Is it usual for a signal or points failure to take five or more days to fix?

[AdamWW]

The Coryton branch in Cardiff has been out of action since lunchtime on Monday due to either a points or signal failure. (TfW don't seem too sure themselves. Today it's an "unexpected signal failure" on their web site. But by now I'm sure it's expected to most passengers).

Is it usual for something like this to take so long to repair?

And - if so - is it usual for the railway just to announce each day's closure on the day without providing any information directly to passengers or to their Twitter team about why it's taking so long and when they realistically expect services to resume?

The impression it gives is to me that they aren't bothering to do anything about it which is almost certainly not true. (Though it does make me start to wonder about whether vertical integration with presumably no need to pay compensation to operators for such things might cause a different way of thinking...)

 

[The Planner]

Depends on if its a bespoke piece of pointwork sometimes, not everything is an off the shelf replacement.

 

[alf]

Brockenhurst up main platform was closed for at least a month recently & all up trains diverted to up relief platform with 20 mph approach controlled entry. Said to be signalling problem.

And famously all up fasts had to dribble through Basingstoke enduring 30, 50 & then 30 again temp speed restrictions. This lasted for many years! The crossovers from the Reading line were
replaced a couple if months ago & we are back to an exciting 85 mph on the up fast.. as it used to be in steam times & even Railtrack days,
What’s the betting it will be down to 30 mph again soon for the expresses from Weymouth ?
So I regard every 85 mph whoosh through Basingstoke as a bonus.

 

[Annetts key]

Actually, because the signalling system is very complex, failures can take very variable amounts of time to fix. Especially if a replacement part is not available.

Points failures can either be a failure of the associated signalling equipment, or the physical permanent way (track, including but not limited to rails, sleepers, fixings, formation {including ballast}) and this also includes problems due to steel expanding due to hot weather.

Both signals and points can also be affected by track circuit or axle counter failures. With track circuits, these rely on the condition of the permanent way being good. During hot weather, rails expanding can compromise insulated rail joints ((IRJ), causing the relevant track circuit to show occupied even though there is no train present.

 

[AdamWW]

Thanks for the responses.

I appreciate that there are reasons that it might not be possible for a quick repair and it's interesting in seeing some detail.

But....when looking up disruption on the National Rail web site I often get distracted by what is going wrong elsewhere in the country, and I don't recall seeing an entire branch line (albeit quite a short one in this case) shut down for the best part of a week like this.

Then again if, as TfW are doing here, they are reporting each day as if it were a completely separate incident perhaps I wouldn't have noticed. Or perhaps I've just forgotten.

It's always easier to criticise than actually do things, but it seems rather disappointing to me that TfW are unwilling or unable to provide any explanation about what's going on or give an indication of how long they expect it to continue.

Perhaps someone involved in this side of things in the industry can explain why TfW are being reasonable in being so uninformative?

 

[Annetts key]

It’s not on an area that I have much knowledge of.

But on the Western, typically there are usually a number of points or crossovers that are out of use for one position for weeks to months. The vast majority are not noticed by the passengers because there are alternate points/crossovers or alternative routes.

Sometimes the delay is not needing parts, but waiting for a suitable engineering occupation.

The lead time for some parts, be it signalling equipment or custom point work, can be between several weeks and several months. Or sometimes even longer, as much as six months.

And yes, some of this is for relatively modern equipment.

 

[AdamWW]

It’s not on an area that I have much knowledge of.

But on the Western, typically there are usually a number of points or crossovers that are out of use for one position for weeks to months. The vast majority are not noticed by the passengers because there are alternate points/crossovers or alternative routes.

Sometimes the delay is not needing parts, but waiting for a suitable engineering occupation.

The lead time for some parts, be it signalling equipment or custom point work, can be between several weeks and several months. Or sometimes even longer, as much as six months.

And yes, some of this is for relatively modern equipment.

Interesting.

It's not that long since this area was resignalled, I think.

The entire network shuts down at around 8 pm Monday to Thursday these days so that might give them a chance to do the work if they can.

Ah and indeed they are now saying that they are waiting for parts.

