Is passenger comfort on trains getting increasingly worse?

[Peter Mugridge]

With the class 800s little priority has been put into passenger comfort. These trains are just as bad as the 220/221 Voyagers, that people have complained about for over 15 years. In standard class few seats line up with windows some seats have no view at all. Seats are hard, there is engine vibration in diesel mode, few tables are provided and the interior is very cold and spartan looking.

Have you actually been in an 800 yet?

I have.

They are vastly better than the Voyagers, the seat to window match is far better than in most recent stock and the diesel vibration is negligible. There is nothing wrong with the interior decor either. Yes, the seats are harder than older stock - but they are not as hard as the "ironing boards" fitted to other recent stock.

The majority of the posts on the class 800 thread from people who have been on them also tend to express satisfaction with the design.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know about customer comfort getting worse but general customer service is getting worse.

Unless you board at the starting station, the train will almost certainly be full of litter when you get to your seat. That's true even when traveling in first class.

I never understand why it's so difficult for train staff to have a walk through with a bin bag inviting customers to dispose of their rubbish.

They do on VTWC. But almost every train has bins, so it's lazy, dirty passengers who are causing that problem. Put your rubbish in the bin!

 

[Bletchleyite]

BR's Mk3 and 4 seats did not always line up with windows (nor did any DMU/EMU stock from the PEP units onwards).

One noble exception - as built, the Class 158 has ALL seats aligned to the windows.

 

[Darandio]

OK, so just skim reading the OP appears to me that this is all just yet another (like we haven't got enough) thread about those rotten 800's? Oh, and it also appears they have not been on one yet?

Have I got this about right?

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I don't know about customer comfort getting worse but general customer service is getting worse.

Unless you board at the starting station, the train will almost certainly be full of litter when you get to your seat. That's true even when traveling in first class.

I never understand why it's so difficult for train staff to have a walk through with a bin bag inviting customers to dispose of their rubbish.

In my recent travels with Hull Trains and VTEC that is exactly what the staff do at least twice during the journey.

 

[Mag_seven]

One noble exception - as built, the Class 158 has ALL seats aligned to the windows.

Think the same can can said for the Class 16x series.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All the TOCs I have been on recently have had travelling cleaners, even Merseyrail.
Granted, they don't come round as often as they do on VT.
You have to admit, though, that passengers are incredibly messy.
Not helped by the lack of recycling bins at many stations (gradually improving after years of "no bins" being the policy, for security reasons).

 

[AFC440]

In my recent travels with Hull Trains and VTEC that is exactly what the staff do at least twice during the journey.

Perhaps I'm just getting unlucky then. I travel mainly at weekends and this seems very rare on most of the operators I usually travel with. Certainly seems less frequent than a year ago or so on VWCML and SWR.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One noble exception - as built, the Class 158 has ALL seats aligned to the windows.

Think the same can can said for the Class 16x series.

But you wouldn't claim either of these trains had decent leg room.
It seems to be either one thing or the other, not both at the same time (in standard anyhow).

 

[swaldman]

Seems to me that in a scenario where demand for seats exceeds supply, there's no incentive to make them more comfortable, and every incentive to pack them in. Which gives us things like the GWR high-density Mk 3s

Increasing densitiy is presumably cheaper than lengthening trains, where that's possible (looking at you, Voyagers). I do wonder why some slower routes (e.g. much of Scotland) don't lose market share to coaches, where you often pay less for more room.

I remember my surprise and pleasure at riding on a TGV and finding sufficient "airline-style" seat pitch to open and comfortably use a laptop... same on Shinkansen services (although those have a price to match)

 

[LLivery]

Me being 6'1" I must say legroom has got better on most trains. I'm also glad seats have got higher. Sitting on a 3xx unit in an "airline style seat" is very uncomfortable for me beyond a few minutes. I never understood the hate for MK4s - I've never done a 4 hour journey on them (will be soon) but from shorter journeys I like them.

Now with the 800s I've not been on one as of yet. I'm quite lost at the idea that 5 car sets are a good idea on the Great Western, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is the reason there isn't a buffet on the 5 car but there will be on the 8 car? The seats don't look very comfortable but everyone has a different opinion on this issue and I've heard this is a case of looks can be deceiving. That's why there are thousands of sofas and mattresses on sale - we all feel comfort differently. The one thing which I know will be annoying is the blinds, they should've made curtains instead. I'm looking forward to trying out the 800s and MK5s.

I always see complaints about 700s seats but I don't mind them at all (apart from legroom), my problem is with the 378 seats - might as well be plastic. I agree on the austerity notion, though I believe rail operators should've never been allowed to rebrand, repaint and re-sign every bloody station whenever there is a new contract (or when they felt like it) - the cost of all of that since the end of BR must be astronomical.

