesn't mean he's always right. The various 'experts' I've seen on the daily briefings always take the worst case scenario as their default position. They may be eminent in their respective professions but they're not exactly worldly wise when it comes to human nature or the governance of a nation.

Medical science is in a constant state of debate, it's not an exact science. You say that 2 metres will minimise deaths because it's safer than 1 metre, how do you know this? Are you a viral scientist or are you just repeating something you've heard?

 

[Huntergreed]

Just because Whitty is 'an expert' doesn't mean he's always right. The various 'experts' I've seen on the daily briefings always take the worst case scenario as their default position. They may be eminent in their respective professions but they're not exactly worldly wise when it comes to human nature or the governance of a nation.

Medical science is in a constant state of debate, it's not an exact science. You say that 2 metres will minimise deaths because it's safer than 1 metre, how do you know this? Are you a viral scientist or are you just repeating something you've heard?

Whitty is trained (very well) in medical science. That means that he’s trained and paid to analyse a situation from a medical/epidemiological perspective, without considering the impact of his advice on the economy or other factors, which is the job of ministers on the cabinet.
Of course 2m is safer than 1m, that’s just common sense, but Whitty will of course advise this as he won’t need to consider the impact that this is having economically, and I think it’s time that the cabinet stopped listening exclusively to him and started to take a more rational, balanced approach.

 

[Mugby]

Whitty is trained (very well) in medical science. That means that he’s trained and paid to analyse a situation from a medical/epidemiological perspective, without considering the impact of his advice on the economy or other factors, which is the job of ministers on the cabinet.
Of course 2m is safer than 1m, that’s just common sense, but Whitty will of course advise this as he won’t need to consider the impact that this is having economically, and I think it’s time that the cabinet stopped listening exclusively to him and started to take a more rational, balanced approach.

You could say the same about Professor Neil Ferguson, that he is trained very well in medical science but it didn't stop him making the stupid and absurd prediction that half a million people in Britain would die - and was then caught breaching the rules he was advocating.
I repeat, just because they're experts doesn't necessarily mean they're infallible.

 

[Starmill]

The polled options aren't broad enough unfortunately. The 2m guidelines should remain, in all settings, until the virus is controlled by effective mass testing and contact tracing. This should have been in planning in late January (the Lancet article on 24 Jan would have been the starting gun) and deployed in March or early April, and refined and at full scale by now.

The performance of the government is so appalling, among the worst in the rich world, that this process is unlikely to be complete by the end of the summer. So an option for more than several months further but short of quasi-indefintiely would be more accurate.

I had to select option 5 as the closest, but it's far from my view.