Unfortunately they are unable to give an estimate for when they will be available.

 

[High Dyke]

Interesting.

It's not that long since this area was resignalled, I think.

The entire network shuts down at around 8 pm Monday to Thursday these days so that might give them a chance to do the work if they can.

Ah and indeed they are now saying that they are waiting for parts.

Unfortunately they are unable to give an estimate for when they will be available.

That could be the case. Last year a colleague of mine was involved in a points run through incident. For my own part I was also sucked into the same incident. It took 6 months to obtain replacement parts and have them restored to order. As previously mentioned some repairs aren't always straightforward.

 

[AdamWW]

That could be the case. Last year a colleague of mine was involved in a points run through incident. For my own part I was also sucked into the same incident. It took 6 months to obtain replacement parts and have them restored to order. As previously mentioned some repairs aren't always straightforward.

Not an encouraging thought for anyone who uses the line.

The good news for TfW is that they don't have to provide rail replacement buses.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

The points for P10 at Crewe have been broken for the best part of a year.

 

[AdamWW]

The points for P10 at Crewe have been broken for the best part of a year.

I hope that hasn't left 5 (or strictly speaking 6) stations with no service for all that time...

 

[30907]

I hope that hasn't left 5 (or strictly speaking 6) stations with no service for all that time...

Which stations? Or am I missing your point? Like P10

 

[AdamWW]

Which stations? Or am I missing your point? Like P10

Sorry that could have been less obscure.

The Coryton branch has 6 stations and they can't be served until the offending points are sorted out.

One of the stations doesn't really count because there's a corresponding one on the main line.

And the rest of the stations are rather close together - the whole branch must be something like 2 miles long.

It isn't exactly the busiest line on the network and is normally run with 2 153's an hour. But even so...

 

[Last Hurrah]

Heath Low Level, Ty Glas, Birchgrove, Rhiwbina, Whitchurch, Coryton

 

[BrummieBobby]

The Coryton branch in Cardiff has been out of action since lunchtime on Monday due to either a points or signal failure. (TfW don't seem too sure themselves. Today it's an "unexpected signal failure" on their web site. But by now I'm sure it's expected to most passengers).

Is it usual for something like this to take so long to repair?

And - if so - is it usual for the railway just to announce each day's closure on the day without providing any information directly to passengers or to their Twitter team about why it's taking so long and when they realistically expect services to resume?

The impression it gives is to me that they aren't bothering to do anything about it which is almost certainly not true. (Though it does make me start to wonder about whether vertical integration with presumably no need to pay compensation to operators for such things might cause a different way of thinking...)

As others have stated, long delays to fix faults can be caused by a lack of parts, the degree of specialisation required in terms of parts and also if the fault is not particularly impacting the operational timetable.

For example, one of the panels I sign has several sets of points clipped & scotched (So they cannot be moved) but the location of the points (Away from the mainline) means that they can be worked around.

 

[AdamWW]

For example, one of the panels I sign has several sets of points clipped & scotched (So they cannot be moved) but the location of the points (Away from the mainline) means that they can be worked around.

There is a workaround for these points....tell everyone to use their ticket on the bus instead....

 

[Dai Corner]

There is a workaround for these points....tell everyone to use their ticket on the bus instead....

Which begs the question 'is it worth keeping the Coryton branch open?'

 

[Trestrol]

As previously mentioned its more likely the PWay that will cause a significant delay in restoration of service. The S&T side to a lesser extent where points are concerned. If I remember correctly the S&T are responsible for the stretcher bars and point operating gear on points. The PWay the rest. Most S&T equipment is easily replaceable on an overnight possession with most items readily available. It's unusual for a point machine to be damaged enough in a run through to warrant changing. Mostly the stretcher bars and drive rods. The crossing nose(big cast piece in the middle) causes the problem. If that's damaged and there's no spare available at WhiteMoor then one has to be made. With older installations more items of point work tend to be bespoke to the point and usually made by a railway blacksmith.
Newcastle Central of old was like this with barely two points the same.

 

[30907]

Sorry that could have been less obscure.

The Coryton branch has 6 stations and they can't be served until the offending points are sorted out.

Sorry, I was thinking about routes from Crewe and forgot it was originally about Coryton.

 

[Western 52]

I think this thread is relevant to the unsatisfactory situation on the Coryton branch this week. Literally a single point of failure it seems!

Single points of failure: are the UK's railways less resistant than they used to be?

It seems these days that frequent delays and cancellations are caused by factors the railway coped better with years ago. Single incidents can bring the timetable down quickly - point failures, failed trains, crew going sick last minute, etc. In recent decades we've seen reductions in...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Chris Hamilton]

Thanks for the responses.

I appreciate that there are reasons that it might not be possible for a quick repair and it's interesting in seeing some detail.

But....when looking up disruption on the National Rail web site I often get distracted by what is going wrong elsewhere in the country, and I don't recall seeing an entire branch line (albeit quite a short one in this case) shut down for the best part of a week like this.

Then again if, as TfW are doing here, they are reporting each day as if it were a completely separate incident perhaps I wouldn't have noticed. Or perhaps I've just forgotten.

It's always easier to criticise than actually do things, but it seems rather disappointing to me that TfW are unwilling or unable to provide any explanation about what's going on or give an indication of how long they expect it to continue.

Perhaps someone involved in this side of things in the industry can explain why TfW are being reasonable in being so uninformative?

I once attended a points failure (towards the end of a night shift) that closed an entire section of the West Coast Main Line in one direction for an entire day, along with a major branch in the opposing direction. A single end of points in an awkward location, that affected the routes for 3 lines.

Control took the decision that due to the potential for severe disruption if we continued working (we would have needed at least a 90 minute daytime blockade of the WCML), combined with the location meaning that WCML services could be diverted with a few minutes delay on each one, that we would just abandon ship. The points were in a state where they couldn’t even be given in a single direction, so we literally just walked away until close of traffic that following evening.

Sometimes, there are operational reasons why it’s easier to just walk away and deal with it later. Sometimes, it’s lack of spare parts. At a recent run through we exhausted our supply of parts for that type of equipment, a type which wasn’t shared with nearby depots. So when a further part was required, we had to wait for it to arrive from central stores in the Midlands. That took an entire day also. I can also think of one item of equipment we have in my section that is unique to us, for reasons known only to those in a higher pay grade. When it failed last year (not causing delays, just awkwardness for staff), the part had to be ordered from Belgium, which took over a week. Lessons were learned there and we ordered plenty of spares.

 

[AdamWW]

I once attended a points failure (towards the end of a night shift) that closed an entire section of the West Coast Main Line in one direction for an entire day, along with a major branch in the opposing direction. A single end of points in an awkward location, that affected the routes for 3 lines.

Control took the decision that due to the potential for severe disruption if we continued working (we would have needed at least a 90 minute daytime blockade of the WCML), combined with the location meaning that WCML services could be diverted with a few minutes delay on each one, that we would just abandon ship. The points were in a state where they couldn’t even be given in a single direction, so we literally just walked away until close of traffic that following evening.

Sometimes, there are operational reasons why it’s easier to just walk away and deal with it later. Sometimes, it’s lack of spare parts. At a recent run through we exhausted our supply of parts for that type of equipment, a type which wasn’t shared with nearby depots. So when a further part was required, we had to wait for it to arrive from central stores in the Midlands. That took an entire day also. I can also think of one item of equipment we have in my section that is unique to us, for reasons known only to those in a higher pay grade. When it failed last year (not causing delays, just awkwardness for staff), the part had to be ordered from Belgium, which took over a week. Lessons were learned there and we ordered plenty of spares.

Again, most informative.

At least in this case the points can be used by trains staying on the main line, otherwise the disruption would be a lot worse.

 

[greyman42]

There has been a speed restriction at Colton Junction (northbound) on the ECML for weeks.

 

[Trestrol]

Colton junction switches are (were) bespoke high speed switches. They had special rams on the clamp locks as well. Not surprised it could take a while for replacement parts.