 

[LLivery]

Perhaps I'm just getting unlucky then. I travel mainly at weekends and this seems very rare on most of the operators I usually travel with. Certainly seems less frequent than a year ago or so on VWCML and SWR.

They do it towards the end of most journeys on EMT InterCity services too. I thought it was just the norm on all InterCity services now.

 

[313103]

On the rare occasion i have had to travel long distance i travelled on Cross country from Bristol Parkway and Sheffield and cleaners came through at least twice on that part of the journey. Also recently i travelled from Port Talbot to Chester and the ATW cleaners were evident between Cardiff and Newport and between Shrewsbury and Chester. Also the class 175 suffer from the same toilet smell as the voyagers do, so if your forced to stand in the vestibule of one of these units be prepared to put up with the smell.

As for the 800 ride quality i couldn't comment as i have not been on one. I have been told by someone who has that the seats are hard compared to a HST and that sitting on them for a length of time might cause numbness in your posterior. However i will reserve judgement until i have to travel on them.

 

[route:oxford]

Passenger comfort on trains is just getting better and better.

Just think of all the things we no longer have:-

Rape compartments on the commuter lines into London with no access to lavatories
Awful shoulder height "wings" on seats on Cross Country services
3+2 bus style seating with no arm-rests
Backrests that barely reach the sternum
Manual doors (internal and external)
Misted-up windows
Smoking carriages
Water pishing through open windows
Long gangways, dripping with water, between carriages that you can see through.
Carriages stinking of exhaust fumes on elderly DMUs with blown silencers.
Seeing the ballast through the lavatory
Guards vans to segregate disabled people.


No seat is too firm for anyone with a pert or muscular bottom.

 

[Skipness]

Some operators understand it's not difficult because that's precisely what they do. Seen it on CrossCountry, GWR, SWR, ATW, EMT...

Earlier this this year I was on a packed Cross Country HST on Gold Cup day at Cheltenham. Once the hordes had got off a train staff employee came through with plastic bags to collect the discarded beer cans and bottles, several dozen of kg. worth of recycling!!

 

[yorksrob]

Passenger comfort on trains is just getting better and better.

Just think of all the things we no longer have:-

Rape compartments on the commuter lines into London with no access to lavatories
Awful shoulder height "wings" on seats on Cross Country services
3+2 bus style seating with no arm-rests
Backrests that barely reach the sternum
Manual doors (internal and external)
Misted-up windows
Smoking carriages
Water pishing through open windows
Long gangways, dripping with water, between carriages that you can see through.
Carriages stinking of exhaust fumes on elderly DMUs with blown silencers.
Seeing the ballast through the lavatory
Guards vans to segregate disabled people.


No seat is too firm for anyone with a pert or muscular bottom.

The railway is not just for gym bunnies

I find it ironic that you quote us no longer having suburban compartments without access to a lavetory, when we are about to introduce brand new trains on lines such as London to Reading without any toilets ! (and these won't even have lovely bouncy cushions).

 

[AM9]

Me being 6" I must say legroom has got better on most trains. I'm also glad seats have got higher. ...

Wow! If you are only 6 inches then you are travelling in luxury. Even higher seats must be even more difficult than years ago.

 

[mugam4]

Just like flying, if you like legroom, complimentary refreshments then pay more fly with BA, if you want low fares then fly with Ryanair.
Sadly it seems TOCs are choosing the no-frills Ryanair approach but yet charging premium over priced fares and passengers have no other option.

It shows how things have changed in the (commercial) aviation industry compared to the (franchised) rail industry where Ryanair have better punctuality and legroom than British Airways, and both charge for food and drink.
Admittedly there's less room for competition in the rail industry. But Ryanair have shown that there's no reason why budget can't be of "decent" quality - trains aren't budget.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think it goes beyond just passenger comfort. What we are surely seeing, with 'ironing board' super skinny seats, removal of proper catering on long distance trains and the slow march of the truly awful 'till roll' ticket stock, is the beginning of the railway austerity age. The train that revolutionised intercity travel and saved the railway is to be replaced by a successor that offers hard seats and tea from a trolley. A sad illustration of where we are.

NR might have tens of millions to throw about, but only because everything it does costs an astronomical amount. At the point of real world delivery, those millions get very little. We're seeing electrification projects crippled and infrastructure reliability in many places is dire and getting no better. Of course we have the government's grand plans for massive nationwide staff culls, and even liveries are going bargain basement, with Thameslink and GA setting new standards of post-privatistion dullness. It seems the bean counters have killed off flair and spirit, and we're now in the age of the 'bare minimum' railway. A shame.

I couldn't agree more.

Regarding catering, contrast with DB, who continue to offer a full restaurant service on most Intercity trains (similar to GNER rather than the grandiose GWR Pullman offering) and are even enlargening the restaurant/buffet as part of the ICE3 refurbishment. They state that catering makes a loss, but that offering a quality hot food service is part of the overall Intercity package. And yes, their Intercity services do make a healthy profit.

 

[Goldfish62]

It shows how things have changed in the (commercial) aviation industry compared to the (franchised) rail industry where Ryanair have better punctuality and legroom than British Airways, and both charge for food and drink.
Admittedly there's less room for competition in the rail industry. But Ryanair have shown that there's no reason why budget can't be of "decent" quality - trains aren't budget.

Not my experience of Ryanair. They've got the worst legroom of any airline I've travelled on. You'd be better citing Easybus and Wizz, who IMO are on a par with BA - except on price.

 

[mugam4]

Not my experience of Ryanair. They've got the worst legroom of any airline I've travelled on. You'd be better citing Easybus and Wizz, who IMO are on a par with BA - except on price.

Ryanair's newest and refurbished aircraft have a seat pitch of 31", easyJet and BA's Airbii are moving towards 28"-29". It surprised me too - I was recently on one of Ryanair's newer jets and they are noticeably roomy and have a nicer atmosphere than competitors - beaten only by Norwegian's new 737s (with the same Sky design but a nicer interior), in my opinion.
Here's the best I could find on train seat space.. but the data is not very comparable. With most European short-haul flights at 1-2 hours, do Ryanair beat the TOCs?!

 

[yorksrob]

But Ryanair have shown that there's no reason why budget can't be of "decent" quality - trains aren't budget.

Assuming the plane actually turns up.

Actually, many of my journeys on the railway could be described as "budget" in terms of advance fares.

 

[greyman42]

I’ve not been on an 800 yet but I’ve heard others say they’re comfortable so I will wait to judge.

On a mk 3 I’d rather sit on one of the GNER Mallard seats in standard class (now refurbed by VTEC) than one of the original seats (which we still have on the EMT sets VTEC borrow).

I’m generally happy with the Mallard 1st class, but I did slightly prefer the original mk 4 1st class as it had great head support ideal for a morning snooze.

So in general I’d not say that modern seating needs to be bad. Some is better, some is worse

I find the EMT sets (VTEC) the most comfortable on the network. The problem with seat comfort on modern trains is simply that they do not put a spring unit in the seats anymore. They just use hard wearing foam. Not very comfortable.

 

[Goldfish62]

Ryanair's newest and refurbished aircraft have a seat pitch of 31", easyJet and BA's Airbii are moving towards 28"-29". It surprised me too - I was recently on one of Ryanair's newer jets and they are noticeably roomy and have a nicer atmosphere than competitors - beaten only by Norwegian's new 737s (with the same Sky design but a nicer interior), in my opinion.
Here's the best I could find on train seat space.. but the data is not very comparable. With most European short-haul flights at 1-2 hours, do Ryanair beat the TOCs?!

Ah, OK. Thanks for the info!

 

[CN75]

I couldn't agree more.

Regarding catering, contrast with DB, who continue to offer a full restaurant service on most Intercity trains (similar to GNER rather than the grandiose GWR Pullman offering) and are even enlargening the restaurant/buffet as part of the ICE3 refurbishment. They state that catering makes a loss, but that offering a quality hot food service is part of the overall Intercity package. And yes, their Intercity services do make a healthy profit.

The difference is DB have proper competition for vast high speed international networks from airlines, and besides that have a completely different government attitude to railways than the UK. DB only made a profit in the last year after several years (after staff cuts among other things). It’s still massively in debt (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL5N1GT407)

 

[Harbornite]

Unless you board at the starting station, the train will almost certainly be full of litter when you get to your seat. That's true even when traveling in first class.

Not really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Think the same can can said for the Class 16x series.

Indeed so, and the 323. 350/2 has the bays aligned but not the airlines (the spacing of these is very, very good for a high density unit). And the 2+2 all tables (Brighton Express layout) Electrostars are fully aligned.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Seriously are trains increasingly less comfortable than they used to be?

I would say it's mixed. Compared to - say - 30 years ago:

Good for comfort:

• Better suspension / more comfortable ride.
• Quieter
• Power sockets becoming common
• Smoking completely banned
• Doors are typically further from seats
• Electronic-controlled doors - easier to open and close (and safer)
• Better quality audio for announcements
• I think trains are cleaner (windows are definitely cleaner)
• Fewer trains that you can't walk through
• More toilets (and you can now use them in stations)
• More thought about needs of people with disabilities (although still a long way to go on that)

Bad for comfort:

• Trains generally busier
• Trains with all-longitudinal seats
• Seats are often harder
• Smaller windows on some trains / more seats without a good window view
• Trains without openable windows

(Obviously all the above are what is typical, there are going to be exceptions).

 

[yorksrob]

• More toilets (and you can now use them in stations)

I think more trains have toilets, however there seem to be fewer per carriage now.

 

[Essan]

If all those who dont like modern coaches stopped using them, the resultant decline in passenger numbers would mean we could all have a window seat at